Egypt: from 2011 demonstrations to today (21 Viewers)

[Bisco]

Natural selection you say? Was too dumd to survive huh? I salute your vileness.

huh?!?! are you for real?? what natural selection turk are we talking about here. i am telling you she refused to get out of the sit in despite being warned and knowing well enough there will be clashes and you r telling me natural selection.

 

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[Turk_Bianconero]

Your disregard for human life, ability to make joke out of people's suffering is disturbing. Even if they are your enemies.

 

[Bisco]

Your disregard for human life, ability to make joke out of people's suffering is disturbing. Even if they are your enemies.

Until you stop being an ignorant and claiming they're peaceful protestors I'm afraid I'll not show sympathy to terrorists.

 

[IrishZebra]

Until you stop being an ignorant and claiming they're peaceful protestors I'm afraid I'll not show sympathy to terrorists.

 

[Bisco]

20 bodies were found buried under the main stage in nasr city sit in. I'll try to get footage because the mb are angels and super peaceful

 

[Bisco]

23 bodies found inside rabaa mosque with visible signs of torture on them

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Until you stop being an ignorant and claiming they're peaceful protestors I'm afraid I'll not show sympathy to terrorists.

A bit honour please. Am i asking too much? You will feel ashamed when you read what you write after sometime, if there is minimum amount of honour left in you.

Even your puppet vice president could not defend the massacres.

"It has become too difficult to continue bearing responsibility for decisions I do not agree with and whose consequences I fear," ElBaradei said.

He said his conscience was troubled over the loss of life "particularly as I believe it could have been avoided".

 

[swag]

Good for ElBaradei, really. As much as the MB needs to be cleaned out, alternatives to violent means need to be the priority.

 

[Hist]

@Turk_Bianconero
This would have been an analysis that I agree with if it wasn't for its misinformed premise. The misinformed premise is namely that the Muslim Brotherhood not only haven't started the violence but also haven't reacted to it. It also uses the word coup to describe what happened with the implication that both Morsy's ouster and the crackdown we are seeing today aren't publicly supported. Wrong on both accounts.

The largest two protests in Egyptian history across all of Egypt preceded the two main events. The first demanded early presidential elections and the second protest was to license the Military to deal with the terrorist threat.

So the first thing to acknowledge here is that the ouster of Morsy was by popular support that preceded any military action and in fact demanded the military to intervene. The second thing to acknowledge here is that the military's crackdown is also by popular support that preceded the crackdown. You would (and probably rightly so) consider this a somewhat fascist act by the majority against the now minority if it weren't for the minority being the muslim brotherhood and other even more extreme Islamists. While I might argue that Islamists by definition are fascists, I wont because if anyone were to contest that claim we'd spend hours debating on a tangent. Afterall, no one should kill a fascist or even arrest him unless he broke the law and here is the key.

The brotherhood DID break the law and let me explain how.
1) For starters, the Muslim Brotherhood as an organization is an Illegal entity. It is not registered with the Egyptian Authorities (even when Morsy was in Office), there are no official records (only Intel and what the media says/hearsay) on its structures, its economic activities, its sources of funding, how many members are part of it.. Nothing. The only two things that is legal and official is their Freedom and Justice party and a charity group. There are historically two court orders entailing that the brotherhood should be dissolved. There is not a single document that says they can begin to exist.

2) The brotherhood were not peacefully demonstrating as Al Jazeera tries to propagate even prior to the crackdown of today. They were occupying 2 whole areas in Cairo isolating both neighborhoods without having government permission (a law that ironically Morsy installed). They were blocking main roads in Nasr City and Mohandessin consistently squirting out huge marches on Cairo's main streets to completely freeze the traffic and intimidate civilians. My cousin got personally harassed by one of the marches right in front of his house and I have a friend whose building was broken into and another whose car was smashed to pieces. The government has repeatedly urged them to cease such activities and to let traffic go through the area they occupying but all to no avail.
That is not mentioning the infamous events (I dunno if you've heard about it) in Alexandria where they threw teenagers off of a building they invaded. That is also not mentioning the vandalism that every single church in my area alone (Its high end) was subjected to (they painted Islameyya on them and wrote insults to the Coptic Pope on their churches). That is also not to mention the hundreds (and I am not exaggerating here) of shops and cars they destroyed on these marches particularly in an area called Bein el Serayat and in an area called Ramses (where they blocked access to the train station connection Cairo to the rest of Egypt). That my dear friend on its own is a form of terrorism even if its petty.

3) The bombing in Sinai. We have had about 5-6 soldiers die almost on a daily basis since the "coup" on the hands of Jihadist groups in Sinai. That is not to mention the army machinery and buildings that was destroyed along the way. One might say that these groups have nothing to do with the people protesting in Raba'a or the brotherhood but Mr.Beltagy disagrees. In case you dont know who that is, he is the 2nd in command now in the MB (now that Shater and Morsy are in Prison) and he said on video that he can make the killings in Sinai stop the instant Morsy is returned to power. He claimed authority and responsibility over what happened and he is running things in Raba'a.
Thats not the worst of it. The Jihadist groups in Sinai also declared that they have made a war council and that the Egyptian Military has no place in Sinai anymore because they will kill them off. This should not be surprising to anyone since Hamas (Palestinian branch of MB) are already recognized as a terrorist group by most nations of the world.

Thus far I have been listing the things they did between the 30th of June and Today that I can recall. Prior to the 30th of June, they publicly promised all Egyptians chaos and a bloodbath if Morsy was ousted. Their tone intensified after the military gave them the 2 day grace period of resolving the situation with the masses. I (and most Egyptians) recall the infamous words that were said "we will crush them infidels" " I see heads that are leaning to be beheaded" to the pleasure of the Raba'a crowd. That tone suddenly transformed to a message of pacifism and peace the moment the military ousted Morsy. That is ofcoarse before they started going on their vandalizing marches across Cairo that I talked about earlier.

4) Today they are fulfilling that chaos and bloodbath promise they made but in the cities too (not just Sinai where it has been a mess ever since the 30th of june). 7 Churches have already been set on fire. About 5 police stations have been set on fire one of which all its officers and soldiers were massacred first. Wady El Natroon Prison (Egypt's largest) has been attacked but the police managed to hold their ground. I have one friend who confirmed live ammunition being fired by both parties in street fights in Mohandessin. Numerous soldiers (official numbers arent out yet but there is a lot of footage) have died. My Cousin (same one) got attacked again because he had to go through their marches to get his passport from the office (he is Saudi and leaving tomorrow) and he too confirmed my friend's testimony that there was two sided gun fire. and ofcoarse there is much happening that Is unseen. Point is the MB are extremely violent today like never before (or like their Sinai based allies or their Gaza occupying branch).

I can start digging up references or sources or even facebook posts and pictures taken by people I personally know but please don't make me.
The situation here is very complex and the international media barely reports on 5% of what happened despite it being common knowledge for the average egyptian now and the Egyptian media of both sides would make fox news look great. The situation is also rapidly changing and so do not run with analysis just yet. Fact is the most fundamental assumptions that the article you posted base the entire analysis on is blatantly false.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Thanks for caring enough to explain. Don't expect me to respond with post like that, it would be unfair.

In conclusion you're telling

Army in Egypt are bunch of mercenaries who are available for a part of society to crush other part. Though they are buying the guns they point at people with everyone's taxes.

If you block main roads and harrass people, you get killed in return. How many people raped in Tahrir btw?

Using guns to oust elected president is not such a big deal because some people were demanding it. But it's not nice to use guns when it comes to defending president. Even after getting shot while praying.

Free to tell me if i got it wrong.

 

[Eddy]

@Turk_Bianconero
This would have been an analysis that I agree with if it wasn't for its misinformed premise. The misinformed premise is namely that the Muslim Brotherhood not only haven't started the violence but also haven't reacted to it. It also uses the word coup to describe what happened with the implication that both Morsy's ouster and the crackdown we are seeing today aren't publicly supported. Wrong on both accounts.

The largest two protests in Egyptian history across all of Egypt preceded the two main events. The first demanded early presidential elections and the second protest was to license the Military to deal with the terrorist threat.

So the first thing to acknowledge here is that the ouster of Morsy was by popular support that preceded any military action and in fact demanded the military to intervene. The second thing to acknowledge here is that the military's crackdown is also by popular support that preceded the crackdown. You would (and probably rightly so) consider this a somewhat fascist act by the majority against the now minority if it weren't for the minority being the muslim brotherhood and other even more extreme Islamists. While I might argue that Islamists by definition are fascists, I wont because if anyone were to contest that claim we'd spend hours debating on a tangent. Afterall, no one should kill a fascist or even arrest him unless he broke the law and here is the key.

The brotherhood DID break the law and let me explain how.
1) For starters, the Muslim Brotherhood as an organization is an Illegal entity. It is not registered with the Egyptian Authorities (even when Morsy was in Office), there are no official records (only Intel and what the media says/hearsay) on its structures, its economic activities, its sources of funding, how many members are part of it.. Nothing. The only two things that is legal and official is their Freedom and Justice party and a charity group. There are historically two court orders entailing that the brotherhood should be dissolved. There is not a single document that says they can begin to exist.

2) The brotherhood were not peacefully demonstrating as Al Jazeera tries to propagate even prior to the crackdown of today. They were occupying 2 whole areas in Cairo isolating both neighborhoods without having government permission (a law that ironically Morsy installed). They were blocking main roads in Nasr City and Mohandessin consistently squirting out huge marches on Cairo's main streets to completely freeze the traffic and intimidate civilians. My cousin got personally harassed by one of the marches right in front of his house and I have a friend whose building was broken into and another whose car was smashed to pieces. The government has repeatedly urged them to cease such activities and to let traffic go through the area they occupying but all to no avail.
That is not mentioning the infamous events (I dunno if you've heard about it) in Alexandria where they threw teenagers off of a building they invaded. That is also not mentioning the vandalism that every single church in my area alone (Its high end) was subjected to (they painted Islameyya on them and wrote insults to the Coptic Pope on their churches). That is also not to mention the hundreds (and I am not exaggerating here) of shops and cars they destroyed on these marches particularly in an area called Bein el Serayat and in an area called Ramses (where they blocked access to the train station connection Cairo to the rest of Egypt). That my dear friend on its own is a form of terrorism even if its petty.

3) The bombing in Sinai. We have had about 5-6 soldiers die almost on a daily basis since the "coup" on the hands of Jihadist groups in Sinai. That is not to mention the army machinery and buildings that was destroyed along the way. One might say that these groups have nothing to do with the people protesting in Raba'a or the brotherhood but Mr.Beltagy disagrees. In case you dont know who that is, he is the 2nd in command now in the MB (now that Shater and Morsy are in Prison) and he said on video that he can make the killings in Sinai stop the instant Morsy is returned to power. He claimed authority and responsibility over what happened and he is running things in Raba'a.
Thats not the worst of it. The Jihadist groups in Sinai also declared that they have made a war council and that the Egyptian Military has no place in Sinai anymore because they will kill them off. This should not be surprising to anyone since Hamas (Palestinian branch of MB) are already recognized as a terrorist group by most nations of the world.

Thus far I have been listing the things they did between the 30th of June and Today that I can recall. Prior to the 30th of June, they publicly promised all Egyptians chaos and a bloodbath if Morsy was ousted. Their tone intensified after the military gave them the 2 day grace period of resolving the situation with the masses. I (and most Egyptians) recall the infamous words that were said "we will crush them infidels" " I see heads that are leaning to be beheaded" to the pleasure of the Raba'a crowd. That tone suddenly transformed to a message of pacifism and peace the moment the military ousted Morsy. That is ofcoarse before they started going on their vandalizing marches across Cairo that I talked about earlier.

4) Today they are fulfilling that chaos and bloodbath promise they made but in the cities too (not just Sinai where it has been a mess ever since the 30th of june). 7 Churches have already been set on fire. About 5 police stations have been set on fire one of which all its officers and soldiers were massacred first. Wady El Natroon Prison (Egypt's largest) has been attacked but the police managed to hold their ground. I have one friend who confirmed live ammunition being fired by both parties in street fights in Mohandessin. Numerous soldiers (official numbers arent out yet but there is a lot of footage) have died. My Cousin (same one) got attacked again because he had to go through their marches to get his passport from the office (he is Saudi and leaving tomorrow) and he too confirmed my friend's testimony that there was two sided gun fire. and ofcoarse there is much happening that Is unseen. Point is the MB are extremely violent today like never before (or like their Sinai based allies or their Gaza occupying branch).

I can start digging up references or sources or even facebook posts and pictures taken by people I personally know but please don't make me.
The situation here is very complex and the international media barely reports on 5% of what happened despite it being common knowledge for the average egyptian now and the Egyptian media of both sides would make fox news look great. The situation is also rapidly changing and so do not run with analysis just yet. Fact is the most fundamental assumptions that the article you posted base the entire analysis on is blatantly false.

y u hate muslims bro ?

 

[swag]

y u hate muslims bro ?

A beard-molester if I ever saw one.

 

[Hist]

Thanks for caring enough to explain. Don't expect me to respond with post like that, it would be unfair.

In conclusion you're telling

Army in Egypt are bunch of mercenaries who are available for a part of society to crush other part. Though they are buying the guns they point at people with everyone's taxes.

If you block main roads and harrass people, you get killed in return. How many people $#@!d in Tahrir btw?

Using guns to oust elected president is not such a big deal because some people were demanding it. But it's not nice to use guns when it comes to defending president. Even after getting shot while praying.

Free to tell me if i got it wrong.

Slightly off. The military is indeed a horrible organization (I've finished my service in its Navy last January) and i've seen practices I'd rather forget but (and thats a big but) they are here not facing a normal fraction of Egyptian society, they are facing (with public support) a fraction that has been terrorising the rest of the population using vandalism, road blocking and the occasional murder in Cairo and Alex AND using Al-Qaeda like terrorism in Sinai (as per Mr.Beltagy).

Its not that the majority of Egyptians suddenly became fascists when not so long ago they were trusting the MB.. its just that they grew sick and tired and were suffering significant damage from the MB's actions. For that reason they called on Sisi to end the MB's Sit-in or let them clear the roads so that normal life can continue. Corpses of tortured people and weapons were found where the MB was camping which is just further confirmation that we are dealing with terrorists and not just civil protesters.

Btw the military didnt just open fire at people or else they'd all be dead or most of them (I'll get you the footage of thousands of them leaving Raba'a under army security unharmed). That would have been political suicide by the army if they had just opened fire. They wanted to disperse the sit-in with minimum damage and thats very difficult to do when the sit-in has armed members and armed supporters across the country. All this does is delay the road map that the army is pushing for its as if they are shooting themselves in the foot. Thats why the army and the government repeatedly requested that the sit-in be dispersed and none shall be followed or atleast to open the roads and quit going out on vandalizing marches.

The guys werent shot while praying (if you are referring to the events from a month ago) the violence began escalating 2 hours after el Fajr prayer thats just what they propagate for sentimental value. And these events took place at the gates of the national guard's barracks. The military is expected to have guns and so is the police by virtue of their jobs. What are civilian protesters doing carrying firearms (regardless of their cause). This is not the US where you have the right to bear arms as a civilian. In Egypt if you walk around carrying a gun (even if concealed) without having a permit (which is almost impossible to get) you get imprisoned. Thats our law.

you might be surprised by how big a portion of Egyptians support Al Qaeda and idolize the likes of Bin Laden.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Its not that the majority of Egyptians suddenly became fascists when not so long ago they were trusting the MB.. its just that they grew sick and tired and were suffering significant damage from the MB's actions.

Why couldn't they wait until next elections to get rid of MB like in the proper countries? Could it be an attempt the change of demographics of the country as MB would still get big chunk of votes despite some were discontent with their actions. I mean, kill required amount of people without causing too much attention unlike Assad, encourage the rest of the protestors to use guns against you, have a good cause to crush them with your tanks.. Then you don't need to deal with them anymore in upcoming elections.

Do you think all this revolution thing could be a bullshit as Mubarak was just a puppet and sacrificed to content angry crowds but army is the true insurance of regime and you will never become a proper state unless the economic and political influence they hold taken from them?

''you might be surprised by how big a portion of Egyptians support Al Qaeda and idolize the likes of Bin Laden.''

I would be surprised if they don't get radicalized even more as their army keep telling them how their vote doesn't count and they have to take what is theirs with power.

 

[Hist]

Officers of El Azbakia police station that was attacked by MB protesters today and set on fire.

Christian School in Egypt
weapons in Raba'a
protesters push a police car off a bridge killing those in it.
[video=facebook;10151872285131474]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151872285131474[/video]
Security Soldier Headshot just because he protects the house of an army official in Ismailia
[video=facebook;10153147127075066]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10153147127075066[/video]
Footage of street wars with dual gunfire between both sides

El behaira governorate building

A government building in alexandria
more protesters firing in Mohandessin Cairo


just showing i am not making shit up

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

just showing i am not making shit up

Haven't said you're making shit up but it's the consequences of war. The war they have declared by ousting the elected president and arresting many, using disproportionate force against protestors.

 

[Eddy]

dat wax

 

[Hist]

Why couldn't they wait until next elections to get rid of MB like in the proper countries? Could it be an attempt the change of demographics of the country as MB would still get big chunk of votes despite some were discontent with their actions. I mean, kill required amount of people without causing too much attention unlike Assad, encourage the rest of the protestors to use guns against you, have a good cause to crush them with your tanks.. Then you don't need to deal with them anymore in upcoming elections.

Do you think all this revolution thing could be a bull$#@! as Mubarak was just a puppet and sacrificed to content angry crowds but army is the true insurance of regime and you will never become a proper state unless the economic and political influence they hold taken from them?

''you might be surprised by how big a portion of Egyptians support Al Qaeda and idolize the likes of Bin Laden.''

I would be surprised if they don't get radicalized even more as their army keep telling them how their vote doesn't count and they have to take what is theirs with power.

excellent point and it is exactly my fear. I have already seen some moderates within my circle becoming more radical since the ouster. Whoever is elected in 9 months will have a tough security job and a tougher reconciliation project to do.


You asked why didn't we wait for 3 more years like normal democracies do. That was Morsy's own work not the military's. His blatant disregard to the economy and his placement of higher priority on political gains (like having his own prosecutor general, his own judges, his own constitution etc..) made our fragile economy collapse at an alarming rate. It didnt help that he promised to fix all the problems within the 1st 100 days of his reign and that he has a project that is almost divinely inspired. He later denied making those claims when the collapse began and his government said that they are following the plans instilled by the Mubarak regime and that there is no such project (the one his whole campaign was supposed to be built on).

To the average Egyptian, he felt cheated and lied to and worse of all he was starving worse than ever before. Democratic process and such "fancy" talk means squat to the average Egyptian whose quality of life has been decreasing since 2011 and more significantly since Morsy took over. They also realized that he did not do anything with regards to his promises for applying Shari'a law (most egyptians are for that).

The division he caused by his poltical policies and the anger he caused by his failing economic policies coupled with the Islamists' attitude and propaganda that claimed everything is fine and dandy made people favor an instant change over a one in 3 years. The collapse and anger happened too fast basically and people took to the streets and went on general strike. The Islamists who were still cheering on Morsy went to Raba'a and at this point all types of Egyptians were on the streets (the people against morsy and the people for morsy) at the same time. So the army stepped in supposedly to avoid a horrible clash between civilians (one of those clashes happened already during Morsy's reign and people starting thinking of civil war).


In my opinion what is currently happening is the only chance that people who did the 25th of Jan revolution can come to power come election time. The two monsters (The Army and the MB) are having a go at each other and the public support for both will diminish making the young folks from 2011 look pretty good. Whoever will be president will share power with the military. Morsy had vast power when he came into office he even kicked out all top level generals from the army and everyone cheered. It is only when the economy failed that people sided with the army.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't said you're making $#@! up but it's the consequences of war. The war they have declared by ousting the elected president and arresting many, using disproportionate force against protestors.

I posted it just in case. But its good to know you slightly shifted from saying they are peaceful protesters to militias with a just cause.

 

[swag]

Why couldn't they wait until next elections to get rid of MB like in the proper countries?

I got the impression that the country could not afford to remain dysfunctional for another three years before attempting to fix its internal ills.

I would be surprised if they don't get radicalized even more as their army keep telling them how their vote doesn't count and they have to take what is theirs with power.

That's my fear too.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Your economy is fragile enough to collapse whenever one of US/Israel or Saudis decide so. They will always manipulate the politics in your country by using this weakness. Morsi will be an example for next presidents, they will remember they will be ousted if they refuse to fall in line. Some will be ousted like Morsi some will be like JFK. Promise of fixing things in 100 days sounds like a bullshit yes, but politicians around the world keep failing to fullfill their promises but armies don't use this as an excuse to arrest them.

Having his own general, judges etc. This is actually how things getting fixed. You can't win a war if your subordinates are refusing to listen your commands. You will be hated by opposition but this is the risk you must take if you really want to fix it.

I posted it just in case. But its good to know you slightly shifted from saying they are peaceful protesters to militias with a just cause.

Most of the people who died were peaceful protestors. As for militias, they can be militias or mercenaries hired by the army to give them a cause to shoot. It is impossible to exactly know.

It is also good to know people can have a fruitful argument even when they disagree.
@clowns who keep laughing and joking on serious matters when they hear something they don't like, do you see?