Israeli-Palestinian conflict (10 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

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Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,284
They are somehow trying to block its passage while he is turning quite slowly, and he speeds up just when they are infront of him. They are heated enough to not think clearly in that scenario, but obvious the acceleration took them by suprise.
 

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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #8,902
    Israel: Grant Status Long Denied to Arab Village in Central Israel

    (Jerusalem) - The Israeli government should grant legal status to a 60-year-old village with a population of about 600 Palestinian-Israeli citizens, Human Rights Watch said today. Authorities have refused to recognize the village as residential, even as they approved an immediately adjacent residential development for Jewish Israelis. The authorities have given no justification for the difference in treatment.

    Dahmash, approximately 20 kilometers from Tel Aviv between the cities of Ramle and Lod in central Israel, has been inhabited since at least 1951, and its residents are Israeli citizens. The authorities refuse to rezone the land as residential - although they have done so in neighboring areas - and refuse to provide basic services such as paved roads, sewage, health facilities, kindergartens, and schools, despite numerous petitions by residents. Instead, the authorities consider almost every one of the 70 houses "illegal," and 13 are under threat of demolition. A court is to decide the issue on October 11, 2010.

    "The 600 people of Dahmash are treated as if they don't exist, while Jewish towns are developed nearby in a way that threatens Dahmash residents' access to their homes and lands," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. "Planning authorities should end this discriminatory treatment, immediately recognize Dahmash's residential status, and provide the basic services denied for decades."

    The prohibition of discrimination, which includes any unjustified differential treatment that has the effect of impairing the equal recognition of human rights on the grounds of race, ethnicity, or religion, is one of the most fundamental prohibitions under international human rights law.

    Plans for a highway interchange in the area and construction plans that local officials say are intended for residential developments for Jewish Israelis in the area would block almost all existing entrances to Dahmash.

    The lack of basic services such as drainage and sewage systems leads to persistent flooding of Dahmash's unpaved roads in winter. The main entrance to Dahmash is a gravel road from Ramle, where Dahmash residents receive some services and where the 200 Dahmash children attend schools. Residents told Human Rights Watch that when it rains the children have to walk through knee-high water on their way to the school bus. The village has no waste disposal services, despite residents' petitions to the Lod Valley Regional Council, the local government with jurisdiction over Dahmash.

    The village has no green space or outdoor playgrounds. In 2006, a nongovernmental organization donated playground equipment, but once it was erected the Israeli Land Administration issued demolition orders on the grounds that the playground was constructed without a permit. On February 10, 2007, the Ramle District Court rejected a petition by Dahmash residents to cancel the demolition order, although the authorities have not yet removed the equipment.

    The 70 homes in Dahmash are built on 160 dunams (40 acres), most of which the Israeli government granted to Palestinians in the early 1950s as compensation for lands from which they had been displaced during the 1948 armed conflict, and to which the Israeli government prohibited them from returning. But the lands are officially designated for agricultural use only, and the planning authorities have refused to zone Dahmash for residential construction.

    Many towns and neighborhoods in central Israel, including the new residential development bordering Dahmash, were also originally zoned for agricultural use, but authorities rezoned those lands to allow them to expand and created plans that permitted residential construction. Neither regional nor national authorities have provided such a plan for Dahmash. In the last few years both Ramle and Lod have constructed residential complexes restricted to military career personnel and religious Jews.

    Dahmash residents paid for a plan and submitted it to the relevant planning committees in 2006, but the authorities shelved the plan until a 2008 court ruling obligated them to discuss it. On July 5, 2010, the Central Regional Committee for Planning and Construction rejected the plan, saying that it "sees no justification for the creation of a new village in central Israel." The planning body said that only the Interior Ministry could create a new village, and that it did not want to "legitimize illegal construction."

    Since 1948, more than 900 Jewish villages and cities have been established in Israel, while the only new Arab towns allowed in 60 years have been seven towns that the government planned and constructed for Bedouin residents of the Negev. Many Palestinian-Israelis face restrictions in planning. Shatil's Mixed Cities Project, a nongovernmental organization, estimates that more than 70 percent of Arab homes in Ramle and Lod have no legal status. Official figures are not readily available.

    Discrimination is prohibited by international human rights law, notably the Convention on the Elimination on All forms of Racial Discrimination, ratified by Israel in 1979. The Convention defines discrimination as any "distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights." The committee of experts that monitors and interprets this convention has stated that differential treatment will be considered discrimination if it is not justified, taking into account the purposes of the Convention.

    "Israel should finally make good on its grant of land ownership to Dahmash residents by ceasing its discriminatory refusal to recognize their right to live on it," Stork said.

    Access to the Village Blocked

    A plan to build 888 housing units at the entrance to Ramle would block the main access road to Dahmash. The 145-dunam (35 acre) Maccabi District, which the Ramle mayor, Yoel Lavi, has promoted as Ramle's "flagship new neighborhood," would border Dahmash. It was also originally zoned for agricultural use but was re-designated in July 2006 for residential use.

    Lavi, who sits on the planning committee that rejected Dahmash's plan, told Israeli television in 2004 that the Maccabi District was not meant for Arabs because allowing Palestinian-Israeli citizens to live there would "harm the ability to market the project since people won't want to live there." He said in the same interview that "93 percent of the Jewish population clearly prefers not to live in a mixed building." The project has not begun to advertise the homes, as it is not yet complete.

    Dahmash residents petitioned the planning body to halt the construction, but the committee rejected the petition in 2006, and the courts upheld the planning body's decision in 2007 and again in 2010.

    The Maccabi District would cut Dahmash off from the city of Ramle, where Dahmash residents receive services. It would leave open only one roadway into Dahmash, through Lod, which would lengthen the drive into the village and require crossing traffic and eight railroad tracks. A professional opinion submitted by a transportation expert to the court during the 2007 challenge to the Maccabi District maintained that the Lod road, which is unpaved and passes through fields, is unfit for emergency vehicles. The legal adviser to the Lod Valley regional council told a Knesset Internal Affairs committee meeting in January 2007 that the national master plan for Lod had designated the Dahmash area to become a highway interchange.

    Addresses Denied

    Israeli citizens receive services such as education, welfare, health, and postal services in the municipality where they are registered. But Dahmash residents are not permitted to list their actual address on their Israeli identification cards, since their village does not exist in the population registry.

    Dahmash is in the area covered by the Lod Valley Regional Council, which oversees nine Jewish towns but has no registered Arab residents. It has no Arab-Israeli schools, which follow a separate curriculum from Jewish schools.

    Thus, Dahmash residents have registered in nearby Ramle, a separate municipality in which 22.5 percent of the residents are Arab Israelis, according to official figures. Most Dahmash residents have been obliged to list their official addresses on Ha'Heshmonaim Street, Ramle, which borders Dahmash, even though they do not live on that street.

    "What are we asking for?" Arafat Ismayil, the village spokesman, told Human Rights Watch. "An identity, an address, a life of dignity. You can see the discrimination with your eyes. They are allowed, we are not."

    Barring Children From Schools

    Ramle has tried to stop providing Dahmash residents some services, especially education. In 2005, Ramle refused to continue providing transportation from Dahmash to its schools; in 2006, the city tried to bar Dahmash children entering first grade from registering at its schools; and in 2009, Ramle ended a disabled two-year-old Dahmash resident's placement in a school and halted the child's transportation. Each time, Dahmash residents petitioned the courts, which ruled in favor of the children. Human Rights Watch documented in 2001 the discrimination in the Israeli education system between Palestinian-Israeli citizens and Jewish-Israeli citizens.

    After Ramle discontinued transportation to its schools in September 2005, the Tel Aviv District Court ruled in November in favor of Dahmash residents and obligated the Lod Valley Regional Council to finance the transportation, a decision later backed by the Supreme Court. The court also ruled in 2009 that the regional council had to re-assume educational responsibility for a

    two-year-old, who had been provided for by the city of Ramle up to that point, and to provide transportation for a 14-year-old disabled child to a special education facility in the city of Rishon Le'Zion and register him as a Lod Valley Regional Council resident. He remains the only Dahmash resident whose Israeli identification card officially lists him as a Lod Valley Regional Council resident, although Dahmash is not mentioned.

    After Ramle tried to keep Dahmash children from registering for first grade in 2006, even though their siblings had been attending the schools for at least 10 years, the Tel Aviv District Court ruled in May that the municipality must allow the children's continued registration.

    Zoning and Demolition Orders

    In 2004, Israeli authorities ordered the demolition of 17 houses in Dahmash on the grounds that they were built on "agricultural" lands and thus illegal. Most of the other 53 homes in the village had been built in the 1950s, when the area was still zoned under a regional plan, "R/6", from the time of the British mandate. Three were built before 1948 and thus maintain a "legal" status. Subsequently the Israeli government replaced R/6 with a master plan that designated the area as agricultural land on which residential construction was prohibited. According to the National Unit for Construction Oversight, the village now has 120 illegal structures, including the 70 homes.

    In March 2006, Israeli police demolished four "illegal" homes in Dahmash. The owners of the other 13 homes are still contesting the demolition orders in court.

    In 2005, Menashe Moshe, head of the Lod Valley Regional Council, told Israel's business paper, Globes, that while "the land does belong to the residents," Dahmash "does not exist" as a residential community because the land was zoned for agricultural use. Moshe said he rejected the residents' request to become an agricultural town, similar to the nine other towns in his council, because "the residents are not farmers and their land is not suited for agriculture." However, Moshe accepts Dahmash residents' agricultural taxes, which are submitted for "fields near Nir-Zvi," the nearest Jewish town. He refuses to accept payment of residential taxes, residents told Human Rights Watch.

    After the demolitions in 2006, residents paid for the "detailed plan" required for residential construction that planning authorities had provided to neighboring Jewish communities but not to Dahmash. It included a request to change Dahmash's zoning designation to permit residential building. Residents submitted it for approval to the district planning authorities in Ramle on July 17, 2006, but the authorities ignored the submission for more than 18 months. A planner from the regional planning committee told a Knesset committee hearing on Dahmash in January 2007 that plans usually receive a response within two to three weeks.

    On January 30, 2008, the Tel Aviv-Jaffa District Court for Procedural Affairs found that the committee had "abstained from discussing the plan" and ordered the committee to discuss it. The judgment reminded the regional planning authorities that the definition of the village's land as agricultural land "is not a decree from heaven" and that "the Israel planning and construction law allows for rezoning land and changing its designation."

    The planning committee finally discussed the plan on July 5, 2010, but rejected it on the grounds that authorization would imply the creation of a new town, which only the Interior Ministry can do. On August 9, 2010, the Interior Ministry approved the residents' request to appeal the rejection to the national planning committee.

    The regional committee also rejected an alternative option that would have allowed Dahmash residents to own their homes "legally" by including Dahmash as a neighborhood of Ramle or Lod. Lavi, Ramle's mayor, told a journalist in 2006 that his solution to the illegal building in Dahmash was to "take two D10 bulldozers, the kind the IDF uses in the Golan Heights, two border police units to secure the area, and go from one side to the other [...] when you give the first shock with the crane everyone runs from their houses, don't worry."

    In January 2007, while planning authorities were supposed to be considering the residents' submission of the plan, the Lod police tried to demolish some of the 13 other homes. Residents prevented the demolitions by locking themselves inside their homes. On April 11, 2010, board inspectors from the central region and the Lod Valley Regional Council, accompanied by police, informed Dahmash residents that the demolition orders against the 13 homes would be executed within days. The Central District Court later ordered a suspension of the demolitions, saying that it would decide the fate of the buildings on October 11.

    "We live in constant fear that tomorrow we will no longer have a home," Ismayil said.

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/10/08/israel-grant-status-long-denied-arab-village-central-israel
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    Let me get this straight, Seven, Burke and co?

    When an Israeli hits Palestinian children with his car, you blame the children for not getting out of the way, and you put no blame on the Israeli. But when a Hamas missile injures Israeli civilians, Hamas are terrorists?
     

    Alen

    Ѕenior Аdmin
    Apr 2, 2007
    52,551
    It's hard to judge here.

    You see two kids, maybe 12 years old or so, throwing rocks on every car passing. Why are they doing that?
    Is it just a game? I don't think so. It seems like some protest with more people, some even making videos.
    Did these youngsters suffer so much and because they can't handle to live like that anymore they decided, by themselves, to show their anger and protest by throwing rocks at Israeli cars?
    Isn't it more likely that someone older told them to go on the streets and throw rocks, risking their life? If so, I wonder where that person was when the kids were left unprotected on the street. Maybe he was the one taking the video?

    Then again, until I'm in the skin of those kids who undoubtedly live an awful life and are afraid for their life and their home, I can't judge the kids and certainly I can't and won't call them little terrorists as some here and the one who put the video on youtube did.

    Then you have the driver. I wondered what will I do in his place and my answer is I don't know. Only when put in similar situation you will know what to do or you will do it following an instinct.
    Now, maybe that was an instinct of a cold blooded murderer who hates the Palestinians. Maybe an instinct of a father who had his small kids in the car and who saw people throwing rocks on his kids.
    I know for sure that my fear will be different if I am the driver and I'm alone in the car, compared to being the driver and have my sons there. And in fear, one can be unpredictable.

    The final point is that it's easy to judge from safety and it's completely different to be there and live the moment.

    Also, I don't find acceptable the answer : "He shouldn't be there at first place".
    Well, he's there and that doesn't mean that it's justified to try to hurt him.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,564
    The Palestinians should just accept and obey. If they were smart they would just kill themselves so that Israel won't have to do it. But if they don't, well...
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,564
    Let me get this straight, Seven, Burke and co?

    When an Israeli hits Palestinian children with his car, you blame the children for not getting out of the way, and you put no blame on the Israeli. But when a Hamas missile injures Israeli civilians, Hamas are terrorists?
    Indeed, that is the general thinking, rationalized by the fact that the Palestinians have no sovereignty or suitable military.
     

    Alen

    Ѕenior Аdmin
    Apr 2, 2007
    52,551
    The Palestinians should just accept and obey. If they were smart they would just kill themselves so that Israel won't have to do it. But if they don't, well...
    They shouldn't send kids to do the dirty job. It sends a wrong message to the world and opportunity to guys like Italia Todd to post this:


     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    I don't know Alen, maybe its just me, but i just can't see any way hitting two kids on the street can be rationalized. If someone threw stones at your car in the middle of the road, are you saying theres a possibility that you'd run them over?
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    They shouldn't send kids to do the dirty job. It sends a wrong message to the world and opportunity to guys like Italia Todd to post this:


    You're speculating that someone told them to go do that and as a consequence blaming the Palestinians, which is fair, and its a safe assumption to make. But you don't need to speculate about the Israeli, right in front of you, you can see him run over the two kids in cold blood.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,564
    But isn't all that pretty asinine? No matter who Israel kills, they can just say the victim was used as a human shield by terrorists. You couldn't think up a better license to kill because anybody could be a terrorist.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,564
    Like those pics of those three children with center-mass sniper hits. For some reason, I just can't believe that somebody is going to be trying to kill an IDF soldier while holding a fucking baby. Does that shit make any sense?
     

    Alen

    Ѕenior Аdmin
    Apr 2, 2007
    52,551
    I don't know Alen, maybe its just me, but i just can't see any way hitting two kids on the street can be rationalized. If someone threw stones at your car in the middle of the road, are you saying theres a possibility that you'd run them over?
    That's my stance too from this chair. I don't see how can someone go hit kids with a car. But here and there isn't the same.
    Right now I don't think I'm capable of taking the life of someone who did nothing wrong to me or the people I love, but I have no idea what will I do if my country starts a war against a neighbor next year, they mobilize me and put me on the battlefield. I might shoot and kill someone who only defends his country. I will probably see it as "it's me or him".
    Maybe that's how that driver saw it. My kids or their kids. That's a very short video. We don't see what happens before that and if that car was being attacked down the road too.
    It's easy to look at it from here as "He runs over two terrorists" or as "He's a blood thirsty Zionist".
     

    Alen

    Ѕenior Аdmin
    Apr 2, 2007
    52,551
    But isn't all that pretty asinine? No matter who Israel kills, they can just say the victim was used as a human shield by terrorists. You couldn't think up a better license to kill because anybody could be a terrorist.
    I think that there is more than enough evidence of Israeli soldiers or settlers killing a completely innocent person who did nothing to provoke them. The Israeli can use whichever excuse they want there, but I'm sure the majority won't buy it.

    It's different for pictures or videos when the Israeli are obviously attacked, as they are on that video. Saying that "the weapon is just a stone" is a silly excuse. You can easily break my head and kill me with a stone. The car is not a weapon too. But I can kill you if I run over you with it.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    You're speculating that someone told them to go do that and as a consequence blaming the Palestinians, which is fair, and its a safe assumption to make. But you don't need to speculate about the Israeli, right in front of you, you can see him run over the two kids in cold blood.
    Just because I'm a pedant I have to quibble here, because if the kids were hitting his car with rocks then in all likelihood his blood was not cold but hot.

    To paraphrase what Alen is saying, the interesting question is not "what would you do in cold blood" but "what would you do if you were so filled with rage you didn't know what to do with yourself". And you can bs yourself as much as you want, but the truth is that you don't know the answer to that. Noone does. It's a scary thing to think about.
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    Cool. It goes both ways, the next time a Palestinian does something to an Israeli kid, i hope all of you are this compassionate and understanding.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    Just for info, this took place in Silwan today. This neighbourhood was always Arab 100% until the Israeli soldiers came before less than one year bringing with them the most extremist jews that think they have the right to demolish all races in the world but them because they are "the chosen people". Where shall they put those extremists in the Arab neibourhood? They forced the Palestinians out of their houses and threw away their furniture and kids.

    Watch this for example:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIMiX8l7mTo

    So, this can not be considered as an attack by kids on the stupid settler. He has no right to go to that place because he stole a house owned by Palestinians for sure, and the small children have the whole right to send him to "heaven" by any weapon available. Not only rocks.
    No, not for sure, the guy in the car could be an Afrikaaner visiting for the weekend because he misses Apartheid.
    As an American I understand where the Palestinians are coming from. This issue will never be setteled though time for a east-west germany situation ?
    :lol:

    You don't understand anything. Hell, I consider myself pretty well read on some of this stuff, but until I have to grab my weapons and hit the street to kill my perception of an invader, I will not understand.

    And I am an American.
    According to this opinion,Even the Americans are thieves.
    Ohh, maybe the worst.
    There are no Americans. They are all just immigrants over there.
    ....true
    Let me get this straight, Seven, Burke and co?

    When an Israeli hits Palestinian children with his car, you blame the children for not getting out of the way, and you put no blame on the Israeli. But when a Hamas missile injures Israeli civilians, Hamas are terrorists?
    I saw children getting hit by a car, it could have been in Romania for all I know, and you have to admit that as well, it's 20 seconds of video. I could recreate that in my home town. As to what you are asking, anytime civilians are INTENTIONALLY killed, it is terrorism. Non-combatants should not be touched.
    It's hard to judge here.

    You see two kids, maybe 12 years old or so, throwing rocks on every car passing. Why are they doing that?
    Is it just a game? I don't think so. It seems like some protest with more people, some even making videos.
    Did these youngsters suffer so much and because they can't handle to live like that anymore they decided, by themselves, to show their anger and protest by throwing rocks at Israeli cars?
    Isn't it more likely that someone older told them to go on the streets and throw rocks, risking their life? If so, I wonder where that person was when the kids were left unprotected on the street. Maybe he was the one taking the video?

    Then again, until I'm in the skin of those kids who undoubtedly live an awful life and are afraid for their life and their home, I can't judge the kids and certainly I can't and won't call them little terrorists as some here and the one who put the video on youtube did.

    Then you have the driver. I wondered what will I do in his place and my answer is I don't know. Only when put in similar situation you will know what to do or you will do it following an instinct.
    Now, maybe that was an instinct of a cold blooded murderer who hates the Palestinians. Maybe an instinct of a father who had his small kids in the car and who saw people throwing rocks on his kids.
    I know for sure that my fear will be different if I am the driver and I'm alone in the car, compared to being the driver and have my sons there. And in fear, one can be unpredictable.

    The final point is that it's easy to judge from safety and it's completely different to be there and live the moment.

    Also, I don't find acceptable the answer : "He shouldn't be there at first place".
    Well, he's there and that doesn't mean that it's justified to try to hurt him.
    Agree.
    The Palestinians should just accept and obey. If they were smart they would just kill themselves so that Israel won't have to do it. But if they don't, well...
    :lol2:
    Like those pics of those three children with center-mass sniper hits. For some reason, I just can't believe that somebody is going to be trying to kill an IDF soldier while holding a fucking baby. Does that shit make any sense?
    ....look at you.
    The Israeli propaganda machine can make you believe anything. They're smart, smarter than Palestinians, that we have to admit.
    Of course they are, they don't wipe their asses with their hands, they use humus.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    Just because I'm a pedant I have to quibble here, because if the kids were hitting his car with rocks then in all likelihood his blood was not cold but hot.

    To paraphrase what Alen is saying, the interesting question is not "what would you do in cold blood" but "what would you do if you were so filled with rage you didn't know what to do with yourself". And you can bs yourself as much as you want, but the truth is that you don't know the answer to that. Noone does. It's a scary thing to think about.
    :agree:
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    Cool. It goes both ways, the next time a Palestinian does something to an Israeli kid, i hope all of you are this compassionate and understanding.
    In all likelihood I won't even read about it. This thread will outlive the forum's existence because nothing ever changes in this conflict.

    But now I have to add another disclaimer to every post because you can't see the difference between a general point and a "with us or against us" point.

    ^^ (refers to the post of mine before this one) Not justifying the murder of humans.
     

    Gamaro

    The Arabian Knight
    Aug 6, 2007
    1,289
    The Israeli propaganda machine can make you believe anything. They're smart, smarter than Palestinians, that we have to admit.
    And that's what Karen Armstrong said "Muslims should try to use the media they have got to learn to lobby like the Jews, and they have got to have a Muslim lobby"

    BTW,not all the westerns are fools and believe anything said by the Israelis,but many of them are into that dirty game themselves.
     

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