Il Capitano Alessandro Del Piero (154 Viewers)

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
I certainly agree with basing the team around "younger" players. Much like yourself apparently, I'm just not sure whether Diego is the one to base the team around.
I'm somewhat biased against basing the team around Diego because I basically don't like trequartista based systems.

Diego is good, I just dislike the position, because I think a team becomes extremely reliant on that player, but he is playing a position that it is quite easy for a decent team keep him out of the game.

I prefer my creativity to come from wider areas.
 

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Nicholas

MIRKO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jan 30, 2008
38,737
I'm somewhat biased against basing the team around Diego because I basically don't like trequartista based systems.

Diego is good, I just dislike the position, because I think a team becomes extremely reliant on that player, but he is playing a position that it is quite easy for a decent team keep him out of the game.

I prefer my creativity to come from wider areas.
In a 4-2-3-1 you would have two wingers overlapping Diego anyway in Giovinco and Camo(This season).
 

Salvo

J
Moderator
Dec 17, 2007
62,843
I'm somewhat biased against basing the team around Diego because I basically don't like trequartista based systems.

Diego is good, I just dislike the position, because I think a team becomes extremely reliant on that player, but he is playing a position that it is quite easy for a decent team keep him out of the game.

I prefer my creativity to come from wider areas.
i agree with the trequartista teams, as i said we will rely on one player to much and then when he is out we are screwed.

a 4-2-3-1 is the best option IMO, you have wingers and a playmaker.
 

Lo-Pan

Disciple of Gonzo
Feb 11, 2009
2,788
they both have that heart and passion in the field...if you watched especially the last match you could see what i mean.

now for the bolded part, give me a break...i didn't said they are exact the same...what the heck, are you trying to get some attention or what? No one will be exactly like neddy, or zidane and etc..but the passion of playing for Juve, the passion that Neddy had can be seen in Marchisio.
Truly, you seem deranged to me. So far removed from my sense of reality. Which is NOT a plea for attention, and I am readily able, and willing, to suggest that my reality is a little warped. But that part I put into bold, seems like unbridled Heart over Mind. Because whilst I have grabbed ONLY the highlights of the last match, and seen Chimenti's failings, as well as a more adventurous, better passing Samp, I HAVE watched many games this season. Most of which ruined my sleeping pattern for a day or three after due to the time difference, and also, because they gave me nothing but pain. And in these matches, I have seen NOTHING of Nedved's ferocious determination, in Marchisio. And it is meaningless to me, to combat such a comment, with a 'everyone on this forum thinks he is the best, so...so do I! and that makes you wrong!!! so there' bullshit routine...I am asking you, nothing more, than is the statement you made, based on your Head, or Heart????
 

Buck Fuddy

Lara Chedraoui fanboy
May 22, 2009
10,889
I'm somewhat biased against basing the team around Diego because I basically don't like trequartista based systems.
You and me both, it seems.

I did use to like trequartista based systems though, 10 years ago or so. But football has evolved & only very few (top) teams still use those tactics. And for good reason, since they're extremely predictable & easy to shut down.
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
Franchise, eh?

I guess where you stand on this will depend on how sentimental you are and how ruthless you are willing to be.

While I'm sure they would reject them, I would be tempted to offer guys like Trezeguet and Camoranesi pay-as-you-play deals, because I do believe they have something to offer. They still have something to offer, but are injured far to much to be relied on very much.

It is certainly time that the system that suits Diego best (probably 4-2-3-1) was chosen, without consideration as to whether it suits the old players, most notably Del Piero.
My sentimentailty lies in the team as a whole, and the club's history and its future, not for individual players.

Individual players who tug at my heart strings are very few and far between, and we are talking about some of those who reside in the pantheon of their respective sports, such as Joe Montana, Steve Young, Magic Johnson, Patrick roy, and first and foremost for me above all others, Roberto Baggio.

But the common denominator amongst all of them was that they were either traded,sold, or retired well before they should have, and I, as a fan of those repective teams, moved on. I never let my belief that the name on the front of the jersey far outweighs the importance of the name on the back, waver for one moment.

I am not a very sentimental guy when it comes to sports figures, I will admit that. The last time a retirement caused me emotional pain was Roby's in 2004. I am probably the ultimate Baggio fanboy on this forum now that some people such as Mate left here so long ago.

But that doesn't mean that I am not appreciative of what some of these players were able to accomplish. On the contrary. They brought the team results, and they gave me some great memories of what used to be. the problem is that there are people who think that "what used to be" can be again, with the same group of players, and I just don't see it.

I always think of a quote by the great Branch Rickey when situations come up like this. I will save everyone the task of going on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

Branch Rickey was a General Manager for the Brooklyn dodgers baseball team in the 1940's, and his greatest acheivement was that he was able to break the color barrier in baseball and professional sports in the US by taking a huge gamble on a player by the name of Jackie Robinson. And he was also responsible for drafting the first hispanic superstar in baseball, the immortal Roberto Clemente. But another thing that Rickey was known for was an astute judge of talent, and always being able to make a great trade.

One of his most famous quotes was

"Trade them a year too early rather than a year too late".

If you think about it, this was something that Juventus should have done two years ago.
 

Lo-Pan

Disciple of Gonzo
Feb 11, 2009
2,788
:lol:, and almost all of the guys around here said that marchisio is our best player this season.. it's a matter of taste and vision imo but a "shadow of potential" ?...what about melo and momo then?
Melo, had a stellar season last year, with a team managed by a man, who the majority of italian supporters, view as a decent manager. He is also, a lynchpin in one of a handful of teams who can legitimately lay claim to the 'best in the world' title. Momo, has proven in the past, in spain, in england, and for us, in snippets, that he can be near to world class, in some aspects of the game, and literally shut down the WHOLE of an opponent's midfield.

They have shown more, in the past, than they have shown at Juve in the present. So the exact opposite is true of them, than what I am saying of Marchisio.
 

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
In a 4-2-3-1 you would have two wingers overlapping Diego anyway in Giovinco and Camo(This season).
i agree with the trequartista teams, as i said we will rely on one player to much and then when he is out we are screwed.

a 4-2-3-1 is the best option IMO, you have wingers and a playmaker.
4-2-3-1 is certainly my preferred system if you have to play with a trequartista.

My concern about that system is that you are still very reliant on the one player, but the striker instead of the trequartista.

It's a fine system if you have Torres or Villa leading the line, but you do really need a top class forward as the vast majority of the chances will fall to him.
 

blondu

Grazie Ale
Nov 9, 2006
27,408
Truly, you seem deranged to me. So far removed from my sense of reality. Which is NOT a plea for attention, and I am readily able, and willing, to suggest that my reality is a little warped. But that part I put into bold, seems like unbridled Heart over Mind. Because whilst I have grabbed ONLY the highlights of the last match, and seen Chimenti's failings, as well as a more adventurous, better passing Samp, I HAVE watched many games this season. Most of which ruined my sleeping pattern for a day or three after due to the time difference, and also, because they gave me nothing but pain. And in these matches, I have seen NOTHING of Nedved's ferocious determination, in Marchisio. And it is meaningless to me, to combat such a comment, with a 'everyone on this forum thinks he is the best, so...so do I! and that makes you wrong!!! so there' bullshit routine...I am asking you, nothing more, than is the statement you made, based on your Head, or Heart????
it's both of them...more head than heart..i miss nedved but i don't want to pick someone from the 1st 11 to sub him so that i can have feelings for him, or sth like that. But i'll tell you this, from what i saw in this season, marchisio didn't looked like a young skinny, maybe a future star, player. He looked like a warrior for me. About the "everyone on the forum thinks..." comment, i wanted to show you the general opinion, not only my own...because if 10 guys tell you that you're drunk you go to sleep no?...if 10 people say that he was the best, so maybe i am right about marchisio, and you're not.
 

blondu

Grazie Ale
Nov 9, 2006
27,408
Melo, had a stellar season last year, with a team managed by a man, who the majority of italian supporters, view as a decent manager. He is also, a lynchpin in one of a handful of teams who can legitimately lay claim to the 'best in the world' title. Momo, has proven in the past, in spain, in england, and for us, in snippets, that he can be near to world class, in some aspects of the game, and literally shut down the WHOLE of an opponent's midfield.

They have shown more, in the past, than they have shown at Juve in the present. So the exact opposite is true of them, than what I am saying of Marchisio.
they both chocked this year, but i'm not blaming them...the whole squad was bad, the manager too, the board too. But i can't see nothing in today's melo that i saw in firenze's melo. About sissoko, he was injured a lot + ramandan..etc, i would sell him because of his inconsistency. In a match is Mom, 3 matches he's the worst of the pitch getting booked for nothing and doing meaningless foults. Marrone is on the bench, and he is hungry. Marchisio is a juve product...if we won't have faith in him, and don't start him, giving him years of games and trust so that he can gain experience, spending 20+ mils on players from out of our garden ain't really the sollution.
 

Salvo

J
Moderator
Dec 17, 2007
62,843
4-2-3-1 is certainly my preferred system if you have to play with a trequartista.

My concern about that system is that you are still very reliant on the one player, but the striker instead of the trequartista.

It's a fine system if you have Torres or Villa leading the line, but you do really need a top class forward as the vast majority of the chances will fall to him.
well i see what your saying but in the end we need to hope the mids can contribute with goals, and i believe with quality crossing amauri can be pretty reliable and with money dzeko i guess.
 

Red

-------
Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
My sentimentailty lies in the team as a whole, and the club's history and its future, not for individual players.

Individual players who tug at my heart strings are very few and far between, and we are talking about some of those who reside in the pantheon of their respective sports, such as Joe Montana, Steve Young, Magic Johnson, Patrick roy, and first and foremost for me above all others, Roberto Baggio.

But the common denominator amongst all of them was that they were either traded,sold, or retired well before they should have, and I, as a fan of those repective teams, moved on. I never let my belief that the name on the front of the jersey far outweighs the importance of the name on the back, waver for one moment.

I am not a very sentimental guy when it comes to sports figures, I will admit that. The last time a retirement caused me emotional pain was Roby's in 2004. I am probably the ultimate Baggio fanboy on this forum now that some people such as Mate left here so long ago.

But that doesn't mean that I am not appreciative of what some of these players were able to accomplish. On the contrary. They brought the team results, and they gave me some great memories of what used to be. the problem is that there are people who think that "what used to be" can be again, with the same group of players, and I just don't see it.

I always think of a quote by the great Branch Rickey when situations come up like this. I will save everyone the task of going on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

Branch Rickey was a General Manager for the Brooklyn dodgers baseball team in the 1940's, and his greatest acheivement was that he was able to break the color barrier in baseball and professional sports in the US by taking a huge gamble on a player by the name of Jackie Robinson. And he was also responsible for drafting the first hispanic superstar in baseball, the immortal Roberto Clemente. But another thing that Rickey was known for was an astute judge of talent, and always being able to make a great trade.

One of his most famous quotes was

"Trade them a year too early rather than a year too late".

If you think about it, this was something that Juventus should have done two years ago.

I don't disagree with you.

I'm totally ruthless when it comes to Aberdeen and the players who should/shouldn't be kept (I'm currently advocating the clear out of half our squad in the summer), because my allegiance is totally with the club and not with the players, which is not to say I don't love some of the players.

However, when it comes to Juve, I'm rather more detached from the club. What allegiance I have is split rather more evenly between the players and the club.
 

Red

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Moderator
Nov 26, 2006
47,024
well i see what your saying but in the end we need to hope the mids can contribute with goals, and i believe with quality crossing amauri can be pretty reliable and with money dzeko i guess.
Midfielders who score goals is the key to the 4-2-3-1 system as far as I'm concerned.

In additition to a striker who will scored ~20 goals a season, you probably need two or three midfielders who will reach double figures.
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
Those players are paying themselves back with what Juventus are making from their names. How do you explain Juventus is still the highest income club in italy? One of the reasons is your heavily contracted players. These players are winning you games.

Some suggested selling Buffon to Man City for 50 million euros. We bought Diego and Melo for 50 million. I'd sell both and keep Buffon.

How do you think we were getting through in the past couple of years? It was these players who were keeping us decent. This year the whole squad has been plagued by injuries and naturally, being human, they suffered too. Which showed by us loosing a lot.

You want to fix our problems then start from the top. Get a proper management who are wiling to make from players are world class club again. Get a medical staff that can evaluate the players properly. Get a specialist that can decide if the training ground we are working on is good or not.

If you think Buffon is so way passed it how do you explain great clubs like Man U, Barcelona, ..etc are willing trash in whatever we ask for in order to sign him.

If Del Piero is old and grumpy, how do you explain him running around till the last moment of the game even in an off form day?

If Trezeguet is just another "regular" player, how do you explain our poor goal scoring capability during his winter injury period?

In our team we have some world class players that any team in the world would want, we have some average players, and some below average players (at best). The job of the management is, get rid of the below average, try to improve the average/above average players if they are willing to, and keep our world class players and form a proper team around them to learn from them.

Look at the points I posted in the tactics and formation thread. This is our real tactical problems. And this is why we are performing badly this season. The player played a role in it ofcourse, but tactically speaking I believe we do have a major problem.
Go back and read my posts.

#1) I didn't say Buffon was "Past it". If anything I think that now would be the time to strike while the iron is hot, and get the most money possible for him.

#2) Of all the "old Guard", Alex is the only one that I would want to keep.

#3) the fact that iaquinta, who started out with all guns blazing got hurt, didn't exactly help their cause, either.

And I do not disagree with you in the fact, as it painfully evident, that new management is needed. Yes, I was one of those who were extremely patient with the board, and were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, I am not the type that is going to keep piling onthem, when I'm pretty sure that they know that they have failed miserably.

Do you want to know what my concern is? My concern is that whomever takes over is going to follow in the same trend that has taken place since even before calciopoli, and that was to hire mercenaries in order to create a quick fix solution to the problem, and that is something that I simply do not want to see anymore.

If they are talking revolution, then make it one. Start over again. take the money and bring in youth, and I'm talkling prodigious talents, not spending 25 million euros on a 24 year old striker who cut his teeth in another league, for the benefit of that said team receiving a huge profit for all of their hard work. No, that is not what I, as a lifelong supporter of Juventus, want to see.

I would be totally fine with the notion of this team taking a step back for the next year of two if it meant taking 3 steps forward for the next 7 years.

i don't know, maybe it is becauase of where I am from, and I see this cyclical event take place over various sports landscapes, that it wouldn't bother me nearly as much as I'm sure it would bother other people.

You talk tactics, and that's fine. I really haven't had a chance to pore over what you had said, but I will at some point, but now we are at a stage where there is a new coach, with new ideas, and the results are barely better than what they were before.

Do you attribute that to tactics, or the fact that juve doesn't have the required young legs to keep up with even mid table teams in the EPL? And if the answer is the latter, then what is the reason for that?

Here's your reason right here.

The lack of balls by this board, or any other board of a major Italian club, to take real chances on their youth products. The only reason why Inter can even hope to compete is not because of player development, such as what Man U has done with Rooney or Barca has done with Messi. It is because they have so much more money to spend than any other team in Italy that they can literally throw euros at the problem and fix it.

And that's great for them. That works in Italy, but it doesn't work anymore anywhere outside of the peninsula ,where teams can spend as much as Inter on the transfer market, AND have phoenomenal youth systems and faith in those players to develop.

Someone on this forum once said that "Stars don't make Juventus, Juventus make stars"

When was the last time that happened?
 

Salvo

J
Moderator
Dec 17, 2007
62,843
Midfielders who score goals is the key to the 4-2-3-1 system as far as I'm concerned.

In additition to a striker who will scored ~20 goals a season, you probably need two or three midfielders who will reach double figures.
yea and i guess we cant rely on giovinco or diego to score for us..
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
Midfielders who score goals is the key to the 4-2-3-1 system as far as I'm concerned.

In additition to a striker who will scored ~20 goals a season, you probably need two or three midfielders who will reach double figures.
To me, a 4-2-3-1 system works as long as there is a deep lying playmaker and a destroyer in front of the defense.

You can't have two destroyers back there. It ruins the whole chain of fluidity, and causes the 3 upfront to have to fall back in much deeper positions to get any sort of attack started.
 

Lo-Pan

Disciple of Gonzo
Feb 11, 2009
2,788
Blondu...I have high hopes for Marchisio. HOPEs...nothing more, and I DO think he has the potential to become a modern Tardelli for us. Not nedved. But he has shown, only fleeting glimpses of quite beautiful perfection. Enough to give me hope, but not enough for me to suggest he is anywhere near the finished product that I hope he becomes. Also...in a season such as this one, his fleeting flirtations with showing a large dose of natural talent, seem even more special than if we had been playing well as a team. But my point was not about his potential, not about this team, it was asking you if you had seen ANY of Nedved's world renowned spirit in Marchisio, for I have not. And I would be surprised to read that you could find 10 people on here who would agree with you on the comparison.

And as for your adage, if 10 people this, blah blah blah...the context is more important than the numbers. As is normally the case. A flimsy response, full of gusto, and heart, but no brain...
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
Blondu, I like you a lot, buddy, but i have to agree with the poet on this one.

I don't see a whole lot of Nedved in Marchisio, to be honest.

Maybe in time, but not right now.
 

blondu

Grazie Ale
Nov 9, 2006
27,408
so other and few words i'm brainless cuz i told you that i think that marchisio kinda resembles neddy with his spirit and passion. For me, Marchisio was a warrior sunday night, you should've seen him. But i'll take that from you man :) and your opinion too sergio..it's a matter of taste and vision.
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,789
so other and few words i'm brainless cuz i told you that i think that marchisio kinda resembles neddy with his spirit and passion. For me, Marchisio was a warrior sunday night, you should've seen him. But i'll take that from you man :) and your opinion too sergio..it's a matter of taste and vision.
The difference with Nedved is that the guy never had an "off switch", whether it was against Inter or Arezzo, he had the same mentality game in, game out.

But if it makes you feel any better, I'll come over there and hug you
 

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