how many teams in europe are greater than juventus? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter HelterSkelter
- Start date
No worries, Ajax realised that too. They teamed up with Johan Cruyff over the summer and reorganised the entire youth academy. They also introduced the teachings of Wiel Coerver as major cornerstone to the learning process of young players: which I very strongly support. In my opinion they are vastly overdue in introducing Coerver, the man is a genius.
Great analysis, +rep.
Great analysis, +rep.
Barcelona has not a long history of glory and success? Please....
Then how do you explain 18 Liga titles, 24 Copa del Rey, 2 Champion Leagues, 4 Cup winners' cups, 2 European super cups, 11 Supercopa de Espana, 2 Copa de la Liga? and 2 Copa Latina and 3 Inter-cities Fairs cup for what they're worth?
Barça had it's moments of doubts, but no club could stay on top for a whole century.
When you look at the names of former players and managers, you can feel nothing but respect. I mean the likes of Hagi, Larsson, Popescu, Figo, Couto, Overmars, Koeman, Cruyff, De Boer, Kubala, Kocsis, Litmanen, Lineker, Laudrup, Prosinecki, Stoichkov, Ronaldo, Romario, Rivaldo, Maradona, Zubizareta, Nadal, Enrique, Guardiola, Michels, Venables, Robson, Van Gaal,... didn't sign for Barça by coincidence, did they?
That I can agree
Then how do you explain 18 Liga titles, 24 Copa del Rey, 2 Champion Leagues, 4 Cup winners' cups, 2 European super cups, 11 Supercopa de Espana, 2 Copa de la Liga? and 2 Copa Latina and 3 Inter-cities Fairs cup for what they're worth?
Barça had it's moments of doubts, but no club could stay on top for a whole century.
When you look at the names of former players and managers, you can feel nothing but respect. I mean the likes of Hagi, Larsson, Popescu, Figo, Couto, Overmars, Koeman, Cruyff, De Boer, Kubala, Kocsis, Litmanen, Lineker, Laudrup, Prosinecki, Stoichkov, Ronaldo, Romario, Rivaldo, Maradona, Zubizareta, Nadal, Enrique, Guardiola, Michels, Venables, Robson, Van Gaal,... didn't sign for Barça by coincidence, did they?
That I can agree
according to nummber of trophies in the G14 website
i found some strange numbers
also regarding the big number of trophies of celtic and rangers
i concluded that the order is as follows
1- real madrid
2- rangers
3- barcelona
4-celtic
5-ajax
6- juve
the range of ajax is nearly close to 60 trophy while we have 51 trophy (53 before 2005 ,06 titles taken)
meanwhile ac & liver are around 38 and 32 trophy respectivly
the funniest thing that in that search i found inter have a total of 26 trophy in all their history
which is less than our single record of the scudetto (27) hahaha
my opinion away from inter is that there is a big defect in the tim cup for us
for example barca of only 17 league won around 24 domestic cup ( i dont get it now) but its around 24
while we have only 9 cup titles
i think even if its an italian record it should have been around 25 title not nine
this would have given us a nice push towards the top 4
also our very bad luck in the finals of the cl against dourtmond &real in late 90's would have given us a nice euorpean prestige
any way i think only real madrird is bigger than juve
i dont see celtic or rangers or barca or ajax have our prestige in euorope
i found some strange numbers
also regarding the big number of trophies of celtic and rangers
i concluded that the order is as follows
1- real madrid
2- rangers
3- barcelona
4-celtic
5-ajax
6- juve
the range of ajax is nearly close to 60 trophy while we have 51 trophy (53 before 2005 ,06 titles taken)
meanwhile ac & liver are around 38 and 32 trophy respectivly
the funniest thing that in that search i found inter have a total of 26 trophy in all their history
which is less than our single record of the scudetto (27) hahaha
my opinion away from inter is that there is a big defect in the tim cup for us
for example barca of only 17 league won around 24 domestic cup ( i dont get it now) but its around 24
while we have only 9 cup titles
i think even if its an italian record it should have been around 25 title not nine
this would have given us a nice push towards the top 4
also our very bad luck in the finals of the cl against dourtmond &real in late 90's would have given us a nice euorpean prestige
any way i think only real madrird is bigger than juve
i dont see celtic or rangers or barca or ajax have our prestige in euorope
Erik-with-a-k said:
I was worried tho 
you cant go that far today only by your academies,the other CL teams can easily find and buy similar or better players/material,
talents today are spotted much earlier than ever and come in greater numbers from every corner of the earth, the African invasion canceled many effects a european based team with developed academies had,
the other teams buy promising players before they reach world cup status
and if they dont reach there they wont be able to bring world cup status results against the opposition in CL
to a team that exclusively uses talents only,Ajax's system is destined to fail today, they have to wait many years to raise a new generation, be lucky enough to raise more than 5 players together, sell them for a real good price when the moment come, invest that profit when the next generation appears on other proven quality players and create a mixture of talent and experiance able to dominate Europe for a while, win titles and then sell them as prooven champions with a champions price tag, but Ajax now seems to desperate to sell as soon as possible, they invest only in other talents, they cant have a star team at any period of time, they cant gother wealth from the harvested generations, they had to keep their academies running at all costs, Valencia was smarter
but it involves more risks, Manure and Arsenal choose a more... balanced situation.
Adam, I am impressed by the style and logic of your argument. I congratulate you for the ardour of actually carrying out research and throwing some systematic analysis into effect. Top quality post.
However I do feel that the multiplier you used to calculate the ordering does not fully take into historic perspective that Erik has mentioned in his past post. I just find it hard to to believe that French league has been more competitive than the Dutch when the latter's success far exceeds that of the other. Also Italian teams have in general been far more competitive with balance success throughout its teams than England and Spain whose success have to a large degree depended on statistical outliers Real Madrid and Liverpool.
Take these teams out of equations, and add in win/loss into actual ordering, then I suspect Italia would enjoy clear advantage over La Liga and EPL. I feel the general superiority of Italian league in its history justifies its Milan's higher standing than say Bayern or Liverpool.
However I do feel that the multiplier you used to calculate the ordering does not fully take into historic perspective that Erik has mentioned in his past post. I just find it hard to to believe that French league has been more competitive than the Dutch when the latter's success far exceeds that of the other. Also Italian teams have in general been far more competitive with balance success throughout its teams than England and Spain whose success have to a large degree depended on statistical outliers Real Madrid and Liverpool.
Take these teams out of equations, and add in win/loss into actual ordering, then I suspect Italia would enjoy clear advantage over La Liga and EPL. I feel the general superiority of Italian league in its history justifies its Milan's higher standing than say Bayern or Liverpool.
Thats not what i meant, i m not comparing their resources or results, i ve mentioned those, because they are the most caracteristic in their development strategy; of using academies, scouts, invest in young talents, keep them , sell them at the right moment etc
and i was reffering to Ajax not as the historic major/important team it used to be,
neither the average/competitive CL team it is today,
but as a model to other teams, Ajax is an all time ex of the succes,
a team can have using its academies talents,
i agree that Ajax's participation in a "middle league" is a major drawback in the team's efforts to compete with other major clubs, but i believe a different aproach/perspective would have other results, probably better IMO,
PSV for ex managed to grow faster than Ajax in the same league the last years using a slightly different strategy (and i hate itumpkin: )
I wanted to say that the advantages the academies can offer to a major club are limited and many ppl in this forum overrate them, i know, you know better!
and i was reffering to Ajax not as the historic major/important team it used to be,
neither the average/competitive CL team it is today,
but as a model to other teams, Ajax is an all time ex of the succes,
a team can have using its academies talents,
i agree that Ajax's participation in a "middle league" is a major drawback in the team's efforts to compete with other major clubs, but i believe a different aproach/perspective would have other results, probably better IMO,
PSV for ex managed to grow faster than Ajax in the same league the last years using a slightly different strategy
(and i hate itumpkin: )I wanted to say that the advantages the academies can offer to a major club are limited and many ppl in this forum overrate them, i know, you know better!
Of course benefits from a youth academy are limited. That simple fact is proven by how Jaap Stam's arrival has helped Ajax gain enormous quality compared to last season when they lacked experienced players.
I never said a youth academy would be enough of a foundation. There has to be more. Ajax relied ONLY on their youth academy for the past few years and sucked as a result.
All I said was that Ajax's situation couldn't be compared to those of clubs in major leagues. And that has nothing to do with stronger competition: it has everything to do with TV money.
I never said a youth academy would be enough of a foundation. There has to be more. Ajax relied ONLY on their youth academy for the past few years and sucked as a result.
All I said was that Ajax's situation couldn't be compared to those of clubs in major leagues. And that has nothing to do with stronger competition: it has everything to do with TV money.
As good as many post here have been, the fundamental problem arises of just what constitutes Greater than Juventus? We have seen static formulas, which give a result yes, but how reliable are they: for instance, Real dominated the first three years of the competition, yet in each of those they only had to play 4 games (they probably would have won if they had to play more, but...), Juventus only played their first game after it had been running for 6 years, and for a few of those their was no Italian representative.
Also League structures have developed and fluctuated over the course of the past century or so leaving any formula redundent, unless it takes this into consideration.
Fan base is impossible to judge, being temporal and reliant on the commercial might of teams in the developing nations of football.
All this goes to show the complexity in the question, where it is impossible to give a definitive judgement on which is the greater in Serie A or B.
Suffice to say that jUventus are the most popular (not greatest mind) team in Italy, and I like to think in the whole wide world.
Also League structures have developed and fluctuated over the course of the past century or so leaving any formula redundent, unless it takes this into consideration.
Fan base is impossible to judge, being temporal and reliant on the commercial might of teams in the developing nations of football.
All this goes to show the complexity in the question, where it is impossible to give a definitive judgement on which is the greater in Serie A or B.
Suffice to say that jUventus are the most popular (not greatest mind) team in Italy, and I like to think in the whole wide world.
Not many teams are better in juve, at thr moment ac and inter are poor with their form and watching man u v chelsea juve could bet them at home. the only tem gd in europe is Munich and ajax lost 2 sparta.
juventus have the best fan base in europe even tho juve or in B the fans still turn up go on juve
juventus have the best fan base in europe even tho juve or in B the fans still turn up go on juve