Is torture acceptable? (13 Viewers)

[rounder]

So you believe in god, and wanna think that god knows best whats right and wrong.

Theism cannot fail while there are people who believe in fantasies, and those people were not, are not and will not be in any shortage anytime soon.

No disrespect, but you have an annoying habbit of oversimplifying things and unjustly acting cynically towards theism. I don't know if this is due to the fact that you don't really understand what I am saying or whether you just enjoy being incredibly annoying.

 

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[rounder]

No, you got me all wrong, swag. I don't think it's a determinant. To me it would make little sense. But there happens to be this study which claims that people who are believers seem to condone torture faster. I don't think religion is the determinant at all, but I do think there's something else which might cause this.

Let's say poverty makes people condone torture for example and let's say poverty makes them religious as well. Then you get the same result the study had, but the determinant is poverty.

Martin had a good idea here: let's say that in countries that have a certain religious regime people are more bound to believe whatever the regime tells them, because that's what they're used to. Now the regime tells them torture is acceptable.

Religion is not the important factor, the regime is.

Perhaps people who tend to choose religion are naturally more compassionate than atheists.

 

[Seven]

Perhaps people who tend to choose religion are naturally more compassionate than atheists.

Perhaps.

But there is no empirical proof of that whatsoever.

 

[Martin]

Perhaps people who tend to choose religion are naturally more compassionate than atheists.

Say again? So if you are more compassionate you are more supportive of torture? How does that make sense?

 

[Raz]

No disrespect, but you have an annoying habbit of oversimplifying things and unjustly acting cynically towards theism. I don't know if this is due to the fact that you don't really understand what I am saying or whether you just enjoy being incredibly annoying.

None taken, and i understand what you are saying.

You believe believe in god, and want everything in life to have a purpose, every action to be good or bad, because it is written somewhere in gods diary that it is so. So you invent moral objectivity, so this would streanghten your belief of god, you are just looking too much for god. If will want to see it you will see it, but it wont necessary be true.

You see what you wanna see.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

This thread has made me become all confused about the concept of torture, would mandatory death by hanging or the electric chair etc be considered torture if someone was found guilty of murder?

 

[Martin]

This thread has made me become all confused about the concept of torture, would mandatory death by hanging or the electric chair etc be considered torture if someone was found guilty of murder?

That's not how I intended it, I meant torture as an instrument of interrogation.

But the electric chair would certainly be equivalent to torture, wouldn't you say?

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Oh, interrogation. I don't know, people might come out with bollocks just to save their ass and if one's determination and will or loyalty is strong enough torture won't do much good now would it? But according to the telly is actually torturing the person's loved ones, that usually works.

As for the electric chair, yeah I've always thought that's a bit cruel, I think if you have the tools you should kill someone quickly and swiftly a la guillotine. Disgusting, but anything's better than a slow death.

 

[swag]

No, you got me all wrong, swag. I don't think it's a determinant. To me it would make little sense. But there happens to be this study which claims that people who are believers seem to condone torture faster. I don't think religion is the determinant at all, but I do think there's something else which might cause this.

Let's say poverty makes people condone torture for example and let's say poverty makes them religious as well. Then you get the same result the study had, but the determinant is poverty.

Martin had a good idea here: let's say that in countries that have a certain religious regime people are more bound to believe whatever the regime tells them, because that's what they're used to. Now the regime tells them torture is acceptable.

Religion is not the important factor, the regime is.

I'd agree with that. Which is why I think it odd to explore the God belief angle in the poll. A better survey, IMO, would be whether someone supports torture and lives in a place like Afghanistan, Pakistan's Swat Valley, North Korea, Iran, etc. and compare that with some of the so-called Western democracies.

I would guess that cultural environment plays a significant role.

 

[Enron]

This thread has made me become all confused about the concept of torture, would mandatory death by hanging or the electric chair etc be considered torture if someone was found guilty of murder?

Some even consider lethal injection to be torture.

 

[Enron]

Perhaps people who tend to choose religion are naturally more compassionate than atheists.

Guess someone missed out on the Inquisition and the Crusades part of history class, not to mention the on-going Jihad.

 

[rounder]

Guess someone missed out on the Inquisition and the Crusades part of history class, not to mention the on-going Jihad.

I was referring to my own religion, Christianity. People who are Christian do tend to be more compassionate, yes. This is at least my impression of things, of course, I could be very wrong. But since Christians believe it is morally wrong to torture children no matter what the law states as opposed to Atheists then I may not be very wrong in my generalization.

 

[pitbull]

You dont think the god was cruel? Almost everything to him was to the death, well not only to the death, but to the curse of four or five generations if you misbehave and there are pleanty of stupid reasons one can misbehave with. Thats loving and caring right?

Further god wiped villages just for the sake of it, just to show his power, and boy you are out of luck if you arent from the chosen tribe of his because then you almost have no rights whatsoever, unless if you are a slave to them, then you have some rights.

God slaughtered whole tribes, just to prove his power to his people, what about the ones he slaughtered? Thats got to show he is loving right?

And even if you are a Jew, his chosen one you still are walking a thin line, you misbehave - you are dead. No he is just a perfect explanation of caring and loving guy .

And In the New testament such a change in his character, his personality, like it was a different god? You will say its because of Jesus. Well if there is such a big change dont you think its like admiting you were wrong and trying to correct things?

At that time almost if not all of the gods in Europe were this cruel, so a change in philosophy really did gave Jesus or whatever did this a boost. Everybody were tired of being pushed down like that, so here came a loving, forgiving, caring god. And everbody fell in love with this wishful philosophy.

Religion is the oldest lie there is. And manipulation at its finest.

Old testament is like a history, like an explanation to how this all started, why it is going the way it is and stuff. You use the word God slaughtered - that's from your point of view. He was loving back then too and everyone got a fair chance and free will to choose, people and God live in much closer relationships, they got their warnings, but some nations like egiptians choosed to believe in their inexisting God's and were proved wrong with that choice, and whatever - if there is not point to live here, why all these strong words, they would die sooner or later anyway and nothing would change if they would live 40 years longer.

Jesus didn't come because God admitted he is wrong. He came to give us purpose for our lifes, as we standed no chance to live perfect life and get the eternal life, since sin was in us since we were born. That's why there is New Testament, since the death and resurrection of Jesus changed everything, if you try to attack the principles of it, don't use the Old Testament, since the basic teaching lies in the new one. If religion is lie, than history is one big lie too, as the oldest exemplars and oldest translations of bible are way more older than any other historical work of that time.

 

[Raz]

Ok.

 

[Raz]

translations of bible are way more older than any other historical work of that time.

What? so it is the oldest historical document on earth?

 

[Seven]

Old testament is like a history, like an explanation to how this all started, why it is going the way it is and stuff. You use the word God slaughtered - that's from your point of view. He was loving back then too and everyone got a fair chance and free will to choose, people and God live in much closer relationships, they got their warnings, but some nations like egiptians choosed to believe in their inexisting God's and were proved wrong with that choice, and whatever - if there is not point to live here, why all these strong words, they would die sooner or later anyway and nothing would change if they would live 40 years longer.

Jesus didn't come because God admitted he is wrong. He came to give us purpose for our lifes, as we standed no chance to live perfect life and get the eternal life, since sin was in us since we were born. That's why there is New Testament, since the death and resurrection of Jesus changed everything, if you try to attack the principles of it, don't use the Old Testament, since the basic teaching lies in the new one. If religion is lie, than history is one big lie too, as the oldest exemplars and oldest translations of bible are way more older than any other historical work of that time.

In one word: no.

 

[Seven]

Some even consider lethal injection to be torture.

The European Union for one.

 

[Enron]

I was referring to my own religion, Christianity. People who are Christian do tend to be more compassionate, yes. This is at least my impression of things, of course, I could be very wrong. But since Christians believe it is morally wrong to torture children no matter what the law states as opposed to Atheists then I may not be very wrong in my generalization.

Christians are some of the least compassionate people I know. Tell a Christian you think gays should have right or that Muslims are ok people and they get all up in arms about how you should go to hell and even speak of violence. Last time I checked that wasn't compassion, hell it's not even "Christian".


Your generalization of Atheists as child murderers is rather wrong. There are far more god-fearing priests with their hands on little kids than Atheists.

 

[Raz]

Christians are some of the least compassionate people I know. Tell a Christian you think gays should have right or that Muslims are ok people and they get all up in arms about how you should go to hell and even speak of violence. Last time I checked that wasn't compassion, hell it's not even "Christian".

That is so true, at least from my personal experience. Their moral values suddenly change when the issue is gays, muslims or even other religions.

 

[Martin]

That is so true, at least from my personal experience. Their moral values suddenly change when the issue is gays, muslims or even other religions.

Or atheists. Some Christians are really freaked out by atheists.