Israeli-Palestinian conflict (16 Viewers)

[JBF]

You make a good point Hoori but let me explain. When I said I supported Najad I explained it that I don't think a change in Iran is possible without the interference of the international community just like what happened in Iraq, your neighbor. Your country would be demolished, back to square one and even more refugees will flee to Europe, America and wherever they'll be offered a sanctuary. You may have your doubts but I really don't want to see that. I've many friends here in Jordan who are from Iranian descents baha'is who have been the most oppressed since the Islamic revolution and I always tell them the same. A change from the inside is highly unlikely, despite the fact that now I wouldn't mind a change in the authority in Iran if it would mean the Iranians are the ones who will do the trick thus ensuring to some extent at least that they do it for their own and country's sake, not for oil, power, international recognition....etc. Only then it will be a step forward IMO.

The same goes to our own dictators Hoori, I've always said the same. When you reach a point you know a change can only occur with an outsider's devastating interference you try your best to make the change from the inside, I know it's a long shot but at least you might save a lot of bloodshed, homes, land and years of mess.

As for your first point Hoori about Palestinians and any oppressed group for that matter (according to you), I disagree. Im not denying the fact that many Palestinians just like any other people have their share of cold blooded murders but Im rather stating a fact that many Palestinians have already grew the habit of living along non-Palestinians on their land and you can see that clearly between the 1 million Palestinian-origin residents inside what is now called Israel who live peacefully along Israeli's with no clashes worth mentioning except for rare cases that would happen in every society. And by this time, almost every Palestinian realizes the difference between a Jew, Atheist and a Zionist and with the latter lies our problem. And only the later should be prosecuted for his actions and beliefs just like Nazis were/are prosecuted till this day. As they're our modern day Nazis with numerous human-crimes that I think any of you readers can name at least three with not that much of reading on our long lasting fight for freedom.

Oh and I sympathize with every victim in the Iranian clashes and hope the dead RIP.

 

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[ReBeL]

After denied entry to West Bank, Chomsky likens Israel to 'Stalinist regime'

In a telephone conversation last night from Amman, Chomsky told Haaretz that he concluded from the questions of the Israeli official that the fact that he came to lecture at a Palestinian and not an Israeli university led to the decision to deny him entry.

"I find it hard to think of a similar case, in which entry to a person is denied because he is not lecturing in Tel Aviv. Perhaps only in Stalinist regimes," Chomsky told Haaretz.

Sabine Haddad, a spokesperson for the Interior Ministry, confirmed to Haaretz that the officials at the border were from the ministry.

"Because he entered the Palestinian Authority territory only, his entry is the responsibility of the Office of the Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories at the Defense Ministry. There was a misunderstanding on our side, and the matter was not brought to the attention of the COGAT."

Haddad told Haaretz that "the minute the COGAT says that they do not object, Chomsky's entry would have been permitted."

Chomsky, a Jewish professor of linguistics and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, had spent several months at Kibbutz Hazore'a during the 1950s and had considered a longer stay in Israel. He had been invited by the Department of Philosophy at Bir Zeit.

He planned to spend four days in the West Bank and give two lectures.

On Sunday, at about 1:30 P.M. he came to the Israeli side of the border with Jordan. After three hours of questioning, during which the border officer repeatedly called the Interior Ministry for instructions, Chomsky's passport was stamped with "Denied Entry."

With Chomsky, 81, were his daughter Aviva, and a couple of old friends of his and his late wife.

Entry was also denied to his daughter.

Their friends, one of whom is a Palestinian who grew up in Beirut, were allowed in, but they opted to return with Chomsky to Amman.

Chomsky told Haaretz that it was clear that his arrival had been known to the authorities, because the minute he entered the passport control room the official told him that he was honored to see him and that he had read his works.

The professor concluded that the officer was a student, and said he looked embarrassed at the task at hand, especially when he began reading from text the questions that had been dictated to him, and which were also told to him later by telephone.

Chomsky told Haaretz about the questions.

"The official asked me why I was lecturing only at Bir Zeit and not an Israeli university," Chomsky recalled. "I told him that I have lectured a great deal in Israel. The official read the following statement: 'Israel does not like what you say.'"

Chomsky replied: "Find one government in the world which does."

"The young man asked me whether I had ever been denied entry into other countries. I told him that once, to Czechoslovakia, after the Soviet invasion in 1968," he said, adding that he had gone to visit ousted Czechoslovak leader Alexander Dubcek, whose reforms the Soviets crushed.

In response to the official's question, Chomsky said that the subjects of his lectures were "America and the world," and "America at home."

The official asked him whether he would speak on Israel and Chomsky said that because he would talk of U.S. policy he would also comment on Israel and its policies.

He was then told by the official: "You have spoken with [Hassan] Nasrallah."

"True," Chomsky told him. "When I was in Lebanon [prior to the war in 2006] I spoke with people from the entire political spectrum there, as in Israel I also spoke with people on the right."

"At the time I read reports of my visit in the Israeli press, and the articles in the Israeli press had no connection with reality," Chomsky told the border official.

The official asked Chomsky why he did not have an Israeli passport.

"I replied I am an American citizen," Chomsky said.

Chomsky said that he asked the man at border control for an official written explanation for the reason his entry was denied and that "it would help the Interior Ministry because this way my version will not be the only one given to the media."

The official called the ministry and then told Chomsky that he would be able to find the official statement at the U.S. Embassy.

The last time Chomsky visited Israel and the West Bank was in 1997, when he lectured on both sides of the Green Line. He had also planned a visit to the Gaza strip, but because the Palestinian Authority insisted that he be escorted by Palestinian guards, he canceled that part of the visit.

To Haaretz, Chomsky said Sunday that preventing him entry is tantamount to boycotting Bir Zeit University. Chomsky is known to oppose a general boycott on Israel. "I was against a boycott of apartheid South Africa as well. If we are going to boycott, why not the United States, whose record is even worse? I'm in favor of boycotting American companies which collaborate with the occupation," he said. "But if we are to boycott Tel Aviv University, why not MIT?"

Chomsky told Haaretz that he supports a two-state solution, but not the solution proposed by Jerusalem, "pieces of land that will be called a state."

He said that Israel's behavior today reminds him of that of South Africa in the 1960s, when it realized that it was already considered a pariah, but thought that it would resolve the problem with better public relations.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...ky-likens-israel-to-stalinist-regime-1.290736

 

[ReBeL]

I mean killing the people who are protesting to get back what "they" call their land, their right. Wouldn't you do that?

The pics Rebel posted reminded me of those another guy posted during the uproars in Iran after the recent elections. People were protesting against the government because "they" believed they were right. There was no war in Iran unlike what we see in Palestine but police opened fire on the people who were "using their bodies as human armors" and killed almost 300 in less than one month. Hundreds of those people were arrested. 8 of them got executed and 10 more will be executed in the next weeks. And you said you would support the government in Iran which I think it was probably because Ahmadinejad has claimed to be aiming to wipe Israel off the world's map which means wiping Israel with all its people many of which are innocent kids who have nothing to do with what happens in Gaza.

You see, there is no difference. You are only the weaker party, not the better one. You are full of hatred and anger, the only thing you are lacking to be as brutal as those Israeli soldiers is power. I'm not specifically talking about you, that's me too and that's everyone else who has been oppressed for a while in time. Just when we think we are on the "good" side, we get the power and we become as wicked as the "bad" side.

Click:

+ , +, +, +, +

You may know that we had Samaritans living between us in Nablus city for hundreds of years without having any problem with them. There is no problem in having jews in the country. The problem is that it is impossible to cope with those who want to evacuate your house and capture it to live at.

That is where the problem is.

 

[king Ale]

You make a good point Hoori but let me explain. When I said I supported Najad I explained it that I don't think a change in Iran is possible without the interference of the international community just like what happened in Iraq, your neighbor.

That's utterly wrong Ahmad. We middle easterners who have never been living under democratic governments always see radical changes as the only hope to become free. People in Iran have been fighting for freedom far more than their Arab neighbors but we fail every time because we want to destroy everything so that we could rebuild it and this is impossible when a large number of people is still politically uneducated. A change in Iran is possible without the interference of the US if we start by making small changes at the smallest chance we are given to. It might take hundreds of years but smallest changes are always the stablest ones.

Your country would be demolished, back to square one and even more refugees will flee to Europe, America and wherever they'll be offered a sanctuary. You may have your doubts but I really don't want to see that. I've many friends here in Jordan who are from Iranian descents baha'is who have been the most oppressed since the Islamic revolution and I always tell them the same. A change from the inside is highly unlikely, despite the fact that now I wouldn't mind a change in the authority in Iran if it would mean the Iranians are the ones who will do the trick thus ensuring to some extent at least that they do it for their own and country's sake, not for oil, power, international recognition....etc. Only then it will be a step forward IMO.

A change from inside wasn't unlikely at all four years ago but people refused to vote in the elections because they thought there was no difference between the hardliners and the reformists as long as they are all a part of the Islamic Republic and that's where Iranian people threw a big step forward in gaining freedom away. Ahmadinejad took over by the least possible votes because the majority didn't even participate in the elections and then a four year time was enough for Ahmadinejad to raze every promising step taken by the former reformist government to the ground. When people realized that unlike what they thought, there was actually a very big difference between the hardliners and the reformists even if the reformists are still an Islamic political party associated to the Islamic Republic it was already too late, the government was strong enough not to count their votes. It's people to blame. If you take one step back, they will take 10 forward.

As for your first point Hoori about Palestinians and any oppressed group for that matter (according to you), I disagree. Im not denying the fact that many Palestinians just like any other people have their share of cold blooded murders but Im rather stating a fact that many Palestinians have already grew the habit of living along non-Palestinians on their land and you can see that clearly between the 1 million Palestinian-origin residents inside what is now called Israel who live peacefully along Israeli's with no clashes worth mentioning except for rare cases that would happen in every society. And by this time, almost every Palestinian realizes the difference between a Jew, Atheist and a Zionist and with the latter lies our problem. And only the later should be prosecuted for his actions and beliefs just like Nazis were/are prosecuted till this day. As they're our modern day Nazis with numerous human-crimes that I think any of you readers can name at least three with not that much of reading on our long lasting fight for freedom.

You may know that we had Samaritans living between us in Nablus city for hundreds of years without having any problem with them. There is no problem in having jews in the country. The problem is that it is impossible to cope with those who want to evacuate your house and capture it to live at.

That is where the problem is.

That wasn't my point. For years your people lived with Jews in peace but being oppressed for many years now has grown an unhealthy hatred in your people. I'm not talking about you two in specific, I'm talking about the majority. The moment you get the power, nothing is guaranteed about you not doing the same to the people who were once in power. You Abed, you said you couldn't help hating Egypt football national team because of what Mubarak is doing. An Egyptian player said he wouldn't be playing for Portsmouth because of its Israeli coach and player and Fred approved that. That's the hatred I'm talking about which is keen enough to even relate politics to let's say football. Never underestimate its power for it can turn to a dangerous force when it comes with "power".

That's always been the same. When Reza Shah of Iran commanded to beat women who were wearing hijab he started a force which grew bigger and bigger and started beating women who were not wearing hijab 40 years after when it came with power. A drastic change in the current regime in Iran will also lead to a force which will beat women who are wearing hijab once again.

 

[JBF]

That's utterly wrong Ahmad. We middle easterners who have never been living under democratic governments always see radical changes as the only hope to become free. People in Iran have been fighting for freedom far more than their Arab neighbors but we fail every time because we want to destroy everything so that we could rebuild it and this is impossible when a large number of people is still politically uneducated. A change in Iran is possible without the interference of the US if we start by making small changes at the smallest chance we are given to. It might take hundreds of years but smallest changes are always the stablest ones.

And that's what I said later on

Changes from the inside are the only possible solution but they'll take time, a lot of it. That's why when riots hit the streets in Iran I didn't have a doubt that Najad will stay in power.

A change from inside wasn't unlikely at all four years ago but people refused to vote in the elections because they thought there was no difference between the hardliners and the reformists as long as they are all a part of the Islamic Republic and that's where Iranian people threw a big step forward in gaining freedom away. Ahmadinejad took over by the least possible votes because the majority didn't even participate in the elections and then a four year time was enough for Ahmadinejad to raze every promising step taken by the former reformist government to the ground. When people realized that unlike what they thought, there was actually a very big difference between the hardliners and the reformists even if the reformists are still an Islamic political party associated to the Islamic Republic it was already too late, the government was strong enough not to count their votes. It's people to blame. If you take one step back, they will take 10 forward.

Indeed. You might not know this but the same thing happened in Algeria in the 90s where the Islamic reformers also took part in the democratic elections and won by a great margin, yet the army refused to acknowledge that and the country went on to be involved in a deadly cycle of violence that only ended a few years ago but still has an effect on democracy life there.

It's a depressing thing but it's a fact, change take a whole lot of time in the middle east to happen. We can just hope and take baby steps as you've said and I agree.

That wasn't my point. For years your people lived with Jews in peace but being oppressed for many years now has grown an unhealthy hatred in your people. I'm not talking about you two in specific, I'm talking about the majority. The moment you get the power, nothing is guaranteed about you not doing the same to the people who were once in power.

And I realized your point that's why I mentioned the Palestinians living inside what is now known as Israel. They're the ones who suffered the most and saw the killings in the 1948 deadly occupation in their own eyes and they see, read and listen to the news in which their brothers are being brutally murdered every single day for the past 62 years. And what did they do, they continued their path by living and objecting peacefully. They even try to make a change through the Israeli Parliament with their delegates there but those always end up kicked out of the country or in jail. Talk about democracy...

As for your second point about the opressed one having power necessarily means they'll take their revenge, kill, murder..etc. It's just assumptions Hoori, and obviously a false one at that since I can't see a way for Palestinians to get an advantage over their enemy which happens to be one of the most 8 military powerful nations in the world. It simply is impossible.

You Abed, you said you couldn't help hating Egypt football national team because of what Mubarak is doing. An Egyptian player said he wouldn't be playing for Portsmouth because of its Israeli coach and player and Fred approved that. That's the hatred I'm talking about which is keen enough to even relate politics to let's say football. Never underestimate its power for it can turn to a dangerous force when it comes with "power".

That's a different issue, supporting an Israeli coach and player is not acceptable. It's treason itself, to us that is. It's like asking us to recognize the ones who till this day are kicking us of our homes, killing our sons and daughters, occupying our land. And asking us to make peace with them and just accept the current reality. We don't accept that, and anyone in our shoes would have done the same.

 

[Fred]

I knew it wouldn't take long for Hoori to mention me as an example like she always does

If i was a player i would not accept to work with someone who believed in the systematic evacuating of my people. You consider that hateful? Well excuse me if i don't exactly love people who want to steal my brothers land and homes.

 

[The Curr]

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

A bit poor in my opinion.

 

[Mohad]

LowKey is a genius, he speaks/raps so passionately and with righteous rage.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

A bit poor in my opinion.

it was cool until they started talking about boycotting

 

[Bjerknes]

it was cool until they started talking about boycotting

What on earth is wrong with boycotting?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

What on earth is wrong with boycotting?

a business is out to make money, and that makes the whole concept beautiful, money doesnt know color creed or sex. How naive to call coca cola or mc donalds evil for trying to make money, because lets be frank that really is their only agenda

 

[Bjerknes]

a business is out to make money, and that makes the whole concept beautiful, money doesnt know color creed or sex. How naive to call coca cola or mc donalds evil for trying to make money, because lets be frank that really is their only agenda

Well of course.

But if you felt a business entity like Barcelona was aiding genocide in Uzbekistan, would you boycott the club?

If people don't like Coke's support of Israel, they have a right to speak out against them and not buy their products.

I'd suggest starting a movement to short Coke into oblivion through help of hedge funds, maybe even using their own naked shorts against the establishment.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

coke "supports" just as much arabs or any market that makes financial sense. On the other hand, i wish on barca all the ails of the world, may their players get scurvy and break down like autumn leaves.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Don't leave heroin out...

 

[Bjerknes]

coke "supports" just as much arabs or any market that makes financial sense. On the other hand, i wish on barca all the ails of the world, may their players get scurvy and break down like autumn leaves.

If you're against boycotting a company, have you ever shorted a stock? Because that would be taking it a step further.

I'm sure Goldman thought it made financial sense to create fraudulent derivatives worth nothing for them to short against folks holding the bag.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

goldman along with all the big banks are all thieves, no exception

 

[Bjerknes]

I hate their fucking guts.

 

[ReBeL]

a business is out to make money, and that makes the whole concept beautiful, money doesnt know color creed or sex. How naive to call coca cola or mc donalds evil for trying to make money, because lets be frank that really is their only agenda

What about Starbucks?

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=78731&d=4&m=8&y=2006

In this country, very few people go to Starbucks.

 

[JBF]

Fuck Starbucks.