Israeli-Palestinian conflict (14 Viewers)

[swag]

Greg, every struggle is different. It took people years and years to turn to non-violent struggle. Ghandi's form of non-violence didn't coincide with the beginning of Indian struggle against the British colonials. Similarly, the non-violent struggle of Martin Luther King didn't coincide with the beginning of the American American struggle. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict started just a little over 60 years ago, how can you expect them to start a non-violent struggle?

And with all due respect, none of us know how it feels to live in Gaza or the West Bank. We can sit here and argue how they should fight their oppression all we want but at the end of the day we don't have a clue about what they go through.

Fair enough. A well-thought-out post. But the point is the old definition of insanity is to repeat the same behaviors over and over again, expecting a different result. What we see is insanity.

And I have no ability to claim what horrors the Palestinians are going through. But I do wish them hope, dignity, and the ability to live propserous lives on their own land. I have just seen very little coming out of Palestine leading in that direction. And I think there is an active role they can play in their future, even as "slaves" to the Israelis today. The moment you throw your hands in the air, presume you are merely a turtle on its back, and look externally for your only chances of salvation is when you're in deep doo-doo.

 

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[Zé Tahir]

Fair enough. A well-thought-out post. But the point is the old definition of insanity is to repeat the same behaviors over and over again, expecting a different result. What we see is insanity.

And I have no ability to claim what horrors the Palestinians are going through. But I do wish them hope, dignity, and the ability to live propserous lives on their own land. I have just seen very little coming out of Palestine leading in that direction. And I think there is an active role they can play in their future, even as "slaves" to the Israelis today. The moment you throw your hands in the air, presume you are merely a turtle on its back, and look externally for your only chances of salvation is when you're in deep doo-doo.

Agreed


The biggest reason why I believe Palestinians are in the situation they are in now is because they were sleeping behind the wheel. And it's not just them, all the Arab regimes are sleeping behind the wheel.

 

[Bjerknes]

No, I get all that. But I'm not talking about a cease fire... that just prolongs what already is a bad situation. I'm talking about finding non-violent ways of forcing the issues of the injustices.

When India fought for its independent from England for decades, Gandhi would go into a hunger strike as soon as violence would break out. It's because he knew that just violence can help win a singular incident of a few people, in the end it loses the war and your ability to take the moral high ground.

Every rocket fired into Israel claims a body here or there, but at what cost? The retaliation costs are only part of the costs. The worst part is that you give the enemy ammunition in trying to justify their cause of aggression.

I know what you mean, Greg, but I find this an entirely different situation. Even if Hamas stops launching missiles into what is known as Israel, no evidence suggests the IDF will stop torturing the citizens of Gaza. They built those walls for a purpose.

The Nazis were not defeated by peaceful protests.

 

[ReBeL]

The biggest reason why I believe Palestinians are in the situation they are in now is because they were sleeping behind the wheel. And it's not just them, all the Arab regimes are sleeping behind the wheel.

What do you mean, Tahir, by sleeping behind the wheel?

 

[ReBeL]

I know what you mean, Greg, but I find this an entirely different situation. Even if Hamas stops launches missiles into what is known as Israel, no evidence suggests the IDF will stop torturing the citizens of Gaza. They built those walls for a purpose.

The Nazis were not defeated by peaceful protests.

Totally right.

Greg doesn't know what happened in 30/3/1976 inside Israel when Arabs there were protesting capturing their lands by demonstartions. And by the way, those who were killed at that day were carrying Israeli nationality.

 

[swag]

Tell that to Rachel Currie.

unfortunately, that's part of the cost of non-violence. People are injured. In fact, they must risk bodily harm for it to work. And yes, people even must die.

However, if people are to die for freedom, it's better to move a cause forward with that death than to leave it mired in its failed strategies. Better for Rachel Currie to die under a bulldozer than in getting bombed in retaliation for a rocket fired into Israel -- at least for advancing the cause.

Non-violence isn't a clean, pretty solution. It's brutal and very ugly. But how much worse can it be than what the Palestinians are suffering now?

 

[swag]

Totally right.

Greg doesn't know what happened in 30/3/1976 inside Israel when Arabs there were protesting capturing their lands by demonstartions. And by the way, those who were killed at that day were carrying Israeli nationality.

It doesn't work as a one-off strategy. It requires mass commitment. You can't claim to be non-violent, get attacked, and come back with missiles the next month. In my mind, Palestine has never given non-violence a legitimate try. It's a long-term commitment, though. But I can't see it being worse than the current course.

 

[ReBeL]

unfortunately, that's part of the cost of non-violence. People are injured. In fact, they must risk bodily harm for it to work. And yes, people even must die.

However, if people are to die for freedom, it's better to move a cause forward with that death than to leave it mired in its failed strategies. Better for Rachel Currie to die under a bulldozer than in getting bombed in retaliation for a rocket fired into Israel -- at least for advancing the cause.

Non-violence isn't a clean, pretty solution. It's brutal and very ugly. But how much worse can it be than what the Palestinians are suffering now?

It doesn't work as a one-off strategy. It requires mass commitment. You can't claim to be non-violent, get attacked, and come back with missiles the next month.

That would mean a mass suicide. Nobody will care if you will shot or not in a peaceful demonstration.

This thread is not an invitation to people to fight for Palestine.

It is rather a way to tell people that whatever Palestinians choose to use in the future is the result of the universal silence that takes place right now.

 

[Sadomin]

The Nazis were not defeated by peaceful protests.

The Nazis had few sympathisers amongst neutral individuals and nations alike. The problem now is that many sympathise with Israel on the recent events solely because of Hamas attacks, harmless as they might be physically. The Israelis are acting in self defence officially. Whatever true objectives they have, they keep them silent unlike the Nazis. For every Hamas missile, Israel gains favour.

I promise you that the world would not remain passive if Palestine made no violent resistance. Even the USA would not be able to support an Israeli offensive would such a scenario occur. I might be naive and idealistic, but like swag said, it can't really get any worse, can it?

 

[Zé Tahir]

What do you mean, Tahir, by sleeping behind the wheel?

Well look at them. They're sitting on the most sought after natural resource in the world but what do they have to show for it? All their 'wealth' is kept in foreign banks, they have foreign troops on their soil, they send their children to get educated in other countries. Remember when Baghdad used to be the center of the educated world?

I've been in the UAE and I was appalled at how they live there. It's like modern day slavery over there. The Arabs don't do zilch while the foreigners do all the work. They live in their big mansions and don't have to do anything but to collect checks. How can such a people succeed in life? What happens when their oil runs out?

All this doesn't even touch the surface of their problems.

 

[swag]

That would mean a mass suicide. Nobody will care if you will shot or not in a peaceful demonstration.

This thread is not an invitation to people to fight for Palestine.

It is rather a way to tell people that whatever Palestinians choose to use in the future is the result of the universal silence that takes place right now.

Understood. It's how I deal with the tragedy. Rather than be mired in information that I know is all bad, and doesn't really lead anywhere productive, I like to see the potential for action rather than inaction or repeat failed actions. So my tendency is to want to see change -- rather than sit idly by and witness the ship go down with everyone aboard.

 

[ReBeL]

I promise you that the world would not remain passive if Palestine made no violent resistance. Even the USA would not be able to support an Israeli offensive would such a scenario occur. I might be naive and idealistic, but like swag said, it can't really get any worse, can it?

GO back to history books and read what happened in the next periods in Palestine:

1948-1965
1967-1987

Nobody will come from Tanzania to say: "Hey, you are suffering. I'm here to help you to end the occupation".

It was put nicely by Ghassan Kanafani, the novelist who was killed by Israelis in 1972 in Beriut:

"If you want something, you have to go for it by your own arms, specifically your hands, specifically your fingers. Don't ever think anybody will help you".

Simply, nobody will care if people will be killed quietly in Palestine.

 

[ReBeL]

Well look at them. They're sitting on the most sought after natural resource in the world but what do they have to show for it? All their 'wealth' is kept in foreign banks, they have foreign troops on their soil, they send their children to get educated in other countries. Remember when Baghdad used to be the center of the educated world?

I've been in the UAE and I was appalled at how they live there. It's like modern day slavery over there. The Arabs don't do zilch while the foreigners do all the work. They live in their big mansions and don't have to do anything but to collect checks. How can such a people succeed in life? What happens when their oil runs out?

All this doesn't even touch the surface of their problems.

I agree with that. I was there and saw that by my own eyes.

 

[Sadomin]

GO back to history books and read what happened in the next periods in Palestine:

1948-1965
1967-1987

Nobody will come from Tanzania to say: "Hey, you are suffering. I'm here to help you to end the occupation".

It was put nicely by Ghassan Kanafani, the novelist who was killed by Israelis in 1972 in Beriut:

"If you want something, you have to go for it by your own arms, specifically your hands, specifically your fingers. Don't ever think anybody will help you".

Simply, nobody will care if people will be killed quietly in Palestine.

The political climate of the world has gone through major changes since then. Heck, the term "Globalization" started to be used frequently only in the nineties.

Like I said, it is probably naive, but do you believe that Hamas attacks do any good for Palestine in the long run? Do they serve any other purpose than revenge, and will it lead to anything other than continued "retaliation" from Israel eventually leading to the death of even more Palestinians?

 

[Bjerknes]

The Nazis had few sympathisers amongst neutral individuals and nations alike. The problem now is that many sympathise with Israel on the recent events solely because of Hamas attacks, harmless as they might be physically. The Israelis are acting in self defence officially. Whatever true objectives they have, they keep them silent unlike the Nazis. For every Hamas missile, Israel gains favour.

I promise you that the world would not remain passive if Palestine made no violent resistance. Even the USA would not be able to support an Israeli offensive would such a scenario occur. I might be naive and idealistic, but like swag said, it can't really get any worse, can it?

If people support what's going on now, how will they act against Israel if the Palestinians do absolutely nothing? Most of them are doing nothing and just accept their reality. So what you said about the support for Israel is true; they will have support no matter who they murder, which is enhanced by this "war on terror" that can be misconstrued so easily even US citizens can be charged for terror just for arguing with police. It's absurd.

As I've said, as it stands, this conflict will only end when one group is completely wiped out. Unfortunately, the Palestinians have the short end of the stick.

 

[Sadomin]

Like I asked Rebel, would a peaceful protest act as a catalyst or prevention for this annihilation of the Palestinians?

 

[Bjerknes]

Like I asked Rebel, would a peaceful protest act as a catalyst or prevention for this annihilation of the Palestinians?

None of the above. They have already tried it.

Both parties have to want peace, but obviously one party doesn't want peace, which is why they break cease fires, kill children, et cetera.

That's where some of you guys are wrong about this conflict.

 

[Sadomin]

I believe there are some powerful individuals on both sides with certain objectives, peace not one of them.

 

[ReBeL]

The political climate of the world has gone through major changes since then. Heck, the term "Globalization" started to be used frequently only in the nineties.

Like I said, it is probably naive, but do you believe that Hamas attacks do any good for Palestine in the long run? Do they serve any other purpose than revenge, and will it lead to anything other than continued "retaliation" from Israel eventually leading to the death of even more Palestinians?

You can't tell me Israelis were peaceful people before the first missile was launched from Gaza.

Look. I won't talk about all the Palestinian lands. I'll talk only about Gaza.

Gaza suffer a horrible siege now. Give the people there any way to lift the siege.

I'm talking here about a real siege, not a livable one. How many days can you live without electricity? without your natural food which is bread in Gaza? without kerosene in the winter for your kids? without clean water? without dignity? People there have been living in such conditions for a round 2 years now.

Can you blame them for shooting the last bullet before dying? Those missiles were invented as a way to include Israelis near Gaza to feel some of the fear Palestinians feel all the time since 1956 in Gaza Strip.

Whether the world sees those missiles as justifications for Israeli attacks, it doesn't matter anymore as that world won't do anything either wise.

People in Gaza decided to live in dignity. Even if that will not happen ever, they will always be remembered as people who at least tried.

 

[Sadomin]

You can't tell me Israelis were peaceful people before the first missile was launched from Gaza.

Look. I won't talk about all the Palestinian lands. I'll talk only about Gaza.

Gaza suffer a horrible siege now. Give the people there any way to lift the siege.

I'm talking here about a real siege, not a livable one. How many days can you live without electricity? without your natural food which is bread in Gaza? without kerosene in the winter for your kids? without clean water? without dignity? People there have been living in such conditions for a round 2 years now.

Can you blame them for shooting the last bullet before dying? Those missiles were invented as a way to include Israelis near Gaza to feel some of the fear Palestinians feel all the time since 1956 in Gaza Strip.

Whether the world sees those missiles as justifications for Israeli attacks, it doesn't matter anymore as that world won't do anything either wise.

People in Gaza decided to live in dignity. Even if that will not happen ever, they will always remembered as people who at least tried.

I never did, and I know that is not the case.

Look, my heart is with the innocent people of Palestine more than anyone else in this conflict. Their living conditions are atrocious and improving this should be top priority in any kind of diplomatic relations between the two parties.

However, if it is as you say, that it is dignity which is the motivation for the attacks, then perhaps it is time to put it aside (as painful as it might be) for a long-term solution. Step one would be recognizing Israel's existance as a state, because there is no way it will seize to exist. I think the way it was created in first place was wrong, but that does not change reality today.

What is the Palestinian opinion on Fayyad, by the way? He might not have this dignity you talk about, but at least Israel and the US listened to him.

I am off to bed.