baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
He definitely made errors but those errors don't explain this poor start to the season when you look at the players that are on the field. The squad could be better if he had a perfect mercato and got Draxler and didn't sell Vidal or Coman but those mistakes aren't the difference between 12th and 1st place. They're not even the difference between 1st and 6th. Not by a long shot. A better manager could surely do better with the experience and talent at Allegri's disposal.

If you think Marotta is to blame for this terrible start to the season, it follows that the players available either that lack the quality to be among the top tier of the league or that they're such an impossibly incompatible group of players that they could never be managed into a working system together - so much so that they drop 15 points in 10 games. By this same twisted logic, Marotta should take full credit for the 11/12 scudetto, not Conte for getting the most out of what was a squad more randomly put together and of much less quality than this current one. Not to mention the two abominable seasons they'd had previous. What did Conte do? He adapted, found the right formation and instilled a winning mentality into a team that on paper never should have won the title.

A good manager couldn't be so rigid in his style that if everything doesn't fall perfectly into place for him, this is the result. Good managers can adapt and get the best out of their list. Look at the squad and tell me they're worse than any other clubs in the league. If Allegri can't be within reach of 4th or 3rd place by christmas it's empirically clear that he got lucky last season, inheriting a side that didn't really need much managing. Not so different to how he inherited Zlatan's Milan. As soon as he lost his match winners everything fell apart for him. Though, in this this case, Allegri has been much much more fortunate to still have quality all over the pitch. Yet because he actually has some real managing to do now, he can't.

Like I said, he could have had a better mercato. Probably by a long way, but if you think the squad he provided Allegri shouldn't be contending for the title, ya got rocks in ya head.
You don't get lucky when you almost win a treble and beat Real Madrid along the way. This is not even about us signing Draxler or selling Coman, it is about what Allegri wanted, and neither of us know if he got what he wanted. By the looks of it, it sure as hell doesn't seem like it. That apart, while you are correct to point out that the incoming players were by no means substandard, you are not contextualising two very important factors.

A) The calibre of the outgoing ones, and I don't mean it from the point of view of their talent alone, but their personalities and what they meant to the team. None of the incoming players bring that leadership potential to replace that, forget the ability to carry the team by themselves. That is what we needed to be looking for, and not just reducing the age of the squad. B) The timing of the arrivals, we may have let go of Coman, but then suddenly Cuadrado arrives, and we need to accommodate him in the system because he is possibly the only attacking flank player we have after losing Coman. And since he was an opportunity signing he came in when? A week before the mercato closed. That is to say end of August.

When these factors are aggregated you'll find that the incoming players didn't get an entire preseason to understand the team. The coach didn't get an entire preseason to impose his ideas and tactics. And you'd imagine that would be absolutely fundamental that when you're bringing in 11-12 new faces into the squad they should've got far more time together than they were given with the coach. Cuadrado, Sandro, Lemina, Hernanes etc. Followed by an absolutely horrific preseason schedule which was lazily planned to say the least. Not sure whose in charge of that, but they are to be blamed too. At the end of it, the players that arrived in the second half of the mercato came in a manner where we just looked at affordability rather than systems.

You can fault Allegri and say he's a guy who lacks ideas but there's a demarcation that needs to be made here. I'm not saying he is above the blame. That said, putting all of the blame on him is making him a scapegoat, they did that to him at Milan, and even after he went the problems persisted, and he left after what, a title, a second and a third place finish after losing their stars? Does that make him a bad coach? I don't think so. But what I've noticed more than anything, is that this situation at Juve is different in the sense, that the team across permutations has just not spent enough time with each other, and it could be Lippi in his prime, sitting on the bench today and the issues he would face would be the same. To build a spirit, and identity and mentality, you need continuity and time and we have simply not had that. 12 new players for a coach who is known more for his tactical nous, is not playing to anybody's strengths, and that is something the management to see. Especially when that coach plays a TQ driven system, and isnt even given a reasonable solution to implement that in a season where he lost three of his most commanding personalities.

In the end, a season like this from what I have seen in my time, is rarely salvaged because the factors are more psychological than they are physical or technical. And once the season starts on a bad note it's really hard to reign in the belief. It all comes down to the preseason preparation and we have had none clearly. Sure, I can sit here and say we have been unlucky with injuries too, but the bottomline really is, top clubs have clear ideas, they move with intent and don't sit around waiting for scraps like we do season after season.

Conte had no business winning the Scudetto with the team he had, but he managed it not because he was a flexible coach with fresh ideas. in fact he was more stubborn than Allegri. He managed it because 12 new faces played to his strengths of instilling team spirit and mentality. Not every coach thrives on those conditions. Some coaches work within the framework of tactical set ups and need personnel to implement those systems, and I'm not sure our management were able to figure that out. So when Allegri goes, and Mazzarri comes, and our new objective is to qualify for the CL next term, we will be sitting here debating how inept Walter is, and also reminiscing how close we were to the likes of RvP, Ageuro, Sanchez, Falcao, Pastore, Verratti? Draxler? while touching upon Vidal being undersold, Tevez leaving for free, etc etc. Or maybe not. We might just be talking about how Pogba wanted to leave and how Marrotta's hands were tied.
 

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Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
He definitely made errors but those errors don't explain this poor start to the season when you look at the players that are on the field. The squad could be better if he had a perfect mercato and got Draxler and didn't sell Vidal or Coman but those mistakes aren't the difference between 12th and 1st place. They're not even the difference between 1st and 6th. Not by a long shot. A better manager could surely do better with the experience and talent at Allegri's disposal.

If you think Marotta is to blame for this terrible start to the season, it follows that the players available either that lack the quality to be among the top tier of the league or that they're such an impossibly incompatible group of players that they could never be managed into a working system together - so much so that they drop 15 points in 10 games. By this same twisted logic, Marotta should take full credit for the 11/12 scudetto, not Conte for getting the most out of what was a squad more randomly put together and of much less quality than this current one. Not to mention the two abominable seasons they'd had previous. What did Conte do? He adapted, found the right formation and instilled a winning mentality into a team that on paper never should have won the title.

A good manager couldn't be so rigid in his style that if everything doesn't fall perfectly into place for him, this is the result. Good managers can adapt and get the best out of their list. Look at the squad and tell me they're worse than any other clubs in the league. If Allegri can't be within reach of 4th or 3rd place by christmas it's empirically clear that he got lucky last season, inheriting a side that didn't really need much managing. Not so different to how he inherited Zlatan's Milan. As soon as he lost his match winners everything fell apart for him. Though, in this this case, Allegri has been much much more fortunate to still have quality all over the pitch. Yet because he actually has some real managing to do now, he can't.

Like I said, he could have had a better mercato. Probably by a long way, but if you think the squad he provided Allegri shouldn't be contending for the title, ya got rocks in ya head.
Great post :tup:
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,792
He should go before Allegri imo. The players he brought in cannot really be put into a system that works. We don't have the players for a 4-3-3, or a 4-3-1-2, both of which Allegri seems to prefer. Very poor planning. I mean, his whole reasoning for the Hernanes deal pretty much says it all really.

It's so frustrating because he's done very well up until now too.
 

Lion

King of Tuz
Jan 24, 2007
36,185
he fucked his own hard work over 4 years by what he did last summer.

but juventus is not in the business of forgiving. he should be fired if juventus doesnt finish 2nd in the league
 

baggio

Senior Member
Jun 3, 2003
19,250
he fucked his own hard work over 4 years by what he did last summer.

but juventus is not in the business of forgiving. he should be fired if juventus doesnt finish 2nd in the league
Allegri or not, we are gonna finish outside the top 3 this season for a multitude of reasons.
 

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