Immigration (1 Viewer)

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by vitoria_Ally ] ++
I would add one more thing: many of immigrants dont want to fit to local customs, they are like: hey it's our culture to you must accept it.
When actually they should do that, cause they are "guests" in other country.

If all those would be fixed, by some miracle, cause I cant see any other way, people wouldnt complain about immigrants.

I think they're different issues though. The Italians for example aren't forcing everyone to become a Catholic, nor are they asking non-Catholics to bow down and kiss the crucifix symbols on the walls. To be honest, I don't see the big deal in having them there. I mean if I went to a Muslim country and they had Quranic texts written on the walls etc, I'd feel like a complete idiot complaining about them. If nobody's shoving them down my throat or making me memorise them, it doesn't really affect me.

You're right, immigrants are guests. Now consider this situation: Imagine someone comes over to your house. They are a guest, and should be treated like a guest, right? You bring them into your home and give them coffee and a cracker, and everything is fine. Then you go up to your room, and they notice a Juventus flag on the wall and they're insulted by this, since they're a die-hard Roma supporter and they refuse to have such a disgusting symbol taint their delicate eyes, and demand that you remove any such symbols immediately.

Okay, maybe the story dragged on too long, but my point is that guests shouldn't act like they're above the law because they're (we're) guests. If you go to someone's house, etiquette dictates that if anything, the guest should adapt to the customs of the house that they're visiting. Nobody's asking all immigrants to Australia to wear stubby shorts and drink beer, they just expect mutual respect of each other's cultures

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by vitoria_Ally ] ++
Oh right, I didnt notice that part "but even as an immigrant", sorry

btw: do you feel attacked by me or what, they you explain yourself so much?
I didnt intend to attack you, I didnt notice that "but even as an immigrant" part, so I was wondering, why you're putting yourself outside of immigrants group using "they, those people" words.

Oh my apologies for not putting in any smileys there

I didn't feel attacked by you or anything, it's just that I didn't feel like spilling my guts in the first post, since I knew there'd be a certain amount of discussion on the issue. I personally have a fair bit to say about this issue, since I'm an immigrant, but also very 'Australian', and the issues that people have with immigrants in England are often shared here.

That, and I have a habit of writing long-winded replies when I could make it much simpler. Get used to it

 

[vitoria_Ally]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

I think they're different issues though. The Italians for example aren't forcing everyone to become a Catholic, nor are they asking non-Catholics to bow down and kiss the crucifix symbols on the walls. To be honest, I don't see the big deal in having them there. I mean if I went to a Muslim country and they had Quranic texts written on the walls etc, I'd feel like a complete idiot complaining about them. If nobody's shoving them down my throat or making me memorise them, it doesn't really affect me.

That's you, me and other open and not biased people.
But the problem is that immigrants often complain and demand to do sth, what is against the customs of the country they arrived.
And it also make people so annoyed.

You're right, immigrants are guests. Now consider this situation: Imagine someone comes over to your house. They are a guest, and should be treated like a guest, right? You bring them into your home and give them coffee and a cracker, and everything is fine. Then you go up to your room, and they notice a Juventus flag on the wall and they're insulted by this, since they're a die-hard Roma supporter and they refuse to have such a disgusting symbol taint their delicate eyes, and demand that you remove any such symbols immediately.

Okay, maybe the story dragged on too long, but my point is that guests shouldn't act like they're above the law because they're (we're) guests. If you go to someone's house, etiquette dictates that if anything, the guest should adapt to the customs of the house that they're visiting. Nobody's asking all immigrants to Australia to wear stubby shorts and drink beer, they just expect mutual respect of each other's cultures

Yes to all you said in the part in bold

 

[vitoria_Ally]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

Oh my apologies for not putting in any smileys there

I didn't feel attacked by you or anything, it's just that I didn't feel like spilling my guts in the first post, since I knew there'd be a certain amount of discussion on the issue. I personally have a fair bit to say about this issue, since I'm an immigrant, but also very 'Australian', and the issues that people have with immigrants in England are often shared here.

That, and I have a habit of writing long-winded replies when I could make it much simpler. Get used to it

No worry, I'm already used to your loooooooong-winded replies

 

[Slagathor]

What bothers me is that Dutch autochtones will focus on the negative aspects of immigration. A group of Muslims for example demanded their religion was mentioned in the Dutch Constitution because a fairly large minority in the nation is Muslim.

The Dutch public then immediately pointed their fingers: "Those Muslims..."

Yet when most Muslims in this nation are fine with the situation as it is now, an opinion poll recently showed. Its this overgeneralisation that's the source of all problems around immigration.

Why is it that everyone's willing to accept that there are criminals when natives commit crimes yet when foreigners do it, it immediately becomes an issue of 'we should kick them all out.'? I don't get that.

 

[Vicky]

of course there is always a group of immigrants from somewhere that wants too much. spanish - speaking people that come to america don't even need to learn the language .... and they don't. and i'm not talking about the older people either, i know it's hard for them, but even teenagers at my school were stuck in ESL (english second language ) classes for 5-6 years , i was in there for only a year and a half. i guess it's kind of ignorant that they don't want to learn, but on the other hand it's not their fault they have it so easy.
btw not all immigrants are ignorant, mine and dennis's famies always drink to America giving us a better life. lol maybe it's not an ordinary way of "thanking" a country but that's the way we do it.

 

[Torkel]

[IDEOLOGICAL RANT]
Immigration is a issue that often saddens me. You see that thousands, millions of people are dying of hunger, simple diseases and poverty around the world. I feel poweless and feel that there's nothing I can do. Others often express the same opinion. Then I see people complaining about the fact immigrants are coming to their country, draining "their" countries resources. Resources that are spendt on people coming to their countries to create a better life for themselves. To help people that are trying to escape from or that have been ruined by poverty, war or religious or ethnic persecution. People that often face large troubles in the countries they migrate to due to racism, xenophobia or language barriers. People that often have to work for minimum wage, doing the job "real" citizens don't want to do. People that often send half of their salary to relatives in their homecountries so that they also can get a bit of a better life. People that often are willing to work much harder than anyone, and are extremely grateful for every dime and cent they get.
Some people never get enough, and never wants to share what he has. That some kid living in a rich country would get up, use his DSL internet connection to log on to the web and complain about how the immigrants are using up his tax money. He never thinks about what his tax money might offer others, or what big of a difference his microscopic sacrifices could mean. Do people that have nice houses, education possibilites, freedom and food on the table and still complain about immigrants any clue about what's going on in the world? It makes me sick, and it makes me want to cry.
[/IDEOLOGICAL RANT]

++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++
IMO it is irratating to see all these, for example, Indians, in all parts of the world (Canada, US, England). I just hate it. It's like, what are you doing here, its not for you. They just come and drain out the resources.

What about when the US headhunts top-educated Indians to come and work for them? Indians that are needed in India to support and build up the economy and pass their knowledge on to others. I would imagine many Indians are irritated because of that.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
On the other hand, we have people who have left their countries for one reason or another, and I know that a lot of them just buy houses in the same neighbourhood, sit around on their porches getting fat, and let their children form gangs and make entire suburbs no-go-zones for anyone not of ____ nationality. Now to be honest, the generalisations about people of certain nationalities is often very true, though naming them would bear no relevance to the topic at hand.

I very much question your statements here. Why do you think these gangs are formed, Gray? Why do you think the immigrant is sitting on his porch getting fat? Why does he buy his house in the same neighbourhood were many of the same nationality reside?

++ [ originally posted by BigIzz ] ++
I think that people are people and it makes no difference what country someone comes from, they are no better or worse then anyone else, fellow countryman or not. We all ought to be able to live where we like, free from hassle. I know many Mexicans who are here illegally in the US but work harder for less reward then any "real" American I know. Yes, some imigrants are a drian on society but then again so are many non immigrants.

That said, when you are living in a country you are entering into a contract to follow the rules of life there. If you do not like it, you are generally free to leave. I just think that at least here in the US, as many fellow Americans are just as lazy and just as willing to complain as the immigrants but it is easier to single out immigrants.

This was a quality post, BigIzz.

++ [ originally posted by vitoria_Ally ] ++
I would add one more thing: many of immigrants dont want to fit to local customs, they are like: hey it's our culture to you must accept it.
When actually they should do that, cause they are "guests" in other country.

That depends, when do you stop being a guest? When you get your green card? When you're granted political asylum? When you become a citizen? Never?

What's you view on this?

 

[IncuboRossonero]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


yes.. I agree

However, about your example, I think using the country's majority/official religion as an example of values that shouldn't be changed is questionable.

religion is a personal thing... This issue goes beyond immigrants... What would you say if the person in that example was a native Italian who converted to another religion?

The reason why i'm saying it's questionable (in other words i'm undecided) is not only because i dont know the case's details, but also because i dont know the italian laws or school system... are they similar to the USA's?

Sorry Majed. I see where your going and it makes sense in SOME areas but not this one. Its just plain ridiculous. Italy is a Catholic Nation and home of the Vatican: the home of Christianity, etc. While most Italians are Catholic there are some of Protestant and Jewish faith. However, they send their children to school and then teach their faith in freetime. They do not impose ridiculous demands on the school when 99% of the class is Catholic. Where does it end?
If the cross offends what about the Italian flag? Hey why not stop speaking Italian altogether because not everyone will understand?
Then why discriminate some religions? If the protestant has a right NOT to be in a classroom with the cross what about families practicing witchcraft? Are they not just as 'of right'??

The immigrants duty to keep their traditions among themselves is the reason there are Little Italy's and Chinatowns of the World. An area which began where the immigrants could practice their faith and customs without disturbing the host nations customs.

The hypocritical thing is that the crusaders that demand these rights are from nations which will not even recognize the right of the Western Woman but then demand that their host nation reverse 500 years of history to accomodate their individual right.

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++
[IDEOLOGICAL RANT]
Immigration is a issue that often saddens me. You see that thousands, millions of people are dying of hunger, simple diseases and poverty around the world. I feel poweless and feel that there's nothing I can do. Others often express the same opinion. Then I see people complaining about the fact immigrants are coming to their country, draining "their" countries resources. Resources that are spendt on people coming to their countries to create a better life for themselves. To help people that are trying to escape from or that have been ruined by poverty, war or religious or ethnic persecution. People that often face large troubles in the countries they migrate to due to racism, xenophobia or language barriers. People that often have to work for minimum wage, doing the job "real" citizens don't want to do. People that often send half of their salary to relatives in their homecountries so that they also can get a bit of a better life. People that often are willing to work much harder than anyone, and are extremely grateful for every dime and cent they get.
Some people never get enough, and never wants to share what he has. That some kid living in a rich country would get up, use his DSL internet connection to log on to the web and complain about how the immigrants are using up his tax money. He never thinks about what his tax money might offer others, or what big of a difference his microscopic sacrifices could mean. Do people that have nice houses, education possibilites, freedom and food on the table and still complain about immigrants any clue about what's going on in the world? It makes me sick, and it makes me want to cry.
[/IDEOLOGICAL RANT]

Nice post. But not realistic at all atleast not from UK perspective.

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
The hypocritical thing is that the crusaders that demand these rights are from nations which will not even recognize the right of the Western Woman but then demand that their host nation reverse 500 years of history to accomodate their individual right.

Exactly it.

The school thing is rediculous. Where does it end.

But whats annoying is these people have a choice of where they want to go. Im not sure about what other nations offer but its well known that the UK is the best package, but as soon as they set foot on the ground they want more and they want changes, if they arent happy with what is offered why no go somewhere else. There needs to be a limit on what is offered to immigrants. Because most immigrants here are sitting around doing nothing and some are evening calling public meetings with terrorist messages against british leaders. I apologise for not being accomodating.

And Stuart yes i do feel i have a right to complain about, and i do realise what my sacrifices can help them. But my sacrifices could also help british familys, british single parents, the eldery who have no where to live etc who are more hard up than most immigrants. The government could also help our own students and maybe they will fill these doctor jobs, instead of leaving students with £16000 debt when they graduate.

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++
What about when the US headhunts top-educated Indians to come and work for them? Indians that are needed in India to support and build up the economy and pass their knowledge on to others. I would imagine many Indians are irritated because of that.

A little off topic but I felt like commenting on this one. Torks, I don't think Indian engineers are headhunted all that much, it's pretty much obvious that if you're a brilliant professional and your ambitions are doing something significant, you will get a much better shot at it in the US than India. I mean the resources for research, wages, institutional networks etc. India produce the best engineers on the planet [from what I hear] and it's no wonder the capitalist US is the place to be. Many of the biggest IT companies were founded by Indian engineers (ok I look like an ass since I can't name exactly which ones but I know it to be true, I think Xerox is one).

Aaah, too lazy to comment on the general situation, you've pretty much said what I would say. One thing I will mention is that the one thing politicians/activists fear above all is the formation of ghettos. The incentive for an immigrant to get integrated (which is what it's all about) is that he/she can't function in a country without knowing the language, the culture, the law etc. If the person is placed in a ghetto, chances are the learning process will be slowed down a looooot. This is why asylum seekers in Norway get tossed up north into these little societes that have only seen non-caucasian people on tv before and you get all the prejudice and crap come to fore. It's no ideal situation but immigrants have to learn to function in a new country in some way and this is the cold shower method (both for the immigrants and the natives).

 

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
Something that bothers me quite alot. So im posting here to hear your views/other nations views on the issue

In the Uk assylum seekers come to this country because the UK offers them better than anywere else in the world. They get here easily without problems. Which i dont have much of a problem with except i think it needs to be under control more.

But when they get here, they complain about the british government, what they are recieving for being an assylum seeker, racial indifference, lack of support etc. The government consider improving their conditions, and they demand it. When infact its already better than anywhere, and what right do they really have to demand changes to british rule and demand more of a government that isnt theres?

I dont have a problem with people coming to the country. I only have a problem with there new demands which take government money, tax payers money from other things like health care and education, british citizens lose out so we can house and accomodate for them.

Yes you might say the Uk being a wealthy country has a dutie to help these not-as fortunate people. I agree inpart, but i think if you wanna come here you have to expect a degree of difference and have to be willing to work like the rest of us. Or else dont come at all.

Some Assylum seekers do generally come here for a better life and a chance to work and earn. But most just come here to sit around on there ass doing nothing and take money for doing it.

What do you think?

I dissagree, most people that do immigrte to the UK/USA/country of your choice will work twice as hard and twice as much just to prove themselves and to keep their job. People have many reasons to move to other countries, war, racism, poverty, etc, an 90% of them are happy and grateful to the country and government they're in. Take USA for example, immigrants with a US citizenship know more about the way the USA works, about its history than 90% of real Americans and most of them will be better citizens just because they know how much better they have it, and when you have it good you'll do everything you can to keep it that way.

++ [ originally posted by K10 ] ++
I agree with you.

Don't leave your country to enter another to drain someone else' resources.

If you have nothing to offer in the country you want to enter, stay at ur own country.

IMO it is irratating to see all these, for example, Indians, in all parts of the world (Canada, US, England). I just hate it. It's like, what are you doing here, its not for you. They just come and drain out the resources.

Do you think the Native Americans were happy when the English, Frence etc came and took over the land, or that the Mayas or Inkas or Aztecs were happy with the Spanish burning their villages and stealing your gold? What I'm traying to say is that neither the country nor resaurces are yours, they were stolen and used just as you are complaining that they are now. They dont belong to just one country, everyone should have a right to them. When we're already speaking about using other nations resources, why dont we talk about collonialism, or its new form, globalisation?

You say "what are you donig here, it's not for you", but why isnt it. Is it for you? Do you have a right to it just because you were born there? A lot of people complain about foreigners stealing their jobs and leaving them unemployed. Well, instead of complaining YOU get off YOUR fat arses and offer to do the same job for the same amount of money! If they can do a job for 10$ an hour, dou you have to ask for 20? Thats capitalism for you.

++ [ originally posted by BigIzz ] ++
I think that people are people and it makes no difference what country someone comes from, they are no better or worse then anyone else, fellow countryman or not. We all ought to be able to live where we like, free from hassle. I know many Mexicans who are here illegally in the US but work harder for less reward then any "real" American I know. Yes, some imigrants are a drian on society but then again so are many non immigrants.

That said, when you are living in a country you are entering into a contract to follow the rules of life there. If you do not like it, you are generally free to leave. I just think that at least here in the US, as many fellow Americans are just as lazy and just as willing to complain as the immigrants but it is easier to single out immigrants.

I agree mate, completely. "Real" citizens will commit as much crime, consume as much drugs, etc, but apparantly they have a "right" to, because of their birthplace.

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++

The situation in Italy escalated when a religious individual from another nation (which I will not mention) sued an elementary school because there was a Catholic symbol (cross) in the classroom and he demanded they take it down since his son should not be subjected to that. The judge rejected the demand. Rightfully so. Italy is a Catholic Nation...if you are going to live off the wealth and reap the benefits it provides you will HAVE to learn to accept its values and more importantly RESPECT them and not hide behind this FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS VEIL crying foul when your own nation will not even respect basic human rights of others from different religions. That situation had me sick to my stomach.

It is a bit extreme, but IMO religion should be separated from public life, schools, government etc.

++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++
[IDEOLOGICAL RANT]
Immigration is a issue that often saddens me. You see that thousands, millions of people are dying of hunger, simple diseases and poverty around the world. I feel poweless and feel that there's nothing I can do. Others often express the same opinion. Then I see people complaining about the fact immigrants are coming to their country, draining "their" countries resources. Resources that are spendt on people coming to their countries to create a better life for themselves. To help people that are trying to escape from or that have been ruined by poverty, war or religious or ethnic persecution. People that often face large troubles in the countries they migrate to due to racism, xenophobia or language barriers. People that often have to work for minimum wage, doing the job "real" citizens don't want to do. People that often send half of their salary to relatives in their homecountries so that they also can get a bit of a better life. People that often are willing to work much harder than anyone, and are extremely grateful for every dime and cent they get.
Some people never get enough, and never wants to share what he has. That some kid living in a rich country would get up, use his DSL internet connection to log on to the web and complain about how the immigrants are using up his tax money. He never thinks about what his tax money might offer others, or what big of a difference his microscopic sacrifices could mean. Do people that have nice houses, education possibilites, freedom and food on the table and still complain about immigrants any clue about what's going on in the world? It makes me sick, and it makes me want to cry.
[/IDEOLOGICAL RANT]


What about when the US headhunts top-educated Indians to come and work for them? Indians that are needed in India to support and build up the economy and pass their knowledge on to others. I would imagine many Indians are irritated because of that.

I very much question your statements here. Why do you think these gangs are formed, Gray? Why do you think the immigrant is sitting on his porch getting fat? Why does he buy his house in the same neighbourhood were many of the same nationality reside?

This was a quality post, BigIzz.

Exactly Torkel, I'm glad to see we're in agreement

++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++

That depends, when do you stop being a guest? When you get your green card? When you're granted political asylum? When you become a citizen? Never?

What's you view on this?

You never do, and thats one of the problems and one of the main reasons why kids will form gangs, etc. You could be there for your whole life but people will never treat you like you're equal. Graham, remember when you mentioned the situation when you were driving with your friends and some Aussie guy said something in the lines of "Bloody Asians"? That is exactly the point, you might have been born there but you're not one of them and you never will be. Kids feel they dont belong anywhere and therefore create gangs with kids that are in a similar situation or of similar origin, just to belong somewhere.

I quite like the way it's done in Sweden. I remember a few years back, when a bus accident in Germany happened, the bus was full of Bosnians living in Sweden that were going to Bosnia to visit their families. The Swedish newspapers didnt say "20 Bosnians living in Sweden died...", they said "20 Swedes of Bosnian origin died..." Big difference.

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++


Exactly it.

The school thing is rediculous. Where does it end.

But whats annoying is these people have a choice of where they want to go. Im not sure about what other nations offer but its well known that the UK is the best package, but as soon as they set foot on the ground they want more and they want changes, if they arent happy with what is offered why no go somewhere else. There needs to be a limit on what is offered to immigrants. Because most immigrants here are sitting around doing nothing and some are evening calling public meetings with terrorist messages against british leaders. I apologise for not being accomodating.

And Stuart yes i do feel i have a right to complain about, and i do realise what my sacrifices can help them. But my sacrifices could also help british familys, british single parents, the eldery who have no where to live etc who are more hard up than most immigrants. The government could also help our own students and maybe they will fill these doctor jobs, instead of leaving students with £16000 debt when they graduate.

Not only are you full of prejudice towards immigrants, but are also arrogant. What exactly makes the UK the best package?

If you were looking realistically, the best packages would be Sweden, Norway or Canada, which are the three countries with the highest standard of living in the world. As an to Sweden, immigrant myself, I can tell you that it is the best package. Not only is it rich and open to foreigners, the people are also very liberal and open minded, probably because of the all the cultures living there, and that mix creates a special kind of culture, one where everyone can learn from eachother.


[/liberal, left wing rant over]

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++
Not only are you full of prejudice towards immigrants, but are also arrogant. What exactly makes the UK the best package?

If you were looking realistically, the best packages would be Sweden, Norway or Canada, which are the three countries with the highest standard of living in the world. As an to Sweden, immigrant myself, I can tell you that it is the best package. Not only is it rich and open to foreigners, the people are also very liberal and open minded, probably because of the all the cultures living there, and that mix creates a special kind of culture, one where everyone can learn from eachother.

Im not full of prejudice thanks. Ive stated that some immigrants arent a problem and are generally happy to work and earn their way. I didnt say immigrants are wrong to come and shouldnt be allowed or something. Read everything i said before you bag on me.

And I was talking about finacial package.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++


Sorry Majed. I see where your going and it makes sense in SOME areas but not this one. Its just plain ridiculous. Italy is a Catholic Nation and home of the Vatican: the home of Christianity, etc. While most Italians are Catholic there are some of Protestant and Jewish faith. However, they send their children to school and then teach their faith in freetime. They do not impose ridiculous demands on the school when 99% of the class is Catholic. Where does it end?
If the cross offends what about the Italian flag? Hey why not stop speaking Italian altogether because not everyone will understand?
Then why discriminate some religions? If the protestant has a right NOT to be in a classroom with the cross what about families practicing witchcraft? Are they not just as 'of right'??

yeah... I reached that conclusion a couple posts later (#13, #15, and #17).

I mistakenly assumed Italy was similar to the US.

 

[Tom]

My views are going further and further towards the far right of the political spectrum on this issue, makes me mad just thinking about it.

 

[K10]

Do you think the Native Americans were happy when the English, Frence etc came and took over the land, or that the Mayas or Inkas or Aztecs were happy with the Spanish burning their villages and stealing your gold? What I'm traying to say is that neither the country nor resaurces are yours, they were stolen and used just as you are complaining that they are now. They dont belong to just one country, everyone should have a right to them. When we're already speaking about using other nations resources, why dont we talk about collonialism, or its new form, globalisation?

If you put it that way, different scenario.

As I said in the first place, If YOU HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER, don't go into other peoples country.

In other words, if you are just going there to live off their money and not contribute (which I am sure alot of ppl do, maybe I am wrong) stay in your country and let the people who deserve to benefit, benefit.

When I was in Vancouver some years ago, no, sorry, Calgary, I was amazed at how many Seeks settled their. There were a great number of Mosques/Temples. I always wondered how the locals accpeted them. I somehow think they hate it.

 

[Zlatan]

Yeah, I agree, but I dont think that most people come to sit on their arses, I believe that more than 90% of immigrants are willing to work hard to have a better life.


Anyways, fok me, I cant believe how many spelling/grammar misstakes I made in that post

 

[SilvLightning]

++ [ originally posted by Vicky ] ++
of course there is always a group of immigrants from somewhere that wants too much. spanish - speaking people that come to america don't even need to learn the language .... and they don't. and i'm not talking about the older people either, i know it's hard for them, but even teenagers at my school were stuck in ESL (english second language ) classes for 5-6 years , i was in there for only a year and a half. i guess it's kind of ignorant that they don't want to learn, but on the other hand it's not their fault they have it so easy.
btw not all immigrants are ignorant, mine and dennis's famies always drink to America giving us a better life. lol maybe it's not an ordinary way of "thanking" a country but that's the way we do it.

oooh that is so true about the teens stuck in ESL!! Believe me I live in a place where there are a lot of people coming in and I know many of them have years here and are still in ESL. Being an inmigrant myself, I learned it like you, in like a year I was out of ESL.

 

[vitoria_Ally]

You've got your points people in what you said, intertesting posts :thumb:

But since I'm a lazy bum, I cant reply to everything, I would spend hours writing

Just a few questions or issues.

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
What bothers me is that Dutch autochtones will focus on the negative aspects of immigration. A group of Muslims for example demanded their religion was mentioned in the Dutch Constitution because a fairly large minority in the nation is Muslim.

The Dutch public then immediately pointed their fingers: "Those Muslims..."

Yet when most Muslims in this nation are fine with the situation as it is now, an opinion poll recently showed. Its this overgeneralisation that's the source of all problems around immigration.

Why is it that everyone 's willing to accept that there are criminals when natives commit crimes yet when foreigners do it, it immediately becomes an issue of 'we should kick them all out.'? I don't get that.

Wow, dont go so far. Everyone? Not at all.

 

[vitoria_Ally]

++ [ originally posted by Torkel ] ++
[IDEOLOGICAL RANT]
Immigration is a issue that often saddens me. You see that thousands, millions of people are dying of hunger, simple diseases and poverty around the world. I feel poweless and feel that there's nothing I can do. Others often express the same opinion. Then I see people complaining about the fact immigrants are coming to their country, draining "their" countries resources. Resources that are spendt on people coming to their countries to create a better life for themselves. To help people that are trying to escape from or that have been ruined by poverty, war or religious or ethnic persecution. People that often face large troubles in the countries they migrate to due to racism, xenophobia or language barriers. People that often have to work for minimum wage, doing the job "real" citizens don't want to do. People that often send half of their salary to relatives in their homecountries so that they also can get a bit of a better life. People that often are willing to work much harder than anyone, and are extremely grateful for every dime and cent they get.
Some people never get enough, and never wants to share what he has. That some kid living in a rich country would get up, use his DSL internet connection to log on to the web and complain about how the immigrants are using up his tax money. He never thinks about what his tax money might offer others, or what big of a difference his microscopic sacrifices could mean. Do people that have nice houses, education possibilites, freedom and food on the table and still complain about immigrants any clue about what's going on in the world? It makes me sick, and it makes me want to cry.
[/IDEOLOGICAL RANT]

Nice ideological rant Torkel, I like it

As we say here: your point of view depends on a place you sit in.

You live in a country with one of highest standarts of life in the world, and as far as I know, with strickt immigracy (sp) politic, so I wonder, how much sacrifices would you stand (and just out of curiousity, if you dont mind me asking: what sacrifices did you have till now, to help immigrants?) if Norway open their borderies for everyone and you have to give all social rights/welfare to everyone.

I can understand both sides in this discussion, I will give you example of my country.
We have gazillions emmigrants all over the world, people emmigrated from here for last 200 years, cause of political and social issues. And they still do that, cause they cant get any job in this country, even the worst. We have 20% unemployment, mostly among graduates (often with MA diploma) and people after 40 (50 years of communism, bad social, work, economical law: it's sth what you cannot fix immidiately). They dont see any future here. They take the worst jobs in another countries, but they have any job, here: they have no job at all.

But from the other side: we also have immigrants in Poland.
They are threat cause millions people here live in poverty too, and this is not matter of better standard of life, but the matter of surviving, no: better job, but even the worst job to survive!

And the most funny thing is, that Poles in Poland are not against immigrants as much as the others, cause we do see their problems, cause we have the same.

Me personally: sometimes when I hear that someone arrived here looking for better life, then I wonder: so what life they had in their own country.

That depends, when do you stop being a guest? When you get your green card? When you're granted political asylum? When you become a citizen? Never?

What's you view on this?

Interesting question: I've been thinking what to say, when I set up my mind, I will tell you, cause right now I have too much thoughts about it.
You made me think hard