We lost our prestige yesterday. It's a shame to see these clowns playing and a coach with no ideas at all. The best defence in europe , the defence that scared everybody is now being a joke.
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Il disastro di Torino (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter JCK
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i see alot of people here complaining about the old guard and how we should get rid of them.... but the biggest disappointments in yesterday's game cost approx 50MM combined. To me the biggest reason was the change in tactics in the 2nd half. At the break we were even. why make that defensive sub so early? that was as clear as saying we are satisfied with a draw....come attack us and we will defend....and lo and behold....7 min later we were one goal down.....fuck i'm not surprised we really haven't heard comments from our captain who must be pissed at gettin subbed at the half....i agree we needed some more steel in midfield but that could have been achieved by subbing in Pulsen for Melo who was absolutely shite. You guys are quick to write off our captain but again he will prove you all wrong. Once Juve are winning everyone's happy and it's Forza Del Piero! Look back at the ADP thead.....we couldn't wait for his return but when Juve is losing it's down with the old guard...Ale is washed up blah blah....Again look back at the ADP thread.....there some of us claimed to be loyal ADP supporters......but I guess that's only if we win......just remember the guy hasn't been allowed to play a full 90 as yet and in yesterday's game we were even before he was subbed off......
What a night. We sure weren't good enough to go through. Out of our whole eight points we gained six from Maccabi even for which we were too lucky.
I feel really bad for our players. I love them (except for a few) and I honestly believe that they could easily excel in any other average or world class team. They're suffering from playing in our club.
I feel really sorry for Ciro for I really loved him, I still do and I'll hold him in high esteem forever. This is not his fault. Had we had Capello or Lippi, we would still have been eliminated (if not now, in the next round for sure). I only hope he resigns for I don't want his image to get more damaged among our fans.
I really feel bad for Secco and co. I don't hate them. They prepared us a very good team considering our financial problems. I remember that everyone used to say that no one should have cursed the staff even if Diego and Melo turned to be flops. We didn't lavish on them. We needed them and we brought them. We added Grosso who was supposed to be a huge improvement over Molinaro and honestly, even though we're still suffering from the place he's playing at, he's spared us the Molinaroian headaches. We indeed prepared a decent team which might have not been able to go far in the CL but still was decent enough not to get humiliated in the group stage.
I think we finally figured what is wrong with our team. We need to destroy the whole thing in our team, to rebuild it brick by brick. It's not late. We all had a disasterous night but it could be a blessing in disguise for us in the long-term only if our board take it. We could have got a draw to qualify, to get a team of Chelsea/ManU/Barcelona's calibre in the next round and then to go out like the last season. Since we were going to win a spot for the CL next season, we wouldn't be going to make drastic changes. We might have added a quality RB, a decent CB and a valuable striker and that would be about it. But Diego too was a quality AM and Melo was/is a starter for arguably the best national team in the world yet they couldn't fulfill even half of the expectations. New players won't help as long as we stick to the old tactics. Something is obviously wrong with the mentality of our team. Something is wrong with our footballing culture. We're desperately in an urgent need for a structural change. We don't need to bring new players. I think we'd all agree that our players are far better than Bordeaux's and I don't think any of us would be willing to switch our squad with Bayern's. Our problem is not the players but the outmoded mentality and tactics under which our players have to play.
Our objective this season now, is only to secure a spot for the next season CL. We can achieve it with the current squad and manager I'm confident, but let's turn it to a proper opportunity for trying and embedding the new tactics and ideas in the team. Bring in Hiddink or anyone else who's realized that Catenaccio doesn't work anymore. Concentrate on injecting modern football into the team. Our players are smart enough to pick it up very soon. This way we'll have a team which can compete for the CL in a few years from now.
I feel really bad for our players. I love them (except for a few) and I honestly believe that they could easily excel in any other average or world class team. They're suffering from playing in our club.
I feel really sorry for Ciro for I really loved him, I still do and I'll hold him in high esteem forever. This is not his fault. Had we had Capello or Lippi, we would still have been eliminated (if not now, in the next round for sure). I only hope he resigns for I don't want his image to get more damaged among our fans.
I really feel bad for Secco and co. I don't hate them. They prepared us a very good team considering our financial problems. I remember that everyone used to say that no one should have cursed the staff even if Diego and Melo turned to be flops. We didn't lavish on them. We needed them and we brought them. We added Grosso who was supposed to be a huge improvement over Molinaro and honestly, even though we're still suffering from the place he's playing at, he's spared us the Molinaroian headaches. We indeed prepared a decent team which might have not been able to go far in the CL but still was decent enough not to get humiliated in the group stage.
I think we finally figured what is wrong with our team. We need to destroy the whole thing in our team, to rebuild it brick by brick. It's not late. We all had a disasterous night but it could be a blessing in disguise for us in the long-term only if our board take it. We could have got a draw to qualify, to get a team of Chelsea/ManU/Barcelona's calibre in the next round and then to go out like the last season. Since we were going to win a spot for the CL next season, we wouldn't be going to make drastic changes. We might have added a quality RB, a decent CB and a valuable striker and that would be about it. But Diego too was a quality AM and Melo was/is a starter for arguably the best national team in the world yet they couldn't fulfill even half of the expectations. New players won't help as long as we stick to the old tactics. Something is obviously wrong with the mentality of our team. Something is wrong with our footballing culture. We're desperately in an urgent need for a structural change. We don't need to bring new players. I think we'd all agree that our players are far better than Bordeaux's and I don't think any of us would be willing to switch our squad with Bayern's. Our problem is not the players but the outmoded mentality and tactics under which our players have to play.
Our objective this season now, is only to secure a spot for the next season CL. We can achieve it with the current squad and manager I'm confident, but let's turn it to a proper opportunity for trying and embedding the new tactics and ideas in the team. Bring in Hiddink or anyone else who's realized that Catenaccio doesn't work anymore. Concentrate on injecting modern football into the team. Our players are smart enough to pick it up very soon. This way we'll have a team which can compete for the CL in a few years from now.
Off course the old guard is on its way out. But they are not to blame. Our board might be new and inexperienced but they are not to blame. I think the problem is, and has in retrospect been Ciro all along.
Yesterday we were simply outcoached by an experieced and confidenct manager, even though Bayern have had their share of problems this season as well. They knew our weaknesses and capitalized fully on them. Speed, positional problems in the midfield and finally they did not stop to defend their lead. The knew the best chance was to keep attacking.
I think it is harsh to judge DP on 1 half where we were overrun. What was he to do when midfielders cant pass the ball. Diego is not creating as much as he is just running with the ball. One counter tactics from Ciro should have been to take the pace out of the game and started passing the ball from side to side.
Subbing Poulsen for DP is also catastrophical. He basically just said let them come. Defending that low in the field for 45 minutes is just suicide. In addition he should have considered the fact that we could concede and thus needed more attackers.
In my humble opinion he should have subbed the worst player of the 1. half - Melo - for Poulsen and kept somebody on the field who can hold the ball. I'd even say Melo for Tiago would have been alright. He can pass, and he has shown some understanding with diego in the beginning og the season.
We have seen several times that Diego does not fare well on the left. Why should he be moved out there?
Furthermore is puzzling to see, once one of the best defenders in the world, uncapable of getting set pieces and defensive organisation right.
With regards to the board. I might agree that Melo may have been overvalued on the basis of one great season. However, we have seen glimpses of this. I guess Prandelli just used him better. But I think their performance should be viewed in the light of what else should they have done. With our financial resources available, they achieved a lot of what the squad needed - even though, and off course the board also knows this, that Cannavaro is just temporary. We would not have been better off without him and did not have the money to purchase any other player. The gist of what I am saying with the board. They Put together at team good enough to reach 1/8-1/4 maybe even the semis. I have no doubt of this. We just do not have the guy to get it out of them.
We wanted a Guardiola. We needed/wanted a cheap option. Everbody knew it was a gamble. Hell, I was pretty satisfied it, as I thought team spirit would go a long way. Well, lets face it. When you gamble you sometimes loose. Unfortunately we did just that.
When we were the best in the world. We had Trappatoni, Lippi and Capello. Ciro is not one of them. Not even close. We dont have the five best players in the world as Guardiola have, so we need a world class coach. Ironically a high fee coach would long have been a good investment assuming we would then have gotten through.
The team also has other problems. But lets deal with the biggest issue first. Lets get a quality, tough and experienced manager. Someone even Buffon would be afraid of. Sad part is. Other than Guus, there arent really any out there, so i guess we havent seen the last to Ciro.
Yesterday we were simply outcoached by an experieced and confidenct manager, even though Bayern have had their share of problems this season as well. They knew our weaknesses and capitalized fully on them. Speed, positional problems in the midfield and finally they did not stop to defend their lead. The knew the best chance was to keep attacking.
I think it is harsh to judge DP on 1 half where we were overrun. What was he to do when midfielders cant pass the ball. Diego is not creating as much as he is just running with the ball. One counter tactics from Ciro should have been to take the pace out of the game and started passing the ball from side to side.
Subbing Poulsen for DP is also catastrophical. He basically just said let them come. Defending that low in the field for 45 minutes is just suicide. In addition he should have considered the fact that we could concede and thus needed more attackers.
In my humble opinion he should have subbed the worst player of the 1. half - Melo - for Poulsen and kept somebody on the field who can hold the ball. I'd even say Melo for Tiago would have been alright. He can pass, and he has shown some understanding with diego in the beginning og the season.
We have seen several times that Diego does not fare well on the left. Why should he be moved out there?
Furthermore is puzzling to see, once one of the best defenders in the world, uncapable of getting set pieces and defensive organisation right.
With regards to the board. I might agree that Melo may have been overvalued on the basis of one great season. However, we have seen glimpses of this. I guess Prandelli just used him better. But I think their performance should be viewed in the light of what else should they have done. With our financial resources available, they achieved a lot of what the squad needed - even though, and off course the board also knows this, that Cannavaro is just temporary. We would not have been better off without him and did not have the money to purchase any other player. The gist of what I am saying with the board. They Put together at team good enough to reach 1/8-1/4 maybe even the semis. I have no doubt of this. We just do not have the guy to get it out of them.
We wanted a Guardiola. We needed/wanted a cheap option. Everbody knew it was a gamble. Hell, I was pretty satisfied it, as I thought team spirit would go a long way. Well, lets face it. When you gamble you sometimes loose. Unfortunately we did just that.
When we were the best in the world. We had Trappatoni, Lippi and Capello. Ciro is not one of them. Not even close. We dont have the five best players in the world as Guardiola have, so we need a world class coach. Ironically a high fee coach would long have been a good investment assuming we would then have gotten through.
The team also has other problems. But lets deal with the biggest issue first. Lets get a quality, tough and experienced manager. Someone even Buffon would be afraid of. Sad part is. Other than Guus, there arent really any out there, so i guess we havent seen the last to Ciro.
More or less what I've been saying, with the only difference being that I think that we do need new players to replace the oldest ones, at least in the starting XI.
The older ones won't be able to change their mentality and footballing culture. They've been having them for years and years and they can't change it now.
You want to inject modern football into the team. But you must know how much speed and off the ball movement are important in this modern football. As great as they were, as huge their football knowledge and technique are, Camo and Del Piero will not be able to do it. Old can not be modern.
The older ones won't be able to change their mentality and footballing culture. They've been having them for years and years and they can't change it now.
You want to inject modern football into the team. But you must know how much speed and off the ball movement are important in this modern football. As great as they were, as huge their football knowledge and technique are, Camo and Del Piero will not be able to do it. Old can not be modern.
Well, I've let it all sink in for a while now, so I hope I'm able to give a fair and objective (as objective as possible for a Juve fan anyway) take on the game.
Ever since we crashed & burned away to Bordeaux I had a bad feeling about this game. I watched that game with some friends and my 1st words after the game were: "we won't make it to the 2nd round."
As it turns out Bayern were indeed too strong for us & they deserved the victory 100%. But 1-4? I certainly did not see that coming. Absolutely disgusting, we embarassed ourselves in front of the whole of Europe.
There used to be a time when we never lost with more than a 1 goal difference. It's not even that long ago, and just look at us now.
Ciro's starting formation proved to be a mistake, but mostly because certain players did not manage to do their duties, so I'm not putting all the blame on him.
I haven't read any opinions so far, but I can imagine that his half time sub has received a lot of criticism. Not from me though. We needed Poulsen in the middle, so one of DP or Diego had to go.
Thanks to some Trez magic, for a while we actually looked like we might have (undeservedly) pulled it off, but it wasn't to be I guess.
I can only hope that we improve a lot by the time we're playing in the European League. I know it's only a small trophy & that we're not gaining a lot financially if we go far in that cup, but we need to restore some of our pride. Asap.
Buffon 5,5 - Difficult to rate him. Didn't make a lot of saves & conceded 4. He should & could have saved the 4th one, but what's the difference?
Caceres 6 - One of the few bright spots out there. But he did start our downfall by giving away a cheap penalty. He is way too reckless and still has a lot to learn.
Legrottaglie 5,5 - Some nice tackles and interceptions at times. But Bayern kept on attacking the entire 90 min, so some mistakes were nothing less than inevitable. Does need to concentrate a lot harder on set pieces though.
Cannavaro 5,5 - Had the same difficulties as Legro. Tried to make the most of it, with mixed results.
Grosso 5 - Very difficult evening for him. Should have added more in attack & could have done a bit better at the back.
Camoranesi 4,5 - Was completely outmuscled for most of the game. Failed in his defensive tasks way too often.
Melo 3,5 - He was either a bad joke or a walking disaster. I remain undecided for now. I'm probably wrong, but I'm getting the feeling he just doesn't give a dams: The amount of times he just walks back to defend instead of running is just jaw dropping.
Marchisio 6 - Difficult night, but he coped with it remarkably well. Smart player.
Diego 4 - Pretty awful at certain times. His worst game for us so far. Does he have problems dealing with the pressure?
Del Piero 5 - Generally pretty poor.
Trezeguet 6,5 - He would have gotten at least an 8 if he buried that other chance. For the simple reason that he at least does what he is supposed to do. I don't think any sane person still has doubts about him.
Poulsen 5 - Pretty poor overall. Subbing him on made sense, but he didn't deliver enough.
Amauri 5 - Another poor outing, but he's not really to blame this time.
Giovinco -
Ever since we crashed & burned away to Bordeaux I had a bad feeling about this game. I watched that game with some friends and my 1st words after the game were: "we won't make it to the 2nd round."
As it turns out Bayern were indeed too strong for us & they deserved the victory 100%. But 1-4? I certainly did not see that coming. Absolutely disgusting, we embarassed ourselves in front of the whole of Europe.
There used to be a time when we never lost with more than a 1 goal difference. It's not even that long ago, and just look at us now.
Ciro's starting formation proved to be a mistake, but mostly because certain players did not manage to do their duties, so I'm not putting all the blame on him.
I haven't read any opinions so far, but I can imagine that his half time sub has received a lot of criticism. Not from me though. We needed Poulsen in the middle, so one of DP or Diego had to go.
Thanks to some Trez magic, for a while we actually looked like we might have (undeservedly) pulled it off, but it wasn't to be I guess.
I can only hope that we improve a lot by the time we're playing in the European League. I know it's only a small trophy & that we're not gaining a lot financially if we go far in that cup, but we need to restore some of our pride. Asap.
Buffon 5,5 - Difficult to rate him. Didn't make a lot of saves & conceded 4. He should & could have saved the 4th one, but what's the difference?
Caceres 6 - One of the few bright spots out there. But he did start our downfall by giving away a cheap penalty. He is way too reckless and still has a lot to learn.
Legrottaglie 5,5 - Some nice tackles and interceptions at times. But Bayern kept on attacking the entire 90 min, so some mistakes were nothing less than inevitable. Does need to concentrate a lot harder on set pieces though.
Cannavaro 5,5 - Had the same difficulties as Legro. Tried to make the most of it, with mixed results.
Grosso 5 - Very difficult evening for him. Should have added more in attack & could have done a bit better at the back.
Camoranesi 4,5 - Was completely outmuscled for most of the game. Failed in his defensive tasks way too often.
Melo 3,5 - He was either a bad joke or a walking disaster. I remain undecided for now. I'm probably wrong, but I'm getting the feeling he just doesn't give a dams: The amount of times he just walks back to defend instead of running is just jaw dropping.
Marchisio 6 - Difficult night, but he coped with it remarkably well. Smart player.
Diego 4 - Pretty awful at certain times. His worst game for us so far. Does he have problems dealing with the pressure?
Del Piero 5 - Generally pretty poor.
Trezeguet 6,5 - He would have gotten at least an 8 if he buried that other chance. For the simple reason that he at least does what he is supposed to do. I don't think any sane person still has doubts about him.
Poulsen 5 - Pretty poor overall. Subbing him on made sense, but he didn't deliver enough.
Amauri 5 - Another poor outing, but he's not really to blame this time.
Giovinco -
Hoori! Pleasure to see you 
Hoori!
I totally agree with you on every point.
I totally agree with you on every point.
If Amauri, Giovinco and Diego had played up to their standards, we wouldn't have waited for Ale to come back from injury and we wouldn't have wanted Camo in the first eleven. If we play under the right tactics, the players I mentioned would do well and it will automatically push the old guard to the bench. I wouldn't write off our old players like you do for I believe that we still can get a lot from them, not for what they offer as starters but for their invaluable experiences. Pick Giggs in ManU. He's not fit enough to start every game but he can add a lot whenever he's given a chance. With new ideas, we'll get the best out of our younger players and we would be able to count on the older ones whenever it's needed.
from me.
I partly agree with Hoori here. Its the defense where we need new faces. I am not asking DP to retire here or smth.
But even bigger problem are the tactics and team work. Thats why i want Ciro out. At least the new manager can then maybe guide as back on track to build for next season. Work out, which players have still what it takes, and which not. I dont know how should we take the Uefa cup league for example. Go all out, or maybe give younger player chance? Cause well, look what is going on, we need more young blood.
I am worried about some of these transfers we made this summer. Some players, like DP can still be useful as a rotation player. But Canna, Grosso? We need new wc defenders (and younger!), Canna is not gona get younger. If we keep him then we are almost forced to play him, because of the prestige he has. I mean since when is Italian NT captain being a bench warmer for club.
Its another Maldini in the making if we keep Canna after 2010, and i am saying it in a bad way.
But even bigger problem are the tactics and team work. Thats why i want Ciro out. At least the new manager can then maybe guide as back on track to build for next season. Work out, which players have still what it takes, and which not. I dont know how should we take the Uefa cup league for example. Go all out, or maybe give younger player chance? Cause well, look what is going on, we need more young blood.
I am worried about some of these transfers we made this summer. Some players, like DP can still be useful as a rotation player. But Canna, Grosso? We need new wc defenders (and younger!), Canna is not gona get younger. If we keep him then we are almost forced to play him, because of the prestige he has. I mean since when is Italian NT captain being a bench warmer for club.
Its another Maldini in the making if we keep Canna after 2010, and i am saying it in a bad way.
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