Germans bad loosers!!!!!!!!! (2 Viewers)

[kurvengeflüster]

As far as I experienced the German defeat everything went smooth, at least in Leipzig. I was one of three supporters who cheered for Italy during the semi-final. An this was during a public viewing in the wc-stadium in Leipzig (at least 20.000 German fans). There were only two "insults" but hey...what kind of quota is that in relation to 20.000??
This is sport. Here in Germany we had a hype. Suddenly there were almost 80 million people interested in soccer. Some even crossed their fingers for the German squad not knowing that Neuville was one of us.
At every car people installed little flags and showed their loyality to the squad. One day after the 0:2 defeat those little flags dissapeared step by step. This wasn't a new patriotism wave here in Germany. I would call it "event-happening".
In regards to the German BILD-Zeitung..hey this is gossip press. Just ignore them, but don't condemn any kind of satire like the German ZEIT pubished two days ago.

One last thought: Just imagine Italy would have lost the game in extra time after a header of Ballack or whoever. Would Italian media act as a "fair" loser, after Italy hit the post twice? Or, conspiracy was a topic just before FIFA suspended Frings, even in our forum. Italians moaned about his "foul" in the match against Argentina. Just imagine Frings would have played and kicked out Italy with a goal. .... bad losers are around, keep your eyes open!

 

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[Seven]

Well Italo-German relations are complicated ever since Berlusconi insulted the Germans and Schröder refused to go on holiday there... I don't remember all the details of that particular affair but the offenses have been flying over the Alps both ways ever since.

Other relations are complicated. The North-South divide in Italy is largely stimulated by a Wealth-Poverty imbalance. There are similar divides in Belgium, where Flanders pays high taxes for the economically ill Walloon region. Of course the latter divide is fuelled by lingual and cultural differences. Internationally, there are usually patterns of rivalry and divides between big nations, with small nations often keeping more to themselves. Scandinavia and Lower Germania are about as a neutral as it gets in all of this. Any rivalry (if any at all) in nations such as Sweden or Holland will concern their neighbours and never stoop down to levels of insult: respect usually prevails.

England's tabloids such as The Sun are just generally anti-European. Just because they focused on Italy for a while now doesnt mean they wouldn't have done the same if it were Holland. We're cheese-headed, wooden-shoe wearing, pot-smoking idiots without morals and a sense of decency. Blahblah, we've heard it all before.

I would encourage you to take in as many different European media as you can, although that can be hard with the countless different languages they use. You'd be surprised by how positive the Dutch media are concerning the Italian national team (Andries will verify this), despite old stereotypes concerning defensive football, which is nationally frowned upon on the rare occasion an Eredivisie team uses said tactics.

The Dutch media are indeed very positive towards the Italian national team. Even more so than the Belgian (which is kind of odd considering the large number of Italian immigrants and thus Italian fans in Belgium). I even caught Hugo Borst wearing one of those Italian Kappa shirts and telling everyone Italy were going to win 9 to 1 in the final .

I'm not sure whether you can compare Flanders and the Walloon region with North and South in Italy. Whereas there certainly is the same economic difference in Belgium as there is in Italy my feeling is that there is much more mutual respect in Belgium than there is in Italy. There are of course people who would like to see Flanders as a nation, but the bitter rivalry there is in Italy is very rare here.

As for the media I guess it's not really that complicated. You have the German and English media, who can be more than offensive when it's not about themselves and you have Southern European media who could do with a little less pathos. Other than those I think most countries are quite balanced.

 

[Seven]

Kurvengeflüster, I think Italian media would have said that we lost in a cruel way because after all Italy had dominated Germany for most of the game. Then they'd have gone on complimenting the players for an otherwise good tournament. They might even have wished the Germans good luck for the final.

What I am 200% sure they would NOT have done is title something along the lines of "Hitler's stadium awaits Adolf's grandsons for the grand finale". Or warn you in the days before the game : "we'll make you choke on your Würstel, Fritz !". With a few coloured descriptions of how Germans have a stick in their ass and are as charismatic as my left foot. Or call for a boycott of Sauerkraut because some German TV station (please note : a TV station, NOT the Football Federation) released unshown footage of their previous game. Not that the call for a boycott would be necessary anyway, since I doubt many in Italy would eat Sauerkraut in the first place.

One lesson none of these Little Germaners seems to have learned though, is that the more filth you throw at us before a game, the more motivated we get to beat you. That's the only discipline where the English are World champions btw. But apparently the Germans are catching up now.

The Bild is toilet paper, but it is also your most read newspaper, so a part of its readership must at least agree with them. But what would you call Der Spiegel? I used to consider it as a respectful paper. And you tell me Die Zeit was actually doing satyre by saying that the mafia is in the final? Dammit, that was German humour flying right over my head there.

Seven, the North/South divide in Italy is very much comparable to the Flanders/Wallonia rift in Belgium. Same racism coming from the angry Northerners towards the assisted South. Same populist wackos calling for the creation of an independent state (Vlaams Belang in Belgium and Lega Nord in Italy). One glaring difference though : no one really takes the Lega Nord seriously in Italy, and rightly so. The Vlaams Belang on the other hand is a powerful, efficient and smooth-running machine, a real political party with a proper plan that has collected a third of the votes bang in your own city of residence.

My point is that it's not blatant racism towards the Walloon region. Also the Vlaams Belang does not get most of his voters because of this issue.

About Antwerpen, yes, indeed the Vlaams Belang has a third of the voters. I would also be the first to say Antwerpen is a more or less fascist city. That said I have the feeling that the recent events (which I'm sure you heard about) could mean a turn around. Also the 1/10 festival that will take place in Antwerpen and Brussel and features dEUS, Arno and others could mean something.

 

[kurvengeflüster]

Kurvengeflüster, I think Italian media would have said that we lost in a cruel way because after all Italy had dominated Germany for most of the game. Then they'd have gone on complimenting the players for an otherwise good tournament. They might even have wished the Germans good luck for the final.

well I really doubt this. do you remember the match sweden vs. denmark at euro 2004. if i am not mistaken Italian media didn't applaud the Swedish and Danish player.

What I am 200% sure they would NOT have done is title something along the lines of "Hitler's stadium awaits Adolf's grandsons for the grand finale". Or warn you in the days before the game : "we'll make you choke on your Würstel, Fritz !". With a few coloured descriptions of how Germans have a stick in their ass and are as charismatic as my left foot. Or call for a boycott of Sauerkraut because some German TV station (please note : a TV station, NOT the Football Federation) released unshown footage of their previous game. Not that the call for a boycott would be necessary anyway, since I doubt many in Italy would eat Sauerkraut in the first place.

idiots are on both side. Some magazines describe the Italian as mama boys other prime ministers denigrate a German politican with the words "go and play the capo in a concentration camp".

The Bild is toilet paper, but it is also your most read newspaper, so a part of its readership must at least agree with them. But what would you call Der Spiegel? I used to consider it as a respectful paper. And you tell me Die Zeit was actually doing satyre by saying that the mafia is in the final? Dammit, that was German humour flying right over my head there.

as BILD is not a subscription paper they have to earn their money every day. if i am not wrong they have approx. 3,5 million readers every day. during the last 8 years they lost 1 million readers. in order to get the paper into the folk there is only one way for a toilet paper. you have to set topics every day by addressing readers' emotion. the articles of Bild are simply structured. Of course people were dissapointed about the defeat as there was a massive hype here. each town had a big screen for public viewing and it was a kind of atmosphere which covered all everyday worries. and suddenly...bang...three weeks of joy are gone by being eliminated in extra time.
of course it was the result of Italian team that worked hard but for all German soccer fans this doesn't count. they are dissapointed and feel low. (just compare it with your feelings when your favorite club lost a game) so they went home in a really bad mood. so imagine you would be the executiv editorial of Bild, how would you assure that 3,5 million people by your paper on the next day. of course you serve them the feelings they had the last night. you take some stereotype, add some nice image manipulation and suddenly you resound throughout the land, and even in Italy. mission done. do you really think, people follow the advice of a gossip paper and avoid eating pizza. bullocks. people will go to the resturants and order pizza and pasta as before the kick off of wc 2006. an despite of making a fuss about the Bild's headline even an Italian paper replied with a good portion of humor. for example la republica "you don't know what you will miss out" (by avoiding pizza)

soccer is about emotion. these were media jibes before the match, so where is the point? none the players nor the federation did speak about the Italian team in a disgraceful manner.

spiegel: my personal opinion is that Spiegel and Bild have a lot in common. I don't buy it. But it is correct they decribe themselve as a respectful paper. nevertheless the editor went too far. but what's the problem here. Italian media replied and he got his mess back. and Italians - even you - say that this kind of jibes gave motivation to kick out the Germans. You did it, everything fine?

zeit: this is satire in a pure way. I see now way why moaning about that article. everyone claiming about it may haven't read it. and to avoid any misunderstanding (which is practically not possible) die Zeit published an Italian and English statement saying that this is satire, for all thos who didn't understand it.

the English statement reads: "Dear Italian and also all the "I'm political correct til deaht"-Germans - this article is making FUN of all the conspiracies and the mafia-tattle. It's written deliberately full of prejudices and show how foolish all the "facts" are! So please calm down - or don't you have a sense of humor?"

ADDED: and even an Italian answered in German on the Zeit page: "... I liked it (the article) as good as a play. ..." maybe it is correct that the word "mafia" is not so easily to handle for Italians as for Germans. but we have the same problem with everything dealing with events between 1914 and 1945 (see Berlusconi's statement above)

that's it, italy in the final. take it or leave it. int:

 

[swag]

Erik, Italo-German relations have been like this long before Berlusca's pathetic show at the EP. In a nutshell, Germans love Italians but don't respect them, whereas we respect the Germans but will never love them.

How can I not rep something so profound?

 

[Rami]

Hmm, funny how this issue is causing such controversy, where a couple of month ago the whole of Europe were pro "freedom of speech". I thought nothing is a taboo in Europe and anyone can say anything. Guess I was wrong, more like selective "freedom of speech".

 

[Slagathor]

Hmm, funny how this issue is causing such controversy, where a couple of month ago the whole of Europe were pro "freedom of speech". I thought nothing is a taboo in Europe and anyone can say anything. Guess I was wrong, more like selective "freedom of speech".

lol that's so comparing apples with pears

 

[Rami]

Enlighten me?? Whats the difference Erik?

 

[Slagathor]

Enlighten me?? Whats the difference Erik?

Allow me to take the liberty of assuming you were referring to the Danish cartoon saga.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can just insult anybody, it never has. There's also a little thing called respect and it's widely recognised throughout Europe. That doesn't mean that there are a considerable number of idiots who seem to think freedom of speech entails a license to insult and hurt. Usually, said people work in the media sector, don't ask me why. Probably get some sort of kick out of it.

Anywho, firstly there is no such thing as "Europe" when it comes to opinion, morals and values. Secondly kindly refrain from using phrases such as "the whole of Europe" when you only choose to listen to the people who happen to fit your little stereotype box of offenders. Thirdly I recall the Danish government and others apologising, which completely destroys your generalising statement.

Fourthly might I also object to a rather omniversal (as I got the impression) cry from Muslim nations, demanding apologies from governments when the offenses were made by the media. If you recognise the Western 'freedom of speech' then kindly also recognise the divides between church, state and media. I hope you don't personally shared that wish.

 

[swag]

Well, basically that freedom of speech doesn't necessarily mean there's anything illegal about a prestigious German publication calling the Italians the mafia. But doing so is not only irresponsible and demeaning, it arguably puts them closer to the camp of feral children who would defecate on themselves as their only respite from masturbation and self-induced drool.

There's nothing illegal about going to a host's dinner party and taking a dump on their dining table Cristofle. But it's classless and disrespectful.

Or, shall we say, it exhibits "poor grooming".

 

[Rami]

Allow me to take the liberty of assuming you were referring to the Danish cartoon saga.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can just insult anybody, it never has. There's also a little thing called respect and it's widely recognised throughout Europe. That doesn't mean that there are a considerable number of idiots who seem to think freedom of speech entails a license to insult and hurt. Usually, said people work in the media sector, don't ask me why. Probably get some sort of kick out of it.

Anywho, firstly there is no such thing as "Europe" when it comes to opinion, morals and values. Secondly kindly refrain from using phrases such as "the whole of Europe" when you only choose to listen to the people who happen to fit your little stereotype box of offenders. Thirdly I recall the Danish government and others apologising, which completely destroys your generalising statement.

Fourthly might I also object to a rather omniversal (as I got the impression) cry from Muslim nations, demanding apologies from governments when the offenses were made by the media. If you recognise the Western 'freedom of speech' then kindly also recognise the divides between church, state and media. I hope you don't personally shared that wish.

1-Well perhaps that was a blanket statement, but from where I was sitting it seemed to me that the majority of people in Europe saw nothing was wrong with what happened. Correct me if I am wrong.

2-same as point 1

3-The Danish government apologized after it was pressurized. (not that the pressure techniques were right in totality)

4-Muslims demanded an apology in the cartoon row from governments. While Europeans are insulting each others over a comment about a football match. People from different backgrounds have different ways to deal with stress.


But still at the end of the day, the German newspaper is no better than the Danish newspaper. Both disrespected a group of people. But in one case banners of "freedom of speech" were raised, while not with the other. Being a religous opinion or not makes no difference here, both are disrespctful.

 

[Akerman]

It's probably german workers making the pizzas anyway. So the germans will suffer in the end, not the italians.

 

[Rami]

Well, basically that freedom of speech doesn't necessarily mean there's anything illegal about a prestigious German publication calling the Italians the mafia. But doing so is not only irresponsible and demeaning, it arguably puts them closer to the camp of feral children who would defecate on themselves as their only respite from masturbation and self-induced drool.

There's nothing illegal about going to a host's dinner party and taking a dump on their dining table Cristofle. But it's classless and disrespectful.

Or, shall we say, it exhibits "poor grooming".

Nobody said it was illegal. Whether its drawing a cartoon or calling the Italians Mafioso. I was just wondering why the "freedom of speech" card was never waved in the discussions, while we all remember how it was waved every other post in a certain thread

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Kurven, apple and oranges for you too : you're comparing the idiotic statement of a political buffoon with the systematic habit of your press/players/fans to spew the usual stereotypes ahead of a game against an Italian team.

The Gazzetta before Italy-Germany : "once again we're facing the Germans, in what promises to be a dramatic clash of European titans"

Der Spiegel : "we're playing the Italians again, those parasitic mummy boys".

This comparison could apply to many an Italo-German confrontation.

You need to change your usertitle to "The Sappy Fappy."

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

It would make me find you more attractive.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

A virtual ass rape.

 

[Eddy]

Good deal IMO

 

[Slagathor]

But still at the end of the day, the German newspaper is no better than the Danish newspaper. Both disrespected a group of people.

Goes without saying

But in one case banners of "freedom of speech" were raised, while not with the other. Being a religous opinion or not makes no difference here, both are disrespctful.

That's only because these things happen so often in Europe they don't turn into international debates. I'm sure if you addressed the editor of the Zeit with this issue, he would definitely pull out the freedom of speech card.

One more thing: I highly doubt the majority of Europeans defended the freedom of speech in the cartoon row. Every time the issue came up in my social and academic circles, most people agreed respect is more important.

But it doesn't serve Al Jazeera well to give those people a lot of broadcast time in the same way it doesn't serve CNN well to show images of peaceful muslims.

 

[Rami]

Goes without saying



That's only because these things happen so often in Europe they don't turn into international debates. I'm sure if you addressed the editor of the Zeit with this issue, he would definitely pull out the freedom of speech card.

One more thing: I highly doubt the majority of Europeans defended the freedom of speech in the cartoon row. Every time the issue came up in my social and academic circles, most people agreed respect is more important.

But it doesn't serve Al Jazeera well to give those people a lot of broadcast time in the same way it doesn't serve CNN well to show images of peaceful muslims.

I don't know why you assumed that Al Jazeera was my news source. I hate that channel btw I don't have no respect to it, and lots of Saudis share my feelings.

Anyways I would take your word for it, as I am sure you are more in touch with Europe than me, but a quick look at the dedicated thread for this issue will shed some light on one of the reasons why I have such an impression.

 

[Slagathor]

I don't know why you assumed that Al Jazeera was my news source.

I didn't, I was merely stating two major news sources on either side. I have no idea what you watch

I hate that channel btw I don't have no respect to it, and lots of Saudis share my feelings.

Anyways I would take your word for it, as I am sure you are more in touch with Europe than me, but a quick look at the dedicated thread for this issue will shed some light on one of the reasons why I have such an impression.

Oh I don't doubt that thread would give you every reason to assume that. Just that the loud and so clearly present people don't necessarily represent the majority. Yet it's those people you always hear from (not just in the media)