So maybe we dont have free will after all then? How can you know that he isnt constantly interfering with our decisions for the greater good? Wouldnt he contradict himself if it were true?
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Is it okay to make fun of religion? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Martin
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Tell me this, why would you turn yourself into a slave of some being that you cannot know if he exists or not. You are basing your entire life on a claim that you can never know for certain? on a feeling?
All you have is ancient texts describing myth like stories about people, that the text claims , used to live in more ancient times and that divine being has actually intervened in their actual world.
From where we stand it is easy to notice that God does not intervene in the world, it is easy to see that no divine event ever happened to us or to anyone we can know of except for the persons who told us the myth like stories.
Do you believe that when you pray God intervenes/responds in anyway?
Christians pray to Jesus all the time and i often hear "the lord have answered my prayers" but Muslims pray to Allah and i hear them saying the same thing (but in Arabic) i actually know 2 pagan friends and they too believe their God answer their prayers. SO who does the real God answer to?
Can you support a claim that suggests that what happens with christians, jews and pagans are merely a coincidence whilst what happens with muslims is God's intervention? I can pray to a fire until something out of the billion things i wished for actually becomes true and i would think that my god (fire) answered my prayers.
Look closely around you, and point out where does god intervene and where does he not. Look at any event that you say "god saved us" or whatever, and think to yourself: if i were of another religion or an athiest or an agnostic... would this have affected the event?
You draw your conclusions but look closely and throw away emotions to sustain objectivity as much as possible.
All you have is ancient texts describing myth like stories about people, that the text claims , used to live in more ancient times and that divine being has actually intervened in their actual world.
From where we stand it is easy to notice that God does not intervene in the world, it is easy to see that no divine event ever happened to us or to anyone we can know of except for the persons who told us the myth like stories.
Do you believe that when you pray God intervenes/responds in anyway?
Christians pray to Jesus all the time and i often hear "the lord have answered my prayers" but Muslims pray to Allah and i hear them saying the same thing (but in Arabic) i actually know 2 pagan friends and they too believe their God answer their prayers. SO who does the real God answer to?
Can you support a claim that suggests that what happens with christians, jews and pagans are merely a coincidence whilst what happens with muslims is God's intervention? I can pray to a fire until something out of the billion things i wished for actually becomes true and i would think that my god (fire) answered my prayers.
Look closely around you, and point out where does god intervene and where does he not. Look at any event that you say "god saved us" or whatever, and think to yourself: if i were of another religion or an athiest or an agnostic... would this have affected the event?
You draw your conclusions but look closely and throw away emotions to sustain objectivity as much as possible.
First of all, I don't think most people who pray actually buy this "genie in a bottle" idea. I think to them praying is more like writing in a diary. "Today was difficult. Give me strength for tomorrow", that sort of thing. This is the impression I get from people when prayer comes up in conversation, they don't think you can ask him for a car and next day you'll have a car. (This would be disastrous for the economy btw.)
So obviously, if you calibrate your requests in such a way that they only ask for "strength" or "courage", ie. quantities that are not measurable, then you set your expectations up not to be disappointed. I also think people who pray actually believe in this "god's will" stuff, so when they don't get what they want they think back to some day when they did get what they wanted, and they tell themselves "perhaps I don't deserve this, perhaps god will grant it if I do something else" etc.
In that regard it's not really slavery, it's more like having a rich and powerful friend who can do favors for you if you make him happy.
So obviously, if you calibrate your requests in such a way that they only ask for "strength" or "courage", ie. quantities that are not measurable, then you set your expectations up not to be disappointed. I also think people who pray actually believe in this "god's will" stuff, so when they don't get what they want they think back to some day when they did get what they wanted, and they tell themselves "perhaps I don't deserve this, perhaps god will grant it if I do something else" etc.
In that regard it's not really slavery, it's more like having a rich and powerful friend who can do favors for you if you make him happy.
well i think the same as you but most of my Muslim friends do not.
They think that God really answers people's prayer while i say all events can easily be explained in terms of causality and that would leave no room for good.
I see prayer as an emotional experience to get people's hopes up when they are desperate, scared, lost but nothing changes if you pray or not...nothing changes except your inner mentality.
Muslims believe in the evil eye and here in egypt people lie about everything they own because they are scared that someone will "look" at their stuff with the evil eye... you cannot imagine how it is unless you are from an arab country and especially egypt. Turkey is even worse you'll find the blue amulet that supposedly protects from the evil eye on every wall, building, museum, restaurant..etc
http://images.google.com.eg/imgres?...w=114&prev=/images?q=evil+eye&hl=en&sa=N&um=1
They think that God really answers people's prayer while i say all events can easily be explained in terms of causality and that would leave no room for good.
I see prayer as an emotional experience to get people's hopes up when they are desperate, scared, lost but nothing changes if you pray or not...nothing changes except your inner mentality.
Muslims believe in the evil eye and here in egypt people lie about everything they own because they are scared that someone will "look" at their stuff with the evil eye... you cannot imagine how it is unless you are from an arab country and especially egypt. Turkey is even worse you'll find the blue amulet that supposedly protects from the evil eye on every wall, building, museum, restaurant..etc
http://images.google.com.eg/imgres?...w=114&prev=/images?q=evil+eye&hl=en&sa=N&um=1
It is heavily founded in Hadith as the evil eye that i just described two posts ago.. some form of superpower that can ruin other people's lives.
There is a story of the prophet when his daughter got him grand sons (if i remember correctly). Many people where coming to congratulate him for the baby so a women told him to be cautious that people's evil eye might hurt the baby. So he hid the babies and instead put a rock on his lap and covered it (as if it was the baby)... people came and go to congratulate him thinking whats under the cover was the baby... when they left the prophet removed the cover and the rock was found split in half. ( I dont know if this story is well founded but almost everyone here believes in it)
This shows how much powerful muslims think the evil eye is.
However, modernists tend to give less weight to hadith and focus more on Quran and somewhat reason so you have the
modernist view which is that an envyer harms others by his actions towards the envied.
http://umma.ws/Fatwa/world-of-soul/hasad/
And you have the traditional view (which is way more popular) which is that the evil eye is magic like power.(supported by strong hadiths)
http://english.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?Option=FatwaId&lang=E&Id=85883
I am sure you and seven will love the part in the second link where he says " "Evil Eye" is a fact. There is no doubt about that." and he supports that by hadith. That is what constitutes facts to people here, if its in the quran or the hadith.. regardless of what we can actually observe in life.
There is a story of the prophet when his daughter got him grand sons (if i remember correctly). Many people where coming to congratulate him for the baby so a women told him to be cautious that people's evil eye might hurt the baby. So he hid the babies and instead put a rock on his lap and covered it (as if it was the baby)... people came and go to congratulate him thinking whats under the cover was the baby... when they left the prophet removed the cover and the rock was found split in half. ( I dont know if this story is well founded but almost everyone here believes in it)
This shows how much powerful muslims think the evil eye is.
However, modernists tend to give less weight to hadith and focus more on Quran and somewhat reason so you have the
modernist view which is that an envyer harms others by his actions towards the envied.
http://umma.ws/Fatwa/world-of-soul/hasad/
And you have the traditional view (which is way more popular) which is that the evil eye is magic like power.(supported by strong hadiths)
http://english.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?Option=FatwaId&lang=E&Id=85883
I am sure you and seven will love the part in the second link where he says " "Evil Eye" is a fact. There is no doubt about that." and he supports that by hadith. That is what constitutes facts to people here, if its in the quran or the hadith.. regardless of what we can actually observe in life.
okay i've been doing some reading.
Yes the belief in the evil eye is a superstition that stems from Islam itself rather than its culture.
I've came across three fatwas so far saying the same thing... it is heavily supported by hadith as well as quranic verses.
"Anyone who denies, mocks or has doubt about the effect of this Prophetic way of healing will never benefit from it. The same applies to anyone who does it in way of trial without full conviction. Why not regard this as part of the privileges in the Islamic perspective instead of condemning it. Medical practitioners acknowledge that in the field of medicine there are some areas that are untouchable and are somehow deemed as very unique."
HAHAHAHA!
Check here the islamic cure against Nazar/envy
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543922
http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?t=6932
EDIT:
and this is Gold
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3515
Yes the belief in the evil eye is a superstition that stems from Islam itself rather than its culture.
I've came across three fatwas so far saying the same thing... it is heavily supported by hadith as well as quranic verses.
"Anyone who denies, mocks or has doubt about the effect of this Prophetic way of healing will never benefit from it. The same applies to anyone who does it in way of trial without full conviction. Why not regard this as part of the privileges in the Islamic perspective instead of condemning it. Medical practitioners acknowledge that in the field of medicine there are some areas that are untouchable and are somehow deemed as very unique."
HAHAHAHA!
Check here the islamic cure against Nazar/envy
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543922
http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?t=6932
EDIT:
and this is Gold
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3515
and that is why i am an agnostic..
while mohammed made miraculous predictions and did a lot of stuff that made me think he is a messenger of God.... things like jinn (which pre-Islamic arabia also believed in), Hassad (evil eye), magic and the likes make him seem like just a wise nomad that is affected by the culture around him like everyone else.
while mohammed made miraculous predictions and did a lot of stuff that made me think he is a messenger of God.... things like jinn (which pre-Islamic arabia also believed in), Hassad (evil eye), magic and the likes make him seem like just a wise nomad that is affected by the culture around him like everyone else.
Snake_midget - How about before you present something to these people who are just looking to pounce on anything you tell them WHO it is that actually believes in those things.
Islam has over a billion followers and just as we here all differ in opinion so do we. There are some Muslims who believe in flying donkeys while others laugh at it. There are some Muslims who believe that a monster that has one leg in the East and one leg in West, spits fire out its mouth and have people in its belly will come one day and then there are those who clearly see that was a metaphor for trains and airplanes.
Islam has over a billion followers and just as we here all differ in opinion so do we. There are some Muslims who believe in flying donkeys while others laugh at it. There are some Muslims who believe that a monster that has one leg in the East and one leg in West, spits fire out its mouth and have people in its belly will come one day and then there are those who clearly see that was a metaphor for trains and airplanes.
Yeah that's what some Shia's do because Prophet Muhammad used to do or it's written in the Qur'an that one should beat him/herself, right? 
And let's not even mention that Shia's main allegiance lays with the caliph Hazrat Ali, and let's not even mention the most interesting part of that - He had nothing to do with the creation of the sect :excited:
And let's not even mention that Shia's main allegiance lays with the caliph Hazrat Ali, and let's not even mention the most interesting part of that - He had nothing to do with the creation of the sect :excited: