Israeli-Palestinian conflict (67 Viewers)

[ReBeL]

Nope, that way you make Israel weaker, Palestinians stronger, and the wars will continue simply because the Palestinians won't accept the current situation with how's the land shared. And it will become even more ugly because now they won't be so helpless anymore.

Palestinians won't accept to leave the land lost in 1967 to Israel, while Israel won't accept giving it back to the Palestinians.

Alen, you don't seem to know an important fact:

Palestinians in 1988 under Arafat made a strategic painful decision to be satisfied with getting back the lands occupied in 1967, which are the West Bank and Gaza, which are 22% of historical Palestine, and accept an Israeli state beside the Palestinian state. On this base, Madrid conference for peace took place in 1991, and in 1993 Oslo agreement was signed by the two parties, but with time passing, it was so clear for Palestinians that Israelis were not serious about withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza, as they only withdrew from the cities and not from the rural areas making the Palestinian lands separate points that have no authority and no independence and hundreds of checkpoints were waiting for people out of the cities to go from one city to another one.

People were fed up with that trick of Oslo sponsored by USA seeing the Zionist settlements being built on their lands in the West Bank and Gaza as if no peace was supposed to go on, but Arafat could control all the rage under his hands because he knew how to be so diplomatic to all the Palestinian parties. In Camp David in 2000, Clinton brought Arafat and Israeli Barak and told them that they should make a final agreement. Arafat wondered about the form of the Palestinian state. The American suggestion was so silly that even Arafat rejected it. Clinton told him to stop asking for Jerusalem and to tell Palestinian refugees abroad to forget any hope of coming back to their lands ever. Arafat refused and said to Clinton: "No Palestinian leader can do that because simply he will be shot down before going back to Ramallah by one of the Palestinian refugees in this world that was hoping for all his life years to live in a dignity".

We all know how Arafat was sieged in his building in Ramallah for two years, and Israeli bulldozers were visiting him on a weekly basis to make him surrender his principles, but he didn't. Sharon, the Israeli criminal decided to kill Arafat to pave the way for more modest Palestinian leaders to lead the Palestinian hierarchy in order to enable Israelis to keep expansion making it look as if Palestinians don't refuse that at all. Arafat was poisoned by a very weird way, and Abbas came instead of him. Palestinians were so shocked with the murder of Arafat that they didn't care that much who succeeded him but after a while they knew it was an Israeli plan implemented by some of those who were around Arafat.

Here came Hamas when it refused corruption that spreaded all over the West Bank and Gaza, and fought against those who wanted to give Palestine, all Palestine on a golden plate to Israeli criminals. Hamas decided to compete in the elections, and Fatah, the corrupt party, didn't take it seriously that Hamas may win, so they allowed them to participate. Hamas DID win and the whole world was shocked with that. It was NOT an indication for Hamas familiarity, but rather the people's hatred for Abbas and his corrupted and traitor gang.

And you know the rest of the story.

Sorry for the very long post, but I felt that I had to write it.

 

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[Alen]

Oh give me a fuckin break... UnBan fred ffs....or ban me this is ridiculous

No, i will not unban him. He got a 7 day ban and he'll serve it. I don't care who was the one who wished death to other member's parents. I will ban everyone here who'll say such a thing and if it was a mod i'd have immediately asked for his resignation.

 

[Snoop]

Alen unban Fred man, he is a great guy. I don't agree with what he said, but banning him straightly for that is too harsh.

 

[CheSchifo!]

One of the better things that happened to entrenched radicalism and terrorism in the past 100 years was Northern Ireland. Of course, the circumstances were very different in a lot of ways. But things got a lot better once forces outside the area got the #$^% out of the way and attempted to leave it to the locals to work it out.

Yes, there's the history of how this cluster^%#$ was globally created. But there's an element here that makes me question that conventional wisdom of making it "The World's Problem"(tm), with involvement from everyone from U.S. politicians and money to other Arab nations, etc., -- has that been a greater recipe for a cluster#&^% there than anything else?? 60 years of failure can't be solved with "more of the same".

Isolationism is often a recipe for failure, of course. But it's never good when a region continually expects the rest of the world to help mediate their internal issues either, as it perpetuates victimhood thinking and diminishes expectations for people to be able to resolve their own problems.

The thing is that Israel is so much stronger than the Palestinians. It would lead to their eradication IMO.

 

[CheSchifo!]

No, i will not unban him. He got a 7 day ban and he'll serve it. I don't care who was the one who wished death to other member's parents. I will ban everyone here who'll say such a thing and if it was a mod i'd have immediately asked for his resignation.

I agree with you and if I were a mod I'd do the same, but I would like to say that I think Fred overreacted because he didn't get the point Bes and I were making. Which might have led him to say certain things he wouldn't have said otherwise.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Andy,

you live in a simpler and kinder world than the one Bes and I know. That's the true difference here. If you think about what we said again, you'll see that we never defended Israel.

post of the month from this clown

 

[CheSchifo!]

post of the month from this clown

You really think European nations care, don't you?

 

[Bjerknes]

Oh give me a fuckin break... UnBan fred ffs....or ban me this is ridiculous

He was just making a point, trying to ward off this strange double talk by a few individuals.

They say they don't defend Israel, yet all they do is post pictures of Hamas with children and talk about the holocaust. Of course Andries will claim he doesn't defend Israel, but the majority of his posts consist of defending the UN, claiming they're so wonderful and powerful, yet they never do anything to help the situation. I personally believe Andries is a conformist in this situation, based on his distaste for a certain religion, and for certain members who believe in that religion. We have seen countless times what happens when Islam and Andries come together for a cup of tea.

That's not an attack on you, Andries, but just the fact of the matter. You know I what I think about religion.

 

[swag]

No, i will not unban him. He got a 7 day ban and he'll serve it. I don't care who was the one who wished death to other member's parents. I will ban everyone here who'll say such a thing and if it was a mod i'd have immediately asked for his resignation.

Alen does make a reasonable point here, IMO.

Fred is a great poster and I like the guy. But lines have to be drawn no matter who is making violent wishes on someone's family here.

 

[Hambon]

No, i will not unban him. He got a 7 day ban and he'll serve it. I don't care who was the one who wished death to other member's parents. I will ban everyone here who'll say such a thing and if it was a mod i'd have immediately asked for his resignation.

Find it in your heart kind Sire

Alen unban Fred man, he is a great guy. I don't agree with what he said, but banning him straightly for that is too harsh.

thatswhatimtalkinbout

I agree with you and if I were a mod I'd do the same, but I would like to say that I think Fred overreacted because he didn't get the point Bes and I were making. Which might have led him to say certain things he wouldn't have said otherwise.

thatswhatweallincludingse7entalkinbout...

cant we all just fucking get along...:scarf:

 

[CheSchifo!]

He was just making a point, trying to ward off this strange double talk by a few individuals.

They say they don't defend Israel, yet all they do is post pictures of Hamas with children and talk about the holocaust. Of course Andries will claim he doesn't defend Israel, but the majority of his posts consist of defending the UN, claiming they're so wonderful and powerful, yet they never do anything to help the situation. I personally believe Andries is a conformist in this situation, based on his distaste for a certain religion, and for certain members who believe in that religion. We have seen countless times what happens when Islam and Andries come together for a cup of tea.

That's not an attack on you, Andries, but just the fact of the matter. You know I what I think about religion.

I've never posted a picture of Hamas with children. But you have to admit that Snoop's post was spot on.

No,

I said the UN is the only organisation there is. You can hate it, but there's no other solution, Andy. That's what I said. And, Andy, I have also said time and time again that for me this is not about religion. I don't like Islam and I don't like judaism. There is no difference whatsoever for me. Furthermore in a political conflict of this dimension I wouldn't even dream of dragging a personal distaste for a certain religion into the discussion. Israel has committed war crimes and has violated human rights. I have said it before and I'll say it again.

 

[Bjerknes]

I agree with you and if I were a mod I'd do the same, but I would like to say that I think Fred overreacted because he didn't get the point Bes and I were making. Which might have led him to say certain things he wouldn't have said otherwise.

Hilarious.

Canardo, I think this one is better.

 

[CheSchifo!]

Hilarious.

Canardo, I think this one is better.

You didn't get the point either. The both of you thought we stated we personally didn't care.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

No, i will not unban him. He got a 7 day ban and he'll serve it. I don't care who was the one who wished death to other member's parents. I will ban everyone here who'll say such a thing and if it was a mod i'd have immediately asked for his resignation.

since its kind of an unprecedented case could we settle it now and make it a bannable offense from now on; i dont think his wish was malicious but more reflective as in putting them in the shoes of those who lost their rents.

 

[Hambon]

 

[CheSchifo!]

since its kind of an unprecedented case could we settle it now and make it a bannable offense from now on; i dont think his wish was malicious but more reflective as in putting them in the shoes of those who lost their rents.

I doubt that anyone would make such a malicious wish on an internet forum anyway. But that's not what it's really about. You just don't say stuff like that.

 

[Oggy]

I didn't want to reply to you there because it is off-topic there.

Anyway, Hamas did not refuse anything. There is a siege since more than 2 years, but it was tightened since 6 months. The last truce agreement between Israel and palestinian resistants in Gaza including Hamas said:

1- No missiles from Gaza should be launched.
2- No attacks from Israel on Palestinians in Gaza.
3- Lifting the siege and allowing goods to enter Gaza strip and people to leave and enter Gaza freely.

The first two items were mostly applied, but the siege was never lifted. When the 6 months ended, Hamas was criticized in the Palestinian community because it could not lift the siege and everybody told it to end the truce unless the siege is ended.

You may see the siege as something immaterial but to know that no ill people could leave Gaza to be treated abroad causing tens of deaths, no students could leave or get in Gaza, no pilgrims to Saudi Arabia, no building tools are allowed to enter Gaza. Those are examples of the siege on Gaza.

So, the truce was ended because it was impossible to keep silent when people are dying in front of your eyes, and the coward world doesn't do anything.

Hamas decided to resume launching missiles into southern Israel to force Israel to lift the siege. Israel found it a good chance to make an invasion to Gaza and killed more than 1300 people. ANd I think you know the rest.

Just a question, what could Hamas do to end the siege?

Damn, I did Cronios kinda post but Interner connection is screwing me up so I'll try to put it short.

I know what siege is, I've been under one and it's a horrible thing for anyone.

The other thing I really didn't knew about siege thing in Gaza, I really don't follow up the news cuz I'm fed up with all those political games between "big ones" (I mean on US, Russia, EU etc. cuz they all act like they care, while they don't give a fuck) and cuz I don't follow up situation closely I didn't want to take a part into this thread.

Third thing what I tried to do is just make an observation cuz I hear on few occasions that Hamas is rejecting the truce. The thing that really bothers me is when they are giving statements like that while innocent people are getting killed and the worst part is that people who doesn't want the truce are ones who are comfortably sitting in their chairs and all watching on TV. Afcourse they don't want the truce, why? cuz they don't feel bombs that are falling all over Gaza.

Hamas also should have known what they will couse if they start fight with Israel again, I know it's wrong but it's better than make your people suffer even more. And now best that Hamas can get is temporary truce and some food and aid which means that they will be at the beginning. I have nothing against or for Israel or Palestina, but the fact is that as long as Israel is getting support from US they can do whatever they want and come unpunished. Also Palestinians can't do nothing about it (I know it's sad), except fight and suffer even more.

The worst thing for me is that I don't see changing of situation anytime soon, the best we could see is temporary truce and that's it as long as the big ones have their interest in this war. Also one thing that I'm sure is that ordinary people from Gaza and Israel doesn't want this war at all, but the leaders want cuz it's easiest way to be more powerful and rich. (Just look at ex-YU politicians).

 

[Bjerknes]

Andy,

you live in a simpler and kinder world than the one Bes and I know. That's the true difference here. If you think about what we said again, you'll see that we never defended Israel.

I've read this post several times; there is nothing in there that has any substance.

Seriously, that is the dumbest post you've ever written, Andries. You shouldn't take pride in that sort of comment.

If Fred is banned for what he did, then Andries should be banned for thinking he knows "what sort of world" I live in.

Jeez, what the hell do you know about me? Stupid post.

 

[Bjerknes]

since its kind of an unprecedented case could we settle it now and make it a bannable offense from now on; i dont think his wish was malicious but more reflective as in putting them in the shoes of those who lost their rents.

Agreed.

 

[swag]

The thing is that Israel is so much stronger than the Palestinians. It would lead to their eradication IMO.

Yes and no. The lessons of the Nazi Holocaust are there, certainly.

But people living as second-class, persecuted citizens in occupied lands is not unique in the history of the world. (And not to compare what the Palestinians are experiencing to that of American former slaves, but we've even had that in the U.S in the past few decades that we're still just climbing out of since the Civil Rights movement.) Power imbalance is inevitable. India under British rule. East Timor under Indonesian rule.

I just don't feel that's a strong enough justification to say that the entire world must meddle in the affairs of what's happening there -- for one side or the other.