What about the Berbers? what about the Red Indians, why don't we give them countries while we're at it?
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Israeli-Palestinian conflict (64 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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What about the Berbers? what about the Red Indians, why don't we give them countries while we're at it?
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Correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument is that Jews deserve a homeland in Palestine because that's where they came from. I have nothing against Jews living in Palestine, I just don't believe they deserve their own country there when there were people already living there. Not only that, but they were given that land, they didn't have to fight for it. To achieve something by your own means vs being handed something is very different. In other words, they don't deserve to call that place their home.
Let me get this straight.
We are all blessed that our nations have states. You, me, Ze, [almost] everyone here. However it happened in history, that's the end result. There are other nations that don't have a state. But since they haven't been able to conquer territory by force, we don't give a shit about them.
Is that the gist of it?
We are all blessed that our nations have states. You, me, Ze, [almost] everyone here. However it happened in history, that's the end result. There are other nations that don't have a state. But since they haven't been able to conquer territory by force, we don't give a shit about them.
Is that the gist of it?
Not really. I'm just saying if there's a nationality that lives in exile and makes a claim for its own state, that's something you should take seriously. I'm not saying I know what to do about it.
Acknowledge the problem vs ignore it, that's the score here.
And there is no end to nations wanting to break free from their "big brothers". Generally we acknowledge that they have a point. Pakistan did it. Chechnya, the Baltic states, Kosovo recently.
Acknowledge the problem vs ignore it, that's the score here.
And there is no end to nations wanting to break free from their "big brothers". Generally we acknowledge that they have a point. Pakistan did it. Chechnya, the Baltic states, Kosovo recently.
I'm not saying thats right, but thats the way things are. In the past, land was decided by war. now we've become more civilized(or so i hoped). I didn't say we shouldn't give a shit about them, i said there are solutions other than just giving people a nation.
I mean what about the people already living there? do we just throw them out and tell them "hey, the kurds want a country, get the fuck out of here and find yourself a new home"?
Like i said, you can solve these problems without handing out nations to everyone that claims he has a right to one.
I mean what about the people already living there? do we just throw them out and tell them "hey, the kurds want a country, get the fuck out of here and find yourself a new home"?
Like i said, you can solve these problems without handing out nations to everyone that claims he has a right to one.
Should they have a state or shouldn't they, that's what I'm discussing here.
Suppose Jews went to live in Palestine, right? It's their historic homeland or whatever. Then they made a claim to have their own state. Preeeetty much what happened with India vs Pakistan. Question is should India cede territory so that the state of Pakistan can be established?
Suppose Jews went to live in Palestine, right? It's their historic homeland or whatever. Then they made a claim to have their own state. Preeeetty much what happened with India vs Pakistan. Question is should India cede territory so that the state of Pakistan can be established?
Fine, if that's where you stand then stick with it. But please don't preach ethics. If conquest by force is your currency then everyone is allowed to participate.
Such as?
No, but you could conceivably give them territories that are less valuable. Take the Kurds, I bet they'd settle for a chunk of land with lots of mountains in it. That's where they are now. And it's not like they really have anything to bargain with. Obviously, *someone* would have to move, that's unavoidable. But it's for the "greater good" and you could try to compensate those people in some way.
I mean if you had to give up your own house so that 1 million Kurds didn't have to live in refugee camps under appalling conditions, wouldn't you take a moment to think it over?
The thing is though, with today's technology you can pretty much have create settlements anywhere.
Such as?
No, but you could conceivably give them territories that are less valuable. Take the Kurds, I bet they'd settle for a chunk of land with lots of mountains in it. That's where they are now. And it's not like they really have anything to bargain with. Obviously, *someone* would have to move, that's unavoidable. But it's for the "greater good" and you could try to compensate those people in some way.
I mean if you had to give up your own house so that 1 million Kurds didn't have to live in refugee camps under appalling conditions, wouldn't you take a moment to think it over?
The thing is though, with today's technology you can pretty much have create settlements anywhere.
It's just as much of a homeland as it is to Palestinians, no? If they are given the freedom to practice their religion and were given the basic rights everyone else enjoyed then why would they want a separate homeland?
Pakistan didn't want independence because they claimed a certain part of India as their homeland, I don't know where you're getting that from. The idea of a separate state for Muslims came about because after hundreds of years of Muslim rule in India, the Hindu's were waiting for their turn to rule themselves once again. The Muslims foreseeing future problems with this decided they wanted their own country.
Pakistan didn't want independence because they claimed a certain part of India as their homeland, I don't know where you're getting that from. The idea of a separate state for Muslims came about because after hundreds of years of Muslim rule in India, the Hindu's were waiting for their turn to rule themselves once again. The Muslims foreseeing future problems with this decided they wanted their own country.
We're both saying it. Ze said Pakistan was gotten through the struggles and lives of his ancestors. Well just the same Israel is taking what they say is "rightfully theirs", guess what, by force. So as long as we keep saying whatever was taken by force belongs to the conqueror, then we're never gonna solve this problem, are we?
They can, and that's an intelligent solution. But if a certain nationality group is oppressed by the majority, or they decide for whatever reason that they want to break free, you have a problem on your hands.
The moral question is who suffers more. The guy who has to leave his house and relocate to the other side of the country. Or a guy who lives in a disease ridden refugee camp, has to endure hunger and misery all his life.
They can, and that's an intelligent solution. But if a certain nationality group is oppressed by the majority, or they decide for whatever reason that they want to break free, you have a problem on your hands.
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