Again, you are sidestepping, what political and economic "help"? glancing over it like it's some undeniable fact. I don't see it.
All we are left with is again, entrainment.
And to the bald part, we still are.
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Israeli-Palestinian conflict (91 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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Again, you are sidestepping, what political and economic "help"? glancing over it like it's some undeniable fact. I don't see it.
All we are left with is again, entrainment.
And to the bald part, we still are.
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Part of Kazakhstan is actually in Europe though. You know full well in which federation your national team should play games. Not to mention that, really, Israeli club teams have no place in the UEFA Champions League.
It's just entertainment anyway, right?
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The courts will deem it genocide.
I'm not so ignorant as to assume all Israelis are Polish Jews, I see and interact with Israelis and Palestinians on an almost daily basis. The whole thing about Israel is they're supposed to be a "western style" democracy with "western values" in the Middle East, that IS culture. I certainly don't think it's some sort of perverse Hamas narrative to consider you as such.
And Ashkenazis are western, let's be real. They were born and raised in western nations for generations. You don't need to tell me about perception, I don't speak Italian because we were "the other" at one point too. Doesn't make me any less of a "westerner." Meanwhile I'll watch a white as snow "mountain Jew" (I forget specifically which) that I know, whose family lived in the USSR before immigrating here when she was like FOUR, pontificate on about how all the rest of us are "brainwashed" and can't possibly understand such a "complex" conflict. No no honey, you're one of us too.
I don't get it though, do you want to be seen as "western" or not?
Glad you're alright, btw.
Please enlighten us western peasants on the complexities of things like "war," "sovereignty," and "nationality," concepts we have never encountered before oh wise Orgut.
And Ashkenazis are western, let's be real. They were born and raised in western nations for generations. You don't need to tell me about perception, I don't speak Italian because we were "the other" at one point too. Doesn't make me any less of a "westerner." Meanwhile I'll watch a white as snow "mountain Jew" (I forget specifically which) that I know, whose family lived in the USSR before immigrating here when she was like FOUR, pontificate on about how all the rest of us are "brainwashed" and can't possibly understand such a "complex" conflict. No no honey, you're one of us too.
I don't get it though, do you want to be seen as "western" or not?
Glad you're alright, btw.
Please enlighten us western peasants on the complexities of things like "war," "sovereignty," and "nationality," concepts we have never encountered before oh wise Orgut.
I'm not saying you are ignorant at all, I think it will be very easy for an outsider to underestimate how much the non-western/Arab mentality is part of our culture, regardless of our pretenses, our looks, or how we market ourselves to the outside.
Vast majority of Israelis today are either mixed or of middle eastern/north African descent. This cultural/mentality heritage dos does not dissipate in 1 or 2 generations. This influence on Israeli culture and politics has been very significant since the mid-70's.
They all came from non-western, authoritarian, muslim/arab countries. As they grow in influence so did the Israeli politics shifted right. I can go on and on how this effect Israeli internal politics and also the Israeli attitude to the Palestinians, the 2 state solution, minorities etc.
I completely get the Italian/Jewish compression, it's an apt one to a degree. both weren't considered white in the US, but it's not mere perception, the Jewish experience also involve centuries of being prosecuted, ostracized and murdered by Europeans for not being "white" or whatever nationality they happened to be. 100,000 jews served in the German army in ww1, 2 decades later they were called parasites and rounded up in death camps.
The same happened to jews in the Muslim world, albeit to a lesser extant.
It is so ingrained into our collective psyche that it influence everything we do as a people. We can be spiteful, overzealous, untrusting and violent. But we think we need to be in order to survive, rightly or wrongly, or both.
Personally, and I think this holds true to many of us, I don't think of us as westerns and I don't care if people see us as such. We are a bit of everything, it's not a binary question. I very much prefer to be viewed as a western in the private liberties, democracy and personal freedoms aspect of it but no country can be truly "western", in it's modern post-WW2 sense, in the middle east and last long.
And thanks, appreciated.
Vast majority of Israelis today are either mixed or of middle eastern/north African descent. This cultural/mentality heritage dos does not dissipate in 1 or 2 generations. This influence on Israeli culture and politics has been very significant since the mid-70's.
They all came from non-western, authoritarian, muslim/arab countries. As they grow in influence so did the Israeli politics shifted right. I can go on and on how this effect Israeli internal politics and also the Israeli attitude to the Palestinians, the 2 state solution, minorities etc.
I completely get the Italian/Jewish compression, it's an apt one to a degree. both weren't considered white in the US, but it's not mere perception, the Jewish experience also involve centuries of being prosecuted, ostracized and murdered by Europeans for not being "white" or whatever nationality they happened to be. 100,000 jews served in the German army in ww1, 2 decades later they were called parasites and rounded up in death camps.
The same happened to jews in the Muslim world, albeit to a lesser extant.
It is so ingrained into our collective psyche that it influence everything we do as a people. We can be spiteful, overzealous, untrusting and violent. But we think we need to be in order to survive, rightly or wrongly, or both.
Personally, and I think this holds true to many of us, I don't think of us as westerns and I don't care if people see us as such. We are a bit of everything, it's not a binary question. I very much prefer to be viewed as a western in the private liberties, democracy and personal freedoms aspect of it but no country can be truly "western", in it's modern post-WW2 sense, in the middle east and last long.
And thanks, appreciated.
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I was just speaking generally there, "ignorance" is probably the second largest claim made by "Israelis" here, the first being something obscenely stupid on the level of Palestinians control the media and governmental organizations, or something along those lines.
The CIA has Sephardics at 55-60% by the late 1970, hardly some sort of supermajority though. Even the Prime Minister is Ashkenazi too. I can tell you here, Ashkenazi represent the supreme majority for sure and dominate the discourse, so that's what I see almost 99% of the time.
I completely understand that, however it cannot be used as an excuse to justify the actions of Israeli governments and Jewish extremist groups since the foundation of Israel.
But then if this is the case, you're "othering" yourself as well, so would you not expect the west to do so at that point? For the record, in my view the way Israel is marketed here by politicians (and perhaps by extension the Ashkenazi population) essentially boils down to a European country, but in the Middle East.
All of my great Grandparents emigrated here around the WWI period. The most I know about is my Grandmother's father, he lived in Torre Del Greco and worked on a ship. While the ship was somewhere in/around Canada, he jumped ship and swam to shore, then illegally entered the United States and came to New York I believe in 1911 at the age of 18. I'm sure others entered illegally as well though. Don't know how it was in the Netherlands, but this was the attitude of the era towards Italians:
The CIA has Sephardics at 55-60% by the late 1970, hardly some sort of supermajority though. Even the Prime Minister is Ashkenazi too. I can tell you here, Ashkenazi represent the supreme majority for sure and dominate the discourse, so that's what I see almost 99% of the time.
I completely understand that, however it cannot be used as an excuse to justify the actions of Israeli governments and Jewish extremist groups since the foundation of Israel.
But then if this is the case, you're "othering" yourself as well, so would you not expect the west to do so at that point? For the record, in my view the way Israel is marketed here by politicians (and perhaps by extension the Ashkenazi population) essentially boils down to a European country, but in the Middle East.
All of my great Grandparents emigrated here around the WWI period. The most I know about is my Grandmother's father, he lived in Torre Del Greco and worked on a ship. While the ship was somewhere in/around Canada, he jumped ship and swam to shore, then illegally entered the United States and came to New York I believe in 1911 at the age of 18. I'm sure others entered illegally as well though. Don't know how it was in the Netherlands, but this was the attitude of the era towards Italians:
It's a mentality thing that ties into the point I made. I think it's a natural reaction to the dissonance between how we perceive this conflict to how many outsiders perceive it, irrespective of what's true. Also Israeli media mostly highlights when the western media is perceived as biased or bluntly anti-Israeli so the impression most have is that the information the outside world gets is skewed. And to a degree it's true Imo but ignorance is not the word I would have used.
I would also not belittle the influence the Anti-Israeli lobby has on international bodies, academia and media. It exists, I don't accept the axiom that all those entities are pro-Israeli. It's bigger than just the Palestinians, it's all part of a much broader conflict that takes many forms, not just militarily.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP06T00412R000200840001-6.pdf%20%20 That's in the 70's already(!). Birth rate is also naturally higher with Sephardic (arab culture again). The prime minister ethnicity is irrelevant, his base is 90% or more Sephardic and they are who he caters to along with the orthodox (who care only for money) and the settler movement (who care only for settlements), they hold him by the balls. Exactly because of the bald part people have skewed perception of what Israelis are.
It's not an excuse, it's an underlying trauma we have to live with, the Palestinians as well. But with that said it doesn't exist in a vacuum, it is not an innate trait of Israelis. I will always maintain we want peace and we would have had one a long time ago if we had willing partners. Of course, a lot here would disagree but to me it's an undeniable truth. It's what lets me sleep soundly at night, knowing we might do bad thing but we are not bad people.
Tragic, isn't it?
As I said it's a marketing ploy. nothing more. of course we are much, much closer to a western society in many aspects than our neighbors but we will always be a bastard state.
I would also not belittle the influence the Anti-Israeli lobby has on international bodies, academia and media. It exists, I don't accept the axiom that all those entities are pro-Israeli. It's bigger than just the Palestinians, it's all part of a much broader conflict that takes many forms, not just militarily.
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP06T00412R000200840001-6.pdf%20%20 That's in the 70's already(!). Birth rate is also naturally higher with Sephardic (arab culture again). The prime minister ethnicity is irrelevant, his base is 90% or more Sephardic and they are who he caters to along with the orthodox (who care only for money) and the settler movement (who care only for settlements), they hold him by the balls. Exactly because of the bald part people have skewed perception of what Israelis are.
It's not an excuse, it's an underlying trauma we have to live with, the Palestinians as well. But with that said it doesn't exist in a vacuum, it is not an innate trait of Israelis. I will always maintain we want peace and we would have had one a long time ago if we had willing partners. Of course, a lot here would disagree but to me it's an undeniable truth. It's what lets me sleep soundly at night, knowing we might do bad thing but we are not bad people.
Tragic, isn't it?
As I said it's a marketing ploy. nothing more. of course we are much, much closer to a western society in many aspects than our neighbors but we will always be a bastard state.
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Sephardi is not arab culture. I doubt Spaniards or Portuguese want to be associated with arabs and I'd say the same thing about sephardi jews. Maybe there has been a lot of interracial marriage over the years and cultures have syncretize but I think mizrahi (a wrong label I might add) is different from sephardi. For exampe, Iraqi jews (from information past on to me from my father and grandma) had a lot of arab influence and I've seen videos online of iraqi jews and how proud they are of that culture but I digress.
The term Sephardi jew means of Sephardic descent not Spanish or Portuguese jews. almost all Northern African Jews, Balkan and Turkish jews are decedents of Jews who fled/were kicked out of Spain/Portugal after the inquisition in the 1400's, in Spain and Portugal there were almost no jews left. beside the Balkan jews naturally they all adopted the Arab/Muslim culture of the region for hundreds of years.
In Israel the terms Sephardi and Mizrahi are almost interchangeable. Almost all Sephardi jews (expect the Balkan jews) are also Mizrahi but not all Mizrahi are Sephardic if that makes sense. Mizrahi is a broad term (used incorrectly as you correctly said) for all Arab/Muslim background jews.
To you last point, in general yeah most Israeli Jews and especially those of Sephardi/Mizrahi descent are very proud of their heritage and culture.
In Israel the terms Sephardi and Mizrahi are almost interchangeable. Almost all Sephardi jews (expect the Balkan jews) are also Mizrahi but not all Mizrahi are Sephardic if that makes sense. Mizrahi is a broad term (used incorrectly as you correctly said) for all Arab/Muslim background jews.
To you last point, in general yeah most Israeli Jews and especially those of Sephardi/Mizrahi descent are very proud of their heritage and culture.
You don't think that this concept would work more strongly in your direction though? Where seemingly every criticism is anti-semitism and those that should support Israel are considered "self-hating Jews?"
But when you consider our Presidential candidates speak in front of AIPAC... Israel had a stranglehold on the narrative for decades, and it's one that imo they lost primarily because of social media. I'm not saying it's something that doesn't exist, but this is what I mean though. Any sort of criticism, no matter how valid, enters you into this apparent cartel with the only goal of eliminating Jews because they hate them all just because??? It's too simple, too easy of an explanation that in my experience is thrown out mostly because an individual doesn't want to sit down and take a hard look in the mirror regarding their views. The same vein as some of the rhetoric around the United States prior to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. It's not as if Israel is doing anything differently here, they've been killing kids since forever. The flow of information just can't be controlled anymore like it used to be.
You could keep them, by the way. In fact, feel free to come and get some more
.
Of course, and it goes both ways on the whole. This is what a people do when they do not have independence and control over their own destiny. Across continents, cultures, and timelines it's always the same. That's what bothers me the most, there really is no more complexity to this situation than that. American Jews will talk a bunch of shit, but I'm assuming that they would think the King David Hotel and the vegetable markets of Jerusalem used to just bomb themselves back in the day.
The way it looks now based on this war, it's only going to get worse as well.
But when you consider our Presidential candidates speak in front of AIPAC... Israel had a stranglehold on the narrative for decades, and it's one that imo they lost primarily because of social media. I'm not saying it's something that doesn't exist, but this is what I mean though. Any sort of criticism, no matter how valid, enters you into this apparent cartel with the only goal of eliminating Jews because they hate them all just because??? It's too simple, too easy of an explanation that in my experience is thrown out mostly because an individual doesn't want to sit down and take a hard look in the mirror regarding their views. The same vein as some of the rhetoric around the United States prior to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. It's not as if Israel is doing anything differently here, they've been killing kids since forever. The flow of information just can't be controlled anymore like it used to be.
You could keep them, by the way. In fact, feel free to come and get some more
.Of course, and it goes both ways on the whole. This is what a people do when they do not have independence and control over their own destiny. Across continents, cultures, and timelines it's always the same. That's what bothers me the most, there really is no more complexity to this situation than that. American Jews will talk a bunch of shit, but I'm assuming that they would think the King David Hotel and the vegetable markets of Jerusalem used to just bomb themselves back in the day.
The way it looks now based on this war, it's only going to get worse as well.
You'd expect these characteristics to make Israel a more tolerant country.
As for the fear of persecution I don't think anyone would blame Jews or Israel in that regard. But this is precisely one of the reasons why the international community has let things go on for as long as they did. Imagine Belgium just colonizing part of the Netherlands by building homes there and have police patrol the streets. We'd get a slap on the wrist within days. But with Israel we are understanding and this unfortunately has allowed the situation to fester. In Dutch we have an expression for this that would literally translate to "gentle healers create stinking wounds".
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I think people overestimate the bias of international organisations like the UN, the ICC or the ICJ. There is lobbying going on, but precisely because of the scale these institutions are fairly neutral. In so far that there is bias though, I'd say that is heavily skewed towards Northern America and Western Europe. Those regions are, for a myriad of reasons, pro Israel. Whatever Netanyahu and his ilk claim about these organisations being anti-Israel is plain absurd.
Outside of the complex politics and heinous crimes committed by both Israel and Hamas, their puppet masters, and all else involved, there can be no denying that this is genocide. The disproportionate death of innocents is incredible and the punishment to survivors is even worse. Children having surgery without anaesthetic, babies dying in incubators because their not allowed oxygen since 'Hamas are hiding in hospitals', disease, famine, no shelter, no aid, etc. are all intended to punish. People don't appreciate the reality of this. My doctor friends have just come back from Gaza, they tell me that when they go to replace old bandages they find maggots eating the flesh of these people. Even a serial killer will get a more humane death. Listen to the testimonials from the international doctors and aid workers if you still think this is no genocide.
I've seen pretty harsh criticism of Israel across all media, I think we all suffer from conformation bias. It is not one-sided at all, we just view it from completely different perspectives. Also let's be honest the Jewish troup of jews control the media also play subconsciously a part here.
In the USA of course AIPAC is well known and a very powerful lobby group. But they represent, allegedly at least, an American voter base.
on the other hand you have Authoritarian regimes, mostly middle eastern and Qatar specifically funneling 10's of billions of dollars to US universities and campuses in disclosed and undisclosed funding.
https://www.universityworldnews.com...ities and colleges have,date of US$47 billion.
Another Reasearch found that institutions that received undisclosed donations from foreign donors had 300% rise in anti-sematic incidents. This funding of course effect academic studies, journalists who graduated, and the campus protests we are seeing now all over the US.
Al-Jazeera, who is clearly an anti-Israeli media and pro-Hamas, has a huge global reach that far outstrips the legacy US media networks. AP also has a clear pro-Palestinian bias. Those two are the largest news sources from gaza.
The thing is, when we look at bias we are looking from a biased view already. Lets take an headline or coverage that claims or alludes that Israel purposefully target civilians, and there are many, You can read it and take it as a fact that confirms what you already think or not even fully register it as for you its not out of the realm of possibility, when an Israeli reads it will scream and jump out of the page, because everyone here served and everyone they know served and for them it's unconceivable to even insinuate that. The examples are endless but bias is not objective.
Someone always controls the narrative, the fact Israel "lost" it's stronghold on the narrative due to social media doesn't not mean the narrative on social media is not controlled by someone else. Social media is just as biased and untrustworthy as the legacy media if not more.
Our version of them is even worse then yours, trust me.
i'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this narrative of infantilizing the Palestinians. It rids them of any responsibility and place all of it on Israel. They could have had independence a long time ago and they are master of their own destiny, they just choose poorly every time. Also the king David hotel and jewish terror is a false equivalency.
I also imagine how obnoxious American jews can be
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It further shows how you understand nothing about middle eastern/Arab culture if you think it makes you more tolerant. They are killing each other in number that Israel will not reach in a millennia.
This situation as you call it is allowed to fester in a huge part because the Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution or independence on 67' borders, they want all of it, it's just you who doesn't listen to them. Every time they rejected a peace offer, started an intifada, blew up a bus or stabbed a teen the political right is Israel got a bit bigger. And as an extension the settlements.
The same thing happens today with the rise of the right in Europe due to immigration, same shit exactly, nothing special here.
I I think you complete ignorant of how those Institutes operate, especially the UN. In part probably because of European hubris.
The west doesn't control them for decades, each country has an equal vote (beside veto rights), the largest block is the Muslim block with 50 something members and with it's proxies in Africa + China and Russia, the west is a small minority.
The UN is so overwhelmingly anti-Israeli that it became comical. 40% of all UN condemnation globally are against Israel. 140 condemnation by the general assembly versus 67 for the rest of the world. Israel the only country in the world with a permanent agenda item at UNHRC. In 2023 alone 15 UNGA resulostion against Israel and 7 against rest of the world. No condemnation of Qatar, Saudi Arabia, China, not one (!)
I will not even mention UNRAW, a UN founded organization that's purpose is to prolong the conflict and keep palastinians as refugees indefinitely against every acceptable definition of a refugees statues, a privilege unique to Palestinians.
There is a condemnation of Israel that states that Israel is responsible for the domestic violence against women in the west bank, I'm not joking. And I can go on and on
In the USA of course AIPAC is well known and a very powerful lobby group. But they represent, allegedly at least, an American voter base.
on the other hand you have Authoritarian regimes, mostly middle eastern and Qatar specifically funneling 10's of billions of dollars to US universities and campuses in disclosed and undisclosed funding.
https://www.universityworldnews.com...ities and colleges have,date of US$47 billion.
Another Reasearch found that institutions that received undisclosed donations from foreign donors had 300% rise in anti-sematic incidents. This funding of course effect academic studies, journalists who graduated, and the campus protests we are seeing now all over the US.
Al-Jazeera, who is clearly an anti-Israeli media and pro-Hamas, has a huge global reach that far outstrips the legacy US media networks. AP also has a clear pro-Palestinian bias. Those two are the largest news sources from gaza.
The thing is, when we look at bias we are looking from a biased view already. Lets take an headline or coverage that claims or alludes that Israel purposefully target civilians, and there are many, You can read it and take it as a fact that confirms what you already think or not even fully register it as for you its not out of the realm of possibility, when an Israeli reads it will scream and jump out of the page, because everyone here served and everyone they know served and for them it's unconceivable to even insinuate that. The examples are endless but bias is not objective.
Someone always controls the narrative, the fact Israel "lost" it's stronghold on the narrative due to social media doesn't not mean the narrative on social media is not controlled by someone else. Social media is just as biased and untrustworthy as the legacy media if not more.
You could keep them, by the way. In fact, feel free to come and get some more .
.
i'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this narrative of infantilizing the Palestinians. It rids them of any responsibility and place all of it on Israel. They could have had independence a long time ago and they are master of their own destiny, they just choose poorly every time. Also the king David hotel and jewish terror is a false equivalency.
I also imagine how obnoxious American jews can be
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It further shows how you understand nothing about middle eastern/Arab culture if you think it makes you more tolerant. They are killing each other in number that Israel will not reach in a millennia.
This situation as you call it is allowed to fester in a huge part because the Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution or independence on 67' borders, they want all of it, it's just you who doesn't listen to them. Every time they rejected a peace offer, started an intifada, blew up a bus or stabbed a teen the political right is Israel got a bit bigger. And as an extension the settlements.
The same thing happens today with the rise of the right in Europe due to immigration, same shit exactly, nothing special here.
I I think you complete ignorant of how those Institutes operate, especially the UN. In part probably because of European hubris.
The west doesn't control them for decades, each country has an equal vote (beside veto rights), the largest block is the Muslim block with 50 something members and with it's proxies in Africa + China and Russia, the west is a small minority.
The UN is so overwhelmingly anti-Israeli that it became comical. 40% of all UN condemnation globally are against Israel. 140 condemnation by the general assembly versus 67 for the rest of the world. Israel the only country in the world with a permanent agenda item at UNHRC. In 2023 alone 15 UNGA resulostion against Israel and 7 against rest of the world. No condemnation of Qatar, Saudi Arabia, China, not one (!)
I will not even mention UNRAW, a UN founded organization that's purpose is to prolong the conflict and keep palastinians as refugees indefinitely against every acceptable definition of a refugees statues, a privilege unique to Palestinians.
There is a condemnation of Israel that states that Israel is responsible for the domestic violence against women in the west bank, I'm not joking. And I can go on and on
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Israel do have people from all over the world but the country is a middle eastern and not a western country. Its just as if an Asian comes to America - It doesnt make America an asian country...
Please enlighten us western peasants on the complexities of things like "war," "sovereignty," and "nationality," concepts we have never encountered before oh wise Orgut
I tried but you peasant dont want to be enlightened... and dont make it a general thing - You might know about war and other around your country but you certainly dont know anything about mine...
and its not about western and eastern - Its about knowledge about the specific thing we are talking about which is Israel and the Palestinians.
Some of you made it about Western Eastern and there was also a ridiculous one who came with suggestions of the Eurovision like it has something to do with the current situation between the two sides.
Yeah I know you dont like to hear it but in this specific subject - You are definitely ignorant.
You could be brilliant in other things (I dont know) but obviously not on this one.
Please enlighten us western peasants on the complexities of things like "war," "sovereignty," and "nationality," concepts we have never encountered before oh wise Orgut
I tried but you peasant dont want to be enlightened... and dont make it a general thing - You might know about war and other around your country but you certainly dont know anything about mine...
and its not about western and eastern - Its about knowledge about the specific thing we are talking about which is Israel and the Palestinians.
Some of you made it about Western Eastern and there was also a ridiculous one who came with suggestions of the Eurovision like it has something to do with the current situation between the two sides.
Yeah I know you dont like to hear it but in this specific subject - You are definitely ignorant.
You could be brilliant in other things (I dont know) but obviously not on this one.