Is it okay to make fun of religion? (11 Viewers)

[Hist]

Snake_midget - How about before you present something to these people who are just looking to pounce on anything you tell them WHO it is that actually believes in those things.

Islam has over a billion followers and just as we here all differ in opinion so do we. There are some Muslims who believe in flying donkeys while others laugh at it. There are some Muslims who believe that a monster that has one leg in the East and one leg in West, spits fire out its mouth and have people in its belly will come one day and then there are those who clearly see that was a metaphor for trains and airplanes.

The views on Jinns, Hassad and the like are orthodox Islamic doctrines.
I have just posted 3 Fatwa sites that say the same thing about the evil eye/Hassad thing.
Try to differentiate between what Islam is and what you would like it to be.
I've been where you are now and i've tried giving different explanations to each of these and i've found supporters of my views on how we can interpret these things. But my interpretations were based on reason only, whilst the opposing interpretations (like those mentioned in the Fatwa sites) were supported by quranic verses as well as more than one strong hadith.

 

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[Zé Tahir]

I don't believe in any of their fatwas. There is a fatwa out on people of my religion so no thank you. Any Muslims that declares another a non-Muslim cannot be taken seriously.

My views are supported from the Qur'an as well, but which ones makes sense? Your interpretation led you to become an agnostic so no thanks I'll stick with my interpretations. If I started beleiving about dragons coming to earth, and that in the end of the days someone will come and slaughter the nonbelievers and butcher the pigs (a belief some Muslims actually hold believe it or not) then I'd become atheist/agnostic as well.

 

[Seven]

Yes. So people who are atheists are those who didn't interpret the Qur'an well.

 

[Hist]

I don't believe in any of their fatwas. There is a fatwa out on people of my religion so no thank you. Any Muslims that declares another a non-Muslim cannot be taken seriously.

My views are supported from the Qur'an as well, but which ones makes sense? Your interpretation led you to become an agnostic so no thanks I'll stick with my interpretations. If I started beleiving about dragons coming to earth, and that in the end of the days someone will come and slaughter the nonbelievers and butcher the pigs (a belief some Muslims actually hold believe it or not) then I'd become atheist/agnostic as well.

Prophet mohammed believed in Jinns in the way he described it to us. He believed in the evil eye (hassad) and clearly said what it does... You can believe all you want but what you believe is not what prophet mohammed taught so unless you admit he might be wrong (which i think he is in this part) or or you admit that you do not believe in everything that mohammed says.. just some.
as i said there is a difference between what mohammed teached and what you wish he had teached. Don't squeeze religion to fit your standards see it as it is.
This took me a lot of time and guts to admit it... I've been through a lot of shit..
you know that according to Sharia law i should get killed because i am somewhat of an apostate

 

[Fred]

you should see what Shiites do to celebrate the martyrdom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tveXLR5Qg_w

This is real blood... they cut themselves.. beat themselves.. their children do the same and they do for them..
Sufis are even worse... these are clear examples of how religion can be more than harmful

Yes bring up the Shiites. None of us here are Shiites, and while i am not a cleric so i can't produce a fatwa or anything, but i find it hard to believe they are muslims. Some of their rituals just disgust me, and i dare you to find from the Quran or Hadith anything that supports rituals like the ones they do in "3ashura"

Prophet mohammed believed in Jinns in the way he described it to us. He believed in the evil eye (hassad) and clearly said what it does... You can believe all you want but what you believe is not what prophet mohammed taught so unless you admit he might be wrong (which i think he is in this part) or or you admit that you do not believe in everything that mohammed says.. just some.
as i said there is a difference between what mohammed teached and what you wish he had teached. Don't squeeze religion to fit your standards see it as it is.
This took me a lot of time and guts to admit it... I've been through a lot of shit..
you know that according to Sharia law i should get killed because i am somewhat of an apostate

That is highly debatable. I for one do not believe it.

 

[*aca*]

yes. No exceptions.

 

[Fred]

Ok, is it ok to make fun of a popular person's dead father. If not then why?

 

[*aca*]

Ok, is it ok to make fun of a popular person's dead father. If not then why?

Actual father? it would probably be in bad taste.

Imaginary father? always.

 

[Martin]

aca, bes made an amusing poll: http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27678

 

[Fred]

Actual father? it would probably be in bad taste.

Imaginary father? always.

But should it be allowed. Actual Father, lets forget about the prophet(PBUH) for a while here.

 

[Hist]

Yes bring up the Shiites. None of us here are Shiites, and while i am not a cleric so i can't produce a fatwa or anything, but i find it hard to believe they are muslims. Some of their rituals just disgust me, and i dare you to find from the Quran or Hadith anything that supports rituals like the ones they do in "3ashura"




That is highly debatable. I for one do not believe it.

Shiism is definitely unorthodox Islam i by no means claim that what they are doing is supported by any Hadith or any Quranic verse.. it is just sick stupid rituals.


Regarding apostasy, according to the 4 Major Madhabs (Schools of Law)
An apostate is to be killed, they differ on whether they should give him time to repent or not and if yes how much?
An apostates Marriage is condemned as Batil. His property in most Madhabs becomes owned by the People. I wrote an entire paper on apostasy.
However these are the traditional 4 schools of Law and they support their claim by 2 Hadiths of the prophet One reported by Ibn Abbas and the other reported by both Ibn Abbas and Aisha the prophet's wife. They also support their claim by the actions of the 4 rightly guided Caliphs towards apostates.
It is worth noticing though that it is nowhere in the Quran stated that an apostate is to be killed, only in the two hadith.


On the other hand, modernists argue on the premise that the Quran never states that we should kill apostates, it only condemns them in the after life. They actually give a pretty good argument using Quranic Verses against the execution of apostates but they fail at finding an excuse for the rightly guided caliphs and more importantly, the 2 Hadiths.


The traditional view of the 4 Madhabs (schools of law) is most popular and most dominant. Only a small minority (open minded people who are highly influenced by liberalist ideas like yourselves) support the modernist view.


Why is the less just view more popular?
Thats simple, In orthodox Sunni Islam, Islamic Shari'a law is based on four sources with varying weights.
1) The Quran (this holds the highest and supreme weight)
2) The Hadith (2nd strongest)
3) Qiyas or Analogy (they decide on modern situations by looking at old situation and by analogy derive the rules to follow etc.)
4) Ijmaa' or Consensus (Through the Use of reason, the Islamic scholars have to agree about a topic.)
Note that Reason which is part of (4) has the least weight and is the last step to solve a problem.

In the case of apostasy, (1) The quran does not say what to do with apostates so this moves us to looking at Hadith.
(2) Hadith shows that apostates are to be killed.
* So the 4 Madhabs stop here, they dont use reason as part of the process, its the last step if the other 3 failed.
On the other hand, modernists value reason as higher than hadith and analogy and so they escape the problem of the 2 hadiths made by the prophet(they wouldnt admit that though).

 

[Zé Tahir]

I think we can all agree on something here.

You have the freedom to have house parties, correct? You're allowed to play music, correct? But after a certain time or after if your music is too loud the police come and shut it down. Why? Because even though you have the freedom to have a party you have to take the sensitivities of your neighbor into consideration. Even clubs shut down after a certain time because of the same reasons. Where your freedom steps on someone else's freedom the law steps in.

Similarly, I think you should be able to joke about religion but as long as its in your own circle. Meaning, you shouldn't stand in a public park with a microphone telling jokes but you've every right to do it in the privacy of your home, at comedy club, at a concert, or what have you.

What do you guys think?

 

[Martin]

I think we can all agree on something here.

You have the freedom to have house parties, correct? You're allowed to play music, correct? But after a certain time or after if your music is too loud the police come and shut it down. Why? Because even though you have the freedom to have a party you have to take the sensitivities of your neighbor into consideration. Even clubs shut down after a certain time because of the same reasons. Where your freedom steps on someone else's freedom the law steps in.

Similarly, I think you should be able to joke about religion but as long as its in your own circle. Meaning, you shouldn't stand in a public park with a microphone telling jokes but you've every right to do it in the privacy of your home, at comedy club, at a concert, or what have you.

What do you guys think?

So on tv it is forbidden or?

 

[king Ale]

I think we can all agree on something here.

You have the freedom to have house parties, correct? You're allowed to play music, correct? But after a certain time or after if your music is too loud the police come and shut it down. Why? Because even though you have the freedom to have a party you have to take the sensitivities of your neighbor into consideration. Even clubs shut down after a certain time because of the same reasons. Where your freedom steps on someone else's freedom the law steps in.

Similarly, I think you should be able to joke about religion but as long as its in your own circle. Meaning, you shouldn't stand in a public park with a microphone telling jokes but you've every right to do it in the privacy of your home, at comedy club, at a concert, or what have you.

What do you guys think?

No Tahir, this is a wrong analogy IMO. You can't ask/force the people who are living in the neighborhood of a club, who might be suffering from the loud noises coming out from there, to leave their homes and sleep somewhere else in order to get rid of the bothersome noises but you can pass someone who's joking about Islam in a public park. You don't have to listen to what he says. No one forces you to do this. You also can turn off your TV when something similar is being showed there. And you also can easily ignore the anti-Islam comments Seven makes here and there. You don't have to take part in religious discussions if they annoy you.

 

[Hist]

So on tv it is forbidden or?

As Tahir said, it is a question of Tolerance. We live together and each of us has his own beliefs and ideologies. If we cant reach agreement we should respect each others' beliefs... the other alternative would lead to hate and eventually violence.
The problem is that with religion in general is that it is a very sensitive topic that we all differ on..
People base their entire life based on those beliefs and we all see examples of what people do for their faith.

unless you are juve revolution and you think there is a moral objective law that says do not make jokes about other religions, tolerating other people's beliefs is what in my opinion is morally right.

 

[Zé Tahir]

So on tv it is forbidden or?

Nope. Let 'em have it. You don't have to tune into it. It's not like I watch the Animal Planet, but it's there. Of course, I think people should take some social responsibility. If a TV channel is ok with losing a certain audience then that's their choice.

No Tahir, this is a wrong analogy IMO. You can't ask/force the people who are living in the neighborhood of a club, who might be suffering from the loud noises coming out from there, to leave their homes and sleep somewhere else in order to get rid of the bothersome noises but you can pass someone who's joking about Islam in a public park. You don't have to listen to what he says. No one forces you to do this. You also can turn off your TV when something similar is being showed there. And you also can easily ignore the anti-Islam comments Seven makes here and there. You don't have to take part in religious discussions if they annoy you.

Clubs usually aren't around residential locations Hoori. Clubs shut down early because of other reasons than loud music late into the night. They have to clean the area, there are laws forbidding the sale and consumption of alcohol in public places after a certain hour.

Also, the park is for everyone to enjoy. Why should I have to leave because someone wants to stand there and shout out offensive material?

There are nudist beaches where you're allowed to walk around nude. If you're a nudist you can't walk into a random park nude. You could say, well if you don't want to see naked people leave the park but that's not how it works. Your counter argument doesn't stand here I'm afraid.

 

[king Ale]

As Tahir said, it is a question of Tolerance. We live together and each of us has his own beliefs and ideologies. If we cant reach agreement we should respect each others' beliefs... the other alternative would lead to hate and eventually violence.
The problem is that with religion in general is that it is a very sensitive topic that we all differ on..
People base their entire life based on those beliefs and we all see examples of what people do for their faith.

unless you are juve revolution and you think there is a moral objective law that says do not make jokes about other religions, tolerating other people's beliefs is what in my opinion is morally right.

In my book, tolerating other people's beliefs is to let them make fun of my beliefs as much as they want, to stay calm and not to get fired up.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Which I agree with.

 

[Azzurri7]

I think there are limits for everything. At least for me, this is how I set my life on, limits for everything.

You can't go in a park for example and see religious person sitting and then start making fun out of religion. It doesn't make sense and it's way off the limits. You can argue, debate, criticize certain things but not make fun of them or what they believe in, you think it's funny, you can say it to him but in a proper and classy way. Also depends how you define fun. Each one has his own way of making fun.

Also the religious person shouldn't be strict and not accept a joke, that's not normal too. But like I said there are limits for everything.

You know your limits, you know how you adapt to certain things, you know when to joke when not to and it's all good.

 

[Martin]

In my book, tolerating other people's beliefs is to let them make fun of my beliefs as much as they want, to stay calm and not to get fired up.

Precisely