Israeli-Palestinian conflict (87 Viewers)

[Seven]

Israel do have people from all over the world but the country is a middle eastern and not a western country. Its just as if an Asian comes to America - It doesnt make America an asian country...

Please enlighten us western peasants on the complexities of things like "war," "sovereignty," and "nationality," concepts we have never encountered before oh wise Orgut

I tried but you peasant dont want to be enlightened... and dont make it a general thing - You might know about war and other around your country but you certainly dont know anything about mine...
and its not about western and eastern - Its about knowledge about the specific thing we are talking about which is Israel and the Palestinians.
Some of you made it about Western Eastern and there was also a ridiculous one who came with suggestions of the Eurovision like it has something to do with the current situation between the two sides.

Yeah I know you dont like to hear it but in this specific subject - You are definitely ignorant.
You could be brilliant in other things (I dont know) but obviously not on this one.

It's in your own post why Eurovision and UEFA are very relevant.

You're right. Israel is not a western country. It is not a European country. It is Middle Eastern.

The reason you pretend to be European in sports and entertainment is that you can't get along with your neighbours. And frankly I'm fed up. Why do I have to pay tax money for extra security measures when Belgium play Israel? Why does money from the Champions League not go to Anderlecht, but to Maccabi Haifa? Israel aren't European, they should not be in the competition. Oh, but then, you say, Israel would be an international pariah, because our neighbours don't like us and this would limit our economic growth. So what? That is not my problem. That is Israel's problem. For months you've been saying you stand alone. Well, then stand the fuck alone.

 

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[Ronn]

Seriously that “you can’t get along with your neighbors” argument is not a very strong one. Middle East is an absolute shit show and nobody gets along with nobody. The level of cruelty and violence is not reflected evenly. Overall a lot of stupidity in the western media about the region.

 

[Seven]

Seriously that “you can’t get along with your neighbors” argument is not a very strong one. Middle East is an absolute shit show and nobody gets along with nobody. The level of cruelty and violence is not reflected evenly. Overall a lot of stupidity in the western media about the region.

I'm not saying they have to get along.

I'm saying that that should imply that maybe they don't play international football. It's not Europe's problem.

 

[Tomice]

It's in your own post why Eurovision and UEFA are very relevant.

You're right. Israel is not a western country. It is not a European country. It is Middle Eastern.

The reason you pretend to be European in sports and entertainment is that you can't get along with your neighbours. And frankly I'm fed up. Why do I have to pay tax money for extra security measures when Belgium play Israel? Why does money from the Champions League not go to Anderlecht, but to Maccabi Haifa? Israel aren't European, they should not be in the competition. Oh, but then, you say, Israel would be an international pariah, because our neighbours don't like us and this would limit our economic growth. So what? That is not my problem. That is Israel's problem. For months you've been saying you stand alone. Well, then stand the fuck alone.

Our "neighbors" can't get along between themselves, they have been killing each other a 100 fold then our entire conflict. And if you claim that you "put" us here then what are you crying about? take some responsibility.

 

[Seven]

Our "neighbors" can't get along between themselves, they have been killing each other a 100 fold then our entire conflict. And if you claim that you "put" us here then what are you crying about? take some responsibility.

You stand alone.

Fine. Stop pestering us. Play among yourselves. That's all I'm saying.

But no, you want the UEFA money. You want the European market. You want all sorts of benefits other countries do not have. For then to turn around and say we offer nothing and cry antisemitism every fucking chance you get. Well, my view is simple, we should just treat Israel the same way we treat all other countries.

 

[Ronn]

I'm not saying they have to get along.

I'm saying that that should imply that maybe they don't play international football. It's not Europe's problem.

But that reasoning implies that those neighbors are right just because they made a unanimous decision. Mobs are not always right. The fact that they don’t get along do not prove anything and cannot be a justification of Israel being deprived of international football.

 

[Seven]

But that reasoning implies that those neighbors are right just because they made a unanimous decision. Mobs are not always right. The fact that they don’t get along do not prove anything and cannot be a justification of Israel being deprived of international football.

Not really. It just implies that Israel can't play international football. And maybe that's tough on Israel. But that doesn't mean we, as Europeans, have to allow Israel access to UEFA.

Again, time and time again Israel repeats that it stands alone, that it fights without allies. Fine by me. But then please stop draining our resources.

 

[Tomice]

You stand alone.

Fine. Stop pestering us. Play among yourselves. That's all I'm saying.

But no, you want the UEFA money. You want the European market. You want all sorts of benefits other countries do not have. For then to turn around and say we offer nothing and cry antisemitism every fucking chance you get. Well, my view is simple, we should just treat Israel the same way we treat all other countries.

We have mutually beneficial trade agreement and other agreements with the EU just like many, many other non-member countries. You don't want to treat us like any other country, you want to treat us worse. And that's fine but be honest about it.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Not really. It just implies that Israel can't play international football. And maybe that's tough on Israel. But that doesn't mean we, as Europeans, have to allow Israel access to UEFA.

Again, time and time again Israel repeats that it stands alone, that it fights without allies. Fine by me. But then please stop draining our resources.

When you think you are special, you always expect special treatment, being treated fairly becomes criminal.

 

[Tomice]

Not really. It just implies that Israel can't play international football. And maybe that's tough on Israel. But that doesn't mean we, as Europeans, have to allow Israel access to UEFA.

Again, time and time again Israel repeats that it stands alone, that it fights without allies. Fine by me. But then please stop draining our resources.

What resources? UEFA prize money lol?

 

[Seven]

We have mutually beneficial trade agreement and other agreements with the EU just like many, many other non-member countries. You don't want to treat us like any other country, you want to treat us worse. And that's fine but be honest about it.

I cannot believe how indoctrinated you are. I'd give real money to spend a day in Israel and understand your media.

There is nothing wrong with mutually beneficial trade agreements, though before you were of the idea you didn't need Europe at all so it surprises me you admit they exist. But I am deeply against granting Israel access to UEFA, simply because it is incapable of resolving the problems with Palestine and its neighbours. If anything this access is only further incentive to not even try to come to a solution.

 

[Ronn]

Not really. It just implies that Israel can't play international football. And maybe that's tough on Israel. But that doesn't mean we, as Europeans, have to allow Israel access to UEFA.

Again, time and time again Israel repeats that it stands alone, that it fights without allies. Fine by me. But then please stop draining our resources.

Perhaps it’s a bad example of the broader point you’re trying to make. Israel being in UEFA hardly drains any resources. Australia is part of AFC and it takes 15 hours to get there from some of the middle eastern countries.

 

[Seven]

When you think you are special, you always expect special treatment, being treated fairly becomes criminal.

Exactly.

And you know what? It's not good for Israel either. It's like a spoilt child. It doesn't grow up happy.

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Perhaps it’s a bad example of the broader point you’re trying to make. Israel being in UEFA hardly drains any resources. Australia is part of AFC and it takes 15 hours to get there from some of the middle eastern countries.

It's just one example really. And of course the resources are plentiful. But the point is that Israel just grabs them and expects special treatment, but offers nothing in return.

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What resources? UEFA prize money lol?

Well, for starters.

But you tell me why I should have to accept Brussels isn't safe during a game, when that game is only happening because you want special treatment? Why do I have to suffer because of this?

 

[Tomice]

I cannot believe how indoctrinated you are. I'd give real money to spend a day in Israel and understand your media.

There is nothing wrong with mutually beneficial trade agreements, though before you were of the idea you didn't need Europe at all so it surprises me you admit they exist. But I am deeply against granting Israel access to UEFA, simply because it is incapable of resolving the problems with Palestine and its neighbours. If anything this access is only further incentive to not even try to come to a solution.

I talked about you specifically wanting to treat us worse, not Europe in general. I also don't think you speak on their behalf, same as I don't. Europe is not a monolith. You said we have benefits other don't have, what are they? are the only ones? No, that was my point. Hence you want to treat us worse, specifically.

Anyway, it's a strawmen argument, which you are very partial to it seems. I never said we don't need trade partners or collaborating with anyone, You want us boycotting the EU? are you serious? I said, and I stand by it, that the EU isn't an ally. The US is an ally, tangible ally. Please explain to me how the EU is? all you have are feelings, you have yet to back anything with numbers or facts. Draining your resources? again, how? What is the cost of Israel to you? really asking

To your second point, and this is probably the crux of the issue and why we will never agree. To me it's exactly the other way around, we are incapable of resolving the problems with Palestinians because Europe and others are the ones incentivizing the Palestinians to not resolve the issue. You want to talk about Palestinians Aid money? UNRAW? The PLO?

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But you tell me why I should have to accept Brussels isn't safe during a game, when that game is only happening because you want special treatment? Why do I have to suffer because of this?

Maybe think twice before bringing in immigrants? I'm pretty sure a 3rd generation Belgian isn't going to blow himself up.

And as you said, you put us here, take some responsibility.

 

[Seven]

I talked about you specifically wanting to treat us worse, not Europe in general. I also don't think you speak on their behalf, same as I don't. Europe is not a monolith. You said we have benefits other don't have, what are they? are the only ones? No, that was my point. Hence you want to treat us worse, specifically.

Anyway, it's a strawmen argument, which you are very partial to it seems. I never said we don't need trade partners or collaborating with anyone, You want us boycotting the EU? are you serious? I said, and I stand by it, that the EU isn't an ally. The US is an ally, tangible ally. Please explain to me how the EU is? all you have are feelings, you have yet to back anything with numbers or facts. Draining your resources? again, how? What is the cost of Israel to you? really asking

To your second point, and this is probably the crux of the issue and why we will never agree. To me it's exactly the other way around, we are incapable of resolving the problems with Palestinians because Europe and others are the ones incentivizing the Palestinians to not resolve the issue. You want to talk about Palestinians Aid money? UNRAW? The PLO?

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Maybe think twice before bringing in immigrants? I'm pretty sure a 3rd generation Belgian isn't going to blow himself up.

And as you said, you put us here, take some responsibility.

You need to stop it with the persecution complex.

If you cannot see how Europe favours Israel over other countries I cannot help you. I think you completely fail to grasp just how incredibly pro Israel European politics and media are. The fact we're apparently portrayed as antisemitic in Israel is downright criminal.

If any other country did what Israel has done for decades now, it would have rained condemnations. Just look at Russia in Ukraine as your example. We exclude Russia from sporting events, we suspend trade agreements, we send weapons to Ukraine. None of that with Israel. No, our politicians refuse to speak out.

And even with all of that, you want to play the victim and say we're not doing enough. Not enough of what exactly? Assist you in genocide?

As for not incentivizing the Palestinians, I actually do agree with you there. I think there are better ways to do that than we are currently doing. My point was just that we haven't done Israel any favours by giving it special treatment. Imo Israel would greatly benefit from a lasting solution, even if it may have to swallow some of its pride initially.

 

[Tomice]

You need to stop it with the persecution complex.

If you cannot see how Europe favours Israel over other countries I cannot help you. I think you completely fail to grasp just how incredibly pro Israel European politics and media are. The fact we're apparently portrayed as antisemitic in Israel is downright criminal.

If any other country did what Israel has done for decades now, it would have rained condemnations. Just look at Russia in Ukraine as your example. We exclude Russia from sporting events, we suspend trade agreements, we send weapons to Ukraine. None of that with Israel. No, our politicians refuse to speak out.

And even with all of that, you want to play the victim and say we're not doing enough. Not enough of what exactly? Assist you in genocide?

As for not incentivizing the Palestinians, I actually do agree with you there. I think there are better ways to do that than we are currently doing. My point was just that we haven't done Israel any favours by giving it special treatment. Imo Israel would greatly benefit from a lasting solution, even if it may have to swallow some of its pride initially.

Europe favor us over who? this is not a zero sum game. Some European countries favor us, some don't. it all seems like normal geopolitics to me. You are constantly trying to picture it as some nefarious, unholy, Un-legitime affair the goes against the best interest of those countries. The simple fact is that it doesn't, otherwise it wouldn't be happening, that is just how the world works.

The Russia example is exactly that. Your governments are not doing it for the poor Ukrainians out of some benevolent idea. They do it cause it serves their geopolitical interests. If the Palestinian cause did, and we wouldn't have sufficient leverage they would have done the same to us as they did Russia.

I also don't know why you think you are constantly portrayed as anti-sematic. It's completely false. Politician use is as pressure tool to achieve a goal and drum up support, personally I'm totally against it unless in a very clear cut case, which most of the times it isn't. And this is something that is also being criticized here, I think you don't realize how diverse the Israeli media landscape is. But anyway, I think you are way over-stating this.

And I don't know what you mean by the bolded part. I really can't understand what you are referring to.

We can agree on the last part at least.

 

[Seven]

Europe favor us over who? this is not a zero sum game. Some European countries favor us, some don't. it all seems like normal geopolitics to me. You are constantly trying to picture it as some nefarious, unholy, Un-legitime affair the goes against the best interest of those countries. The simple fact is that it doesn't, otherwise it wouldn't be happening, that is just how the world works.

The Russia example is exactly that. Your governments are not doing it for the poor Ukrainians out of some benevolent idea. They do it cause it serves their geopolitical interests. If the Palestinian cause did, and we wouldn't have sufficient leverage they would have done the same to us as they did Russia.

I also don't know why you think you are constantly portrayed as anti-sematic. It's completely false. Politician use is as pressure tool to achieve a goal and drum up support, personally I'm totally against it unless in a very clear cut case, which most of the times it isn't. And this is something that is also being criticized here, I think you don't realize how diverse the Israeli media landscape is. But anyway, I think you are way over-stating this.

And I don't know what you mean by the bolded part. I really can't understand what you are referring to.

We can agree on the last part at least.

I never said it went against the best interests of those countries. I am sure there is some economic motive behind it all.

But when I see European leaders bend over backwards to avoid having to call Israel out and Netanyahu calls them all antisemitic regardless, it is impossible to stomache.



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[Tomice]

I never said it went against the best interests of those countries. I am sure there is some economic motive behind it all.

But when I see European leaders bend over backwards to avoid having to call Israel out and Netanyahu calls them all antisemitic regardless, it is impossible to stomache.



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But to me you imply that when you constantly say that we are begging and giving nothing in return as you said, we give plenty in return imo. And I think it's much bigger then just economic motives.

More to the point, Bibi in general is very hard to stomach. A scum of a human being. The poster child of a populist politician, but he has a base. rapidly diminishing one thankfully.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

I've seen pretty harsh criticism of Israel across all media, I think we all suffer from conformation bias. It is not one-sided at all, we just view it from completely different perspectives. Also let's be honest the Jewish troup of jews control the media also play subconsciously a part here.

In the USA of course AIPAC is well known and a very powerful lobby group. But they represent, allegedly at least, an American voter base.

on the other hand you have Authoritarian regimes, mostly middle eastern and Qatar specifically funneling 10's of billions of dollars to US universities and campuses in disclosed and undisclosed funding.

https://www.universityworldnews.com/post.php?story=20231208230952463#:~:text=American universities and colleges have,date of US$47 billion.

Another Reasearch found that institutions that received undisclosed donations from foreign donors had 300% rise in anti-sematic incidents. This funding of course effect academic studies, journalists who graduated, and the campus protests we are seeing now all over the US.

For the money that they throw around, their influence is clearly quite larger than any demographic that they could claim to represent. As for university funding, you only need to see how they've handled protests to know who has actual influence there though. I remember while I was attending college, the SJP group was never given funding and pretty much not allowed to do anything in general. Meanwhile, a faculty member was allowed to invite Pamela Geller to speak. I've witnessed the disparity first hand, and it's clear which way the power goes.

This is unfortunately a country-wide thing though, I wouldn't put it as a campus issue.

Al-Jazeera, who is clearly an anti-Israeli media and pro-Hamas, has a huge global reach that far outstrips the legacy US media networks. AP also has a clear pro-Palestinian bias. Those two are the largest news sources from gaza.

The thing is, when we look at bias we are looking from a biased view already. Lets take an headline or coverage that claims or alludes that Israel purposefully target civilians, and there are many, You can read it and take it as a fact that confirms what you already think or not even fully register it as for you its not out of the realm of possibility, when an Israeli reads it will scream and jump out of the page, because everyone here served and everyone they know served and for them it's unconceivable to even insinuate that. The examples are endless but bias is not objective.

My favorite example is the New York Times, being somehow both clearly pro-Israel while also being pro-Palestinian.

It is surely not "everyone" that thinks this inconceivable, as there is definite evidence that such incidents are occurring. This is equivalent to me claiming there are no incidents of antisemitism actually happening just because I and anyone I know would never commit any. You can't say the government is beholden to a settler party, then also say no one could possibly wish to purposefully harm Palestinians. You, understandably of course, think very highly of your countrymen in terms of a desire for peaceful coexistence. There's without a doubt in my mind a countless number of Rabin assassinators out there right now.

Someone always controls the narrative, the fact Israel "lost" it's stronghold on the narrative due to social media doesn't not mean the narrative on social media is not controlled by someone else. Social media is just as biased and untrustworthy as the legacy media if not more.

You're right, and there's no reason to believe that any of the owners of major platforms are anything other than pro-Israel based on their actions and how their algorithms seem to work.

Our version of them is even worse then yours, trust me.

I can't even imagine.

i'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this narrative of infantilizing the Palestinians. It rids them of any responsibility and place all of it on Israel. They could have had independence a long time ago and they are master of their own destiny, they just choose poorly every time. Also the king David hotel and jewish terror is a false equivalency.
I also imagine how obnoxious American jews can be

I don't see it as infantilizing them to the extent that you're implying. Remember that Israel is the one with all the power here, by default that gives them more responsibility. How if they cannot even defend their own borders from settlers, for example? They don't even control their own water supply. Israelis/Jews have chosen poorly as well in the past, and arguably still do as we can see. Doesn't mean they don't deserve their own safe homeland too. Obviously it can't be a 1:1 comparison, but why would it be a false equivalency? If anything, Jews didn't have it nearly as bad under the British that the Palestinians do in the West Bank or Gaza.

Israel do have people from all over the world but the country is a middle eastern and not a western country. Its just as if an Asian comes to America - It doesnt make America an asian country...

I tried but you peasant dont want to be enlightened... and dont make it a general thing - You might know about war and other around your country but you certainly dont know anything about mine...
and its not about western and eastern - Its about knowledge about the specific thing we are talking about which is Israel and the Palestinians.
Some of you made it about Western Eastern and there was also a ridiculous one who came with suggestions of the Eurovision like it has something to do with the current situation between the two sides.

Yeah I know you dont like to hear it but in this specific subject - You are definitely ignorant.
You could be brilliant in other things (I dont know) but obviously not on this one.

There really isn't much complexity here, this isn't rocket science.

But like I said
> Criticism of Israel's actions
"NO U"
What a convenient and easy way to deflect.

 

[Seven]

But to me you imply that when you constantly say that we are begging and giving nothing in return as you said, we give plenty in return imo. And I think it's much bigger then just economic motives.

More to the point, Bibi in general is very hard to stomach. A scum of a human being. The poster child of a populist politician, but he has a base. rapidly diminishing one thankfully.

We can go over the intricacies of what Israel gives back, but I'm sure one thing is simply intelligence. Israel and their intelligence agencies seem to be a go to source for both European countries and the US. But in any case there is obviously a strong incentive for politicians and media in the West to be rather pro Israel.

I firmly believe people like Netanyahu are the root of the problem. Yes, I know this is a conflict that essentially goes back decades and I know there is a lot of history and bad blood. But there is no way the average Israeli person and the average Palestine person do not want peace. No way. In the back of their minds everyone just wants a safe place for their children to grow up. And people like Netanyahu prey on that fear to take power, then abuse that power saying violence is the only way to guarantee safety. It's the opposite.