how many teams in europe are greater than juventus? (2 Viewers)

[bianconero]

Not many teams are better in juve, at thr moment ac and inter are poor with their form and watching man u v chelsea juve could bet them at home. the only tem gd in europe is Munich and ajax lost 2 sparta.
juventus have the best fan base in europe even tho juve or in B the fans still turn up go on juve

Say what the Dickens is that?

Could you run that past us again, please.

 

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[Slagathor]

Preferably with interpunction.

 

[Seven]

I think I get what he's saying. There aren't many Juventus teams better than our first team. For example we can beat our Primavera. Next he says that even in their heyday ("thr moment") AC and Inter were poor. When Chelsea play Man U at home, Juventus should bet on a Chelsea win to earn some needed cash. Juventus have a good fanbase and even though they have to choose between Juventus or Serie B they go to Juventus.

That's what I think he's saying .

 

[Marc]

Well if you have tunnel vision and only compare the clubs to current form you're right. That's not what the thread is about, however. When some historic perspective is thrown into the blender, it is clear Ajax are indeed a major European club.

Then again, if focus on recent achievements only, Juventus isn't very high on the list either. Do you see where I'm taking this yet?

Ok, after much research, thought & deliberation I am going to try to provide some kind of answer to this debate. Bear with me, here goes.

To define greatness is the hardest part of the arguement. Obviously every Juventino will say il bianconeri are the greatest club in the world, otherwise how could that man claim to be a Juventino, why support them if you don't hold that very belief close to your heart?

However, trying to be unbiased & objective about this, which club(s) can claim to be greater than Juventus? Firstly, who are the greatest teams from each major footballing nation? I think the definative list would read:

UK - Liverpool
Germany - Bayern
Netherlands - Ajax
Portugal - Benfica
Spain - Real Madrid
France - Marseille
Italy - Juventus

These clubs are chosen on domestic sucess, fan base & world wide support/identity.

Now, how to rank their domestic achievements? I figured the best ranking system is that used by UEFA in the Golden Boot top scorer rankings, which gives each league a multiplier, depending on strength of the league. Spain, Italy, Germany, France and England are all given a multiplier of 2, Dutch & Portuguese leagues a 1.5. So, mulitplying the number of titles won by this number gives the following results;

Real - 58
Juventus - 54
Benfica - 46.5
Ajax - 43.5
Bayern - 40
Liverpool - 36
Marseille - 16

Then I felt the need to add domestic cups, at the value of half a league title, and UEFA cup victories at the same value as a league title. Factoring in CL/European Cups was more difficult, but finally decided that it must be worth 2 league titles. At this stage I also felt the need to bring Milan into the equation, as their continental sucess far exceeds our own, as well as Manchester Utd & Barca, due to their worldwide reputations. The following points totals were thus reached;

Real Madrid - 97
Juventus - 77
Bayern - 71
Liverpool - 69
Ajax - 69
Barca - 68
Benfica - 67.5
Milan - 51
Man Utd - 51
Marsielle - 30

These rankings show that the clubs I added rank some way behind the original list, & that Marsielle are even further out & thus are discounted from the discussion. Looking at the above table I find the top 5 to be a fair reflection of the rankings in Europe in terms of size, sucess & percieved "greatness". Real Madrid ARE head & shoulders above the rest, esp when you consider that in 51 years of the European Cup, they have won approx 1 in 5. Our domestic glory, even only counted 27 titles (that nearly killed me!), added to our huge worldwide fan base, plus 2 European cup wins & 5 losing finals apperances is enough to put us above Bayern, who's league is somewhat weaker, despite 4 EC wins. Liverpool & Ajax make up the top 5, & rightly so. Fans of all 5 clubs could argue all day about the final order they should take, but clearly these ARE Europes top 5 clubs, & I feel my ranking system is fair.

The answer to the original question, how many European teams are greater than Juve, is one, Real Madrid. Hope this helps, either solving the arguement or giving more reason to continue it!

Fantastic post!

So, Ajax is among the 5 best Clubs after all, huh?:eyebrows: :faq1:

 

[Dominic]

When Chelsea play Man U at home, Juventus should bet on a Chelsea win to earn some needed cash.

Creative translation.

 

[Marc]

Creative translation.

I see you had some argue with wfm221, huh, Dominic?

The guy is so dumb that "Dumb and Dumber" are Einstein´s comparing to him.umpkin:

 

[JCK]

 

[Desmond]

Whether one attempts to rank Europe's clubs according to systematically quantified or percieved greatness, I think the end result is pretty much one and the same.

 

[Jun-hide]

As good as many post here have been, the fundamental problem arises of just what constitutes Greater than Juventus? We have seen static formulas, which give a result yes, but how reliable are they: for instance, Real dominated the first three years of the competition, yet in each of those they only had to play 4 games (they probably would have won if they had to play more, but...), Juventus only played their first game after it had been running for 6 years, and for a few of those their was no Italian representative.
Also League structures have developed and fluctuated over the course of the past century or so leaving any formula redundent, unless it takes this into consideration.
Fan base is impossible to judge, being temporal and reliant on the commercial might of teams in the developing nations of football.

All this goes to show the complexity in the question, where it is impossible to give a definitive judgement on which is the greater in Serie A or B.

Suffice to say that jUventus are the most popular (not greatest mind) team in Italy, and I like to think in the whole wide world.

Cogent point as always bianconero.

I like Adam's approach in justifying the order of clubs he enlisted, but I can carry out similar procedure and by changing the basis of how teams should be ranked it is possible to find almost any permeatation of rankings with reasonable basis. In another words, I can probably find some calculative formula that generate rankings which are in effect just a representation of my preference, and yet give some resemblence of "rationality". I am pretty sure Adam didnt carry out the exercise with such intent but actual result is, nonetheless, pretty weak.

As you have said, measuring the "fan-base" of a club is notoriously hard. There simply isnt systematic data on which to carry out "true" measurement and the most proxy measures used to provide an estimate is just downright silly. So in majority cases, most public magazine just take the financial success team enjoys as a measure of "fan base" which are poor correlation of popularity in terms of providing finer details because it essentially awards shrewd marketing skills as well. On a casual outlook Chelseki is nowhere near popular as Barca, and yet they generate more revenues than the Catalan club.

The question is hard to answer to say the least. I think the most we can do is probably cateogorize teams into different class.