Egypt: from 2011 demonstrations to today (9 Viewers)

Fred

Senior Member
Oct 2, 2003
41,113
i wish nato or the cool air forces u seem to put in high regard come and do the job instead of the shitty arab one :tup:

sisi is no angel and if u read my posts you will realize i don't rate him highly.
If we were wishing, I wish we'd be able to do the job on our own. But the second best option is having a real air force(yes such as NATO), not one that cannot even keep its own country safe.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
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    Well, let me have a third opinion here, guys :D

    Neither Arab forces are accurate, nor Nato really cares what they are targeting. That is why I think these airstrikes will not make anything fruitful.
    Arabs should look for another solution.
     

    Fred

    Senior Member
    Oct 2, 2003
    41,113
    Well, let me have a third opinion here, guys :D

    Neither Arab forces are accurate, nor Nato really cares what they are targeting. That is why I think these airstrikes will not make anything fruitful.
    Arabs should look for another solution.
    I won't argue about their intention, but let me tell you they did a pretty good job during the revolution. I have relatives who are staunch Gedaffi supporters to this day, and even they marvel at how accurate NATO was. Sure there were some mistakes, mainly in Zliten and one incident in Tripoli, but all in all, they had very few civilian casualties given the circumstances.

    Btw, I agree I don't want any sort of foreign intervention right now, I was just saying that if there were to be a foreign intervention, I'd prefer it came from a proper air force. I think that if both major parties of the conflict in Libya; Fajr Libya (mainly Misrata) and Hiftar's forces were to unite against the radical groups, we wouldn't need any intervention at all.
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    Well, let me have a third opinion here, guys :D

    Neither Arab forces are accurate, nor Nato really cares what they are targeting. That is why I think these airstrikes will not make anything fruitful.
    Arabs should look for another solution.
    I agree with the need to find a solution, like what?

    what is the alternative to not getting involved? you can't expect countries like Egypt and Algeria to sit while isis savages are next door considering ISIS operates by expanding through Territory. what if the two factions in Libya don't agree what next? ( note: you do realize Egypt and Qatar are supporting different sides and as things stand its not a rosy relationship between both countries so i don't know how this will go down)


    ok egypt doesn't continue with raiding the ISIS sites, i understand the concern for civilians etc. didn't egypt ask for a coalition and it was met with rejection? so if the international community wont get involved in fixing a mess they had a hand in creating in the first place, what is the alternative at least for the countries that border libya?


    libya panorama, a tv channel apparently has sisi recordings with regards to libya and the events there.. should be interesting.

    an interesting read : http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/143043/audrey-kurth-cronin/isis-is-not-a-terrorist-group
     
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    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
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    I just heard the new recorded phone call which was revealed tonight. It just showed that the same gang are playing with the destiny of many countries in the Middle East. A dirty character like Muhammad Dahlan unfortunately has the authority to make troubles in Libya, Egypt and Palestine. Too sad.
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    I just heard the new recorded phone call which was revealed tonight. It just showed that the same gang are playing with the destiny of many countries in the Middle East. A dirty character like Muhammad Dahlan unfortunately has the authority to make troubles in Libya, Egypt and Palestine. Too sad.
    I still didn't hear them nor did I read anything about them Abed. What else do they contain? I don't Generally take them seriously because you can't confirm its authenticity but guess based on what's next we can know if they are real or not.
     
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    ReBeL

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    I still didn't hear them nor did I read anything about them Abed. What else do they contain? I don't Generally take them seriously because you can't confirm its authenticity but guess based on what's next we can know if they are real or not.
    It mentioned that Ahmad Qathaf Aldam, "Qaddafi's cousin" is coordinating with Sisi and Ali Zidan "Libya prime minister". That is the main thing
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    It mentioned that Ahmad Qathaf Aldam, "Qaddafi's cousin" is coordinating with Sisi and Ali Zidan "Libya prime minister". That is the main thing
    :tup: thank you reb

    looks like we are voluntarily choosing to back one side over the other instead of trying to bring both parties together to settle things peacefully hence sparing Libya the same scenario that is taking place in Syria and Iraq which spells disaster. its becoming clear this was not only about the killing of the hostages only, but a means of releasing building up pressure domestically after a run of domestic catastrophes that come in a list ending with the stadium killings.
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    Finally listened to the new leak and it comes as no surprise we are one of the nations involved directly in a power struggle in Libya ( sadly things don't turn out well when we do, example Sudan, Mubarak regime was heavily criticized domestically and regionally for that) . I say one of the nations because the rest are Uae, Qatar, Turkey, and NATO).

    The leaks aside, the fact of the matter remains nothing has changed in the Middle East and specifically in Egypt. Exactly a year and a half ago Morsy in what was one of the very last public rallies he would attend and which was called "supporting the Syrian cause" had tried to get Egypt involved in another power struggle only this time with a sectarian flavor. I remember the uproar in the media, and the Egyptian street as Egypt really never had this Sunni/shiaa issue at least the majority non Islamists section of the population. Not to mention its one of the least important files in the Egyptian priority lists considering things were not better domestically in Cairo with the political turmoil in the Egyptian street. Yet here we are today in a similar position. Despite the differences in the two occasions there is a one thing in particular that is common, the attempt to get the blessing of the Gulf States. Morsy has always tried to get the Saudi's on his side but never did and on that day he was clearly sending them a message that showed Egypt's commitment to take part in a Sunni/shiaa conflict. Not far behind is the current regime, where Sisi has made Egyptian foreign and even military policy revolve around the Gulf, after all the gulf states are sending in Aid after Aid and showing public and private support to the Egyptian regime.

    The Egyptian proposal in the Security Council calling for an international coalition was turned down and it didn't take long for the media to spin the story and feed the public. However the media in Egypt doesn't have the guts to come out to the people and explain why the proposal never flew. add to that, the egyptain move was quite late as the 21 hostages were taken two months ago!
    Egypt used the gruesome slaughtering of the 20 Egyptians and the Ghanaian citizen in Libya on the hands of ISIS as a PR move both for the domestic population and international community.

    Domestically they wanted to portray that Egyptian life is valuable, and that loss of life of any Egyptian regardless of his faith (considering the 20 killed where Coptic Egyptians) would be handled with the utmost strictness possible! And to the pleasure of Egyptians myself included we were both surprised and I have to admit a little bit happy that finally Egypt does retaliate after years of not giving any care. However as soon as the images of the gruesome crime fade from your head, and you start finding out the details and reality of Egypt's involvement in Libya you begin to doubt this show of strength. Firstly, two weeks prior to this terrorist attack Cairo was home to yet another terrorist attack only this time it was not carried out by armed men wearing masks covering their faces and speaking fluent English, no this time it was carried out by men wearing black uniforms, with their faces unmasked they are called the Egyptian police. The incident involved the death of 20+ Egyptian citizens who belonged to the ultras of Cairo's second biggest team. They died due to a stampede caused by the police firing tear gas canisters amongst a crowd standing in a cage like alley which was very narrow and had only one exit as the other exit to this alley was locked. To this very minute no one was held accountable; no one from the government came out to explain why only in Egypt and countries of the same level people die whenever the police are around!! Needless to say any talk of reform in the ministry of interior's security philosophy is not allowed. So it is kind of hypocritical that the 21 citizens killed in Libya are held in higher regard than the 20 killed in Cairo, in what felt like the Egyptian government stating I can get away with killing my own people but to get competition from abroad would not be welcomed. In fact prior to this football event, the president of the zamalek club has been threatening that he will make sure the ultra's get jailed or killed and that he has made it his low life's mission to make sure this happens, did I mention these threats were made on state owned television?? Oh yes they were.

    moving on to the international community, these terror attacks were used to show the west and the united states in particular why they should lift the ban on the American aid to Egypt ( 1.3 billion usd is Egypt's military package, and it involves military technology and more importantly spare parts for the Apache assault helicopter). I can argue that had Egypt had a decent at best track record domestically there would be more weight to the conspiracy theory but the facts prove otherwise.

    Firstly I am not a military expert but a little common sense dictates that before going on with a retaliation strike (note: as an Egyptian citizen this reaction is too good to be true!!) you should may be just may be make sure Egyptian citizens who call Libya home are back in Egypt since it's also common sense that there is every chance a back lash will target them? It is important to note that Libya is home to an estimated one million Egyptian workers mainly labor. Funny enough the evacuation started after the first raid if you can call it an evacuation.

    Secondly, logic dictates that you need the Libyan citizen on your side so I would've imagined the authorities would've made the average Libyan citizen a priority hence minimizing any loss of life to a person who had nothing to do with the killings. Let's say they didn't (considering there are civilian causalities) I would imagine at least the bare minimum is making sure the victims of the raid were subjected to the highest care after they were part of the loss that accompanied the military attack. (I am fully aware ISIS uses the average civilian but you just can't bomb someone's house, killing his family and destroying his house and not addressing this!!) So here is what logic dictates, this civilian will not have any kind of sympathy to help your cause, let alone he might join the side that will carry the action to your very doorstep.

    As for Aljazeera, a channel everyone in Egypt, myself included doesn't really like, and they have proven to be nothing more than a tool for Qatar, yet we keep complaining and never decide to think of ways to out play it. Studies carried out by more than a dozen political and strategic research centers have proven over and over the only reason Aljazeera is the go to channel for your average Arab citizen is the fact local or state owned media is nothing more than a propaganda machine in the hands of the rulers.

    Back to Libya, the Egyptian media went into a frenzy similar to ones carried out by fox news, the public was shown the video's of the Egyptian F-16's roaring full after burner down the runway whilst they play on the patriotic/nationalistic vibes of people ( note this is something similar between the Sisi regime and the morsy regime, only one played on religious vibes and the other on nationalistic ones.

    as if this wasn't enough, and since life is filled with unexpected turn of events, a popular talk show ( in Egypt we have a talk show for every citizen) had an Egyptian citizen literally begging for dear life on the phone, whilst he was calling from Libya. This poor citizen was calling in to report that he and another dozen Egyptians where being chased by gangs in retaliation to the attacks. Now you would expect the presenter of the show to at least comfort the guy, give him advice, and more importantly connect him with the Egyptian authorities to find a way to get them out of harm's way. What was to come literally made me spit out my coffee while watching this, the poor caller was met with "what sent you to Libya?!!" that’s the first thing to come out of the presenters mouth!! The classic go to response for the Egyptian media when shit hits the fan!! A girl gets her dressed ripped off her in public by soldiers ANSWER: what sent her there?!?! A group of football fans get killed ANSWER what sent them there?!?

    To make sure you understand why an Egyptian citizen goes to Libya and Iraq two nations who are amidst very serious turmoil. The answer is very simple: trying to make a living! A decent living they did not find in their own country due to years of corruption, social injustice, and lack of opportunities. Some might say but Egypt is a poor country? The answer is Egypt is not a poor country, the only reason Egypt is considered poor is due to piss poor management. Any way Egyptians turn to Libya that has a small population compared with its size for a decent living that has always been the case not just today but from the 50, and 60's of last century. Libya is not only close geographically but also culturally so it comes as no surprise. Why are they still in Libya? The answer is quite simple they have no other option because let me enlighten you to the alternatives:

    1- go to Libya and Iraq. If you are lucky may be get a contract in Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, etc who depend primarily on labor from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.
    2- Jump on a fishing boat that is falling apart in port as it is and make the journey to Italy or Europe. You are faced with very limited outcomes, not worst of them is drowning in the Mediterranean sea, get banged up in Italy, or Greece and get deported to Egypt (losing thousands of Egyptian pounds paid to smugglers in most cases its family savings!!!) make it to Italy with the grace of god only to get exploited due to not having the legal documents making them fugitives and so settle for abuse.
    3- Join terrorist groups like ISIS. Some might say you are over-reacting, well I highly recommend you check out the New York times' website and watch the video report of an Egyptian man (in his late twenties early thirties) belonging to the middle class and living in Cairo (in Cairo things are better than the rest of the Egyptian cities that are neglected mind you) pushed to the edge of disparity and eventually making his way to Syria to pick up arms with ISIS. In the video it showed you the main reason for why we have ISIS, its only when the dreams and ambitions of a person are shattered right in front of his eyes, and any attempts to try and make something out of his life are blocked can you expect him to turn to groups that know how to recruit the shattered youth.

    Finally Egypt needs to change the way it views things, it's only when the country respects its own citizens can it go forward. Isis is a danger very much at our door steps in Libya and is already in Sinai but as long as we choose to bury our heads in the sand I see them remaining a problem. Years of oppression in the name of national security, religion, and demographic reasons have all led to the creation of groups like ISIS.
    A year ago people opposing the rule of the Muslim brotherhood were called infidels and against god, today people who oppose are called traitors. As long as we are ruled in this way I don't see any regime lasting. Before going to retaliate internationally this current regime should may be start by retaliating domestically for the loss of life with in its very borders. Egyptian loss of life whether civilian, or military should be treated in the same way without discrimination based on the reason for such death. An Egyptian killed while serving his country and an Egyptian killed for fighting for his rights should be treated equally because at the end it’s a loss of Egyptian life.
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    83,441
    Reb and Bisco... :delpiero:

    I haven't seen anything in the Western media about these leaks. I'd like to think it's due to the time involved with fact and source checking, but since when has that been an obstacle for our media to post rumors as facts before?

    And great context here, Bisco. What you outline completely makes sense. (I love the comment about every Egyptian practically having their own talk show.)
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    Reb and Bisco... :delpiero:

    I haven't seen anything in the Western media about these leaks. I'd like to think it's due to the time involved with fact and source checking, but since when has that been an obstacle for our media to post rumors as facts before?

    And great context here, Bisco. What you outline completely makes sense. (I love the comment about every Egyptian practically having their own talk show.)
    you are welcome greg :tup: the leaks (despite not being able to confirm authenticity ) have been around in fact this is probably the 3rd or 4th leak to come out. i mention the authenticity point however if you consider the events prior or after these leaks you can pretty much confirm such leaks.

    the first leak to come out was actually about using certain presenters who mind you were mentioned by name to polish the image of then minister of defense Sisi. you would imagine that with his popularity amongst egyptain's he wouldn't need the extra help however when you don't have a clear electorial program so that people can judge you based on then you need the help. when after the june 30 removal of morsy he did come out and say he won't be running for presidency ( sounds familiar right? after all the Mb also made such claims and went on to win the presidency)

    2- the second leak is actually one that revolved around the gulf states who are the one's supporting Egypt economically. apparently in this leak they were discussing how much would go to the coffers of the army, in what sounded like the egyptain military is being used by the gulf states. i stumbled upon an article published in the guardian on the 26th of august 2014 which stated that Egypt along with the Uae were responsible for an air raid in Libya. article : http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/united-arab-emirates-bombing-raids-libyan-militias

    3- the third leak is the one Rebel mentioned which basically outlines Egypt's roll in supporting a specific faction in Libya against the other faction which is Islamist. now i understand Egypt's sensitivity towards another Islamist group coming to power on the western borders. it is a bit complicated due to the involvement of Qatar and Turkey on the other side so i understand the stakes but i disagree about how we are handling this its actually not handling our interests properly.

    i am glad you found this helpful Greg it makes me very happy. i actually owe Fred and rebel because i had to dig to understand the situation in Libya because you never hear about this amongst the frenzy of supporting the troops if you can get away with calling it that.

    the talk show for every citizen is an old classic line :D sadly its because of these talk shows the people are left confused i remember during morsy they had an "islamic version" so every one had their version :D the only show that ever made a difference in egypt and actually taught people a thing or two about being better citizens was the Bassem Youssef ( the egyptain version of jon stewart) show!! this current regime lost a lot when they indirectly pulled the strings on closing it down.
     
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    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
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    Nice posts, Bisco...
    I was just attending a match between an Egyptian club and Algerian club in a cafe here in Khartoum. I think it is an African final or something. To be honest, I could not care less who wins, but seeing how Egyptians reacted and shed tears at the end of the match made me sympathizing with all those who suffered in their country but nevertheless they are still having a great passion for it.
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    Nice posts, Bisco...
    I was just attending a match between an Egyptian club and Algerian club in a cafe here in Khartoum. I think it is an African final or something. To be honest, I could not care less who wins, but seeing how Egyptians reacted and shed tears at the end of the match made me sympathizing with all those who suffered in their country but nevertheless they are still having a great passion for it.
    :D it was the african super i actually had no idea it was being played :D its great it went well its nice things are getting normal on this front :tup:
     
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    ReBeL

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    A funny speech by Sisi this evening. A very long one with one goal only. "I beg the leaders of Saudi, Kuwait, UAE and Bahrain to believe me that I never insulted them". He just proved it with his words :D
     
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    ReBeL

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    Aljazeera just announced it will show for the first time today a recorded conversation for the interior minister of Sisi.

    I loved Sisi yesterday when he was blaming the 4G for these recorded conversations before he said he never said anything against Gulf countries :D

    And he did not feel any contradiction in his sentences ever!
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    Aljazeera just announced it will show for the first time today a recorded conversation for the interior minister of Sisi.

    I loved Sisi yesterday when he was blaming the 4G for these recorded conversations before he said he never said anything against Gulf countries :D

    And he did not feel any contradiction in his sentences ever!
    :D to this minute i had no idea what he meant by fourth generation warfare! then when i saw 4g i was like aaaaaaaaaaaa that 4th generation stuff.
     

    Bisco

    Senior Member
    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    been doing a lot of reading as i have to prepare for my course work :bianconero: thought some would be interested :)

    Who is the man Egypt co-coordinating with Egypt and the Uae.
    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/unravelling
    The sale of French fighters to Egypt
    http://www.france24.com/en/20150212-egypt-agrees-deal-buy-french-fighter-jets-rafale/
    US/Egyptian relations and ISIS
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/18/u-s-won-t-back-egypt-s-attacks-on-isis.html
    US state department meeting with Mb delegation.

    http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...an-revolutionary-council-visits-washington-dc
    The criticism to this meeting:
    http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-b...e-all-the-egyptian-army#.VM5BNmZeDes.facebook
    Open jihad declared on Egypt by MB and includes the press releases I mention that were published on the MB official website.

    http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...ting-with-muslim-brotherhood-aligned-leaders/

    The Saudi's and the MB (sadly you need to place your email to get the entire article sent to you by mail)

    https://www.stratfor.com/sample/analysis/saudi-arabia-can-adversary-become-partner
    another article that is actually old but gives a detailed history between the two entities:

    https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/s...di Arabia, Can an Adversary Become a Partner?

    an interesting perspective on why Hamas is the go to hanger:

    http://arabawy.org/96303/Why_Sisi_fears_Gaza

    media in egypt, and how its role changed:

    http://egyptianstreets.com/2014/10/29/where-is-the-media-in-egypt/
     
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    ReBeL

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    Today, Egypt became the 4th country to consider Hamas a terrorist organization after Israel, USA and Canada. It seems a new round of war will take place soon in Gaza Strip...
     

    Bisco

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    Nov 21, 2005
    14,378
    Today, Egypt became the 4th country to consider Hamas a terrorist organization after Israel, USA and Canada. It seems a new round of war will take place soon in Gaza Strip...
    Some times I wonder do the people in charge of Egypt's foreign policy have brains or not. I say this because of all Egypt's foreign policy files,the Gaza file is the one that is treated with abundant stupidity. Egypt is fighting terrorism in Sinai, they blame Hamas, so there logic is every one including the very residents of Gaza that logically you need to be on your side should suffer. What they don't seem to understand is that they are creating a lot of mini bombs that sooner or later will explode in their faces. Then we have the nerve to sit and wonder hmm why is Qatar and Turkey projecting influence?! The answer is because we so conveniently decided to ditch our historical and geopolitical role in the region. What adds insult to injury is the media pushing people in Gaza to have one request! They don't request we open the borders for aid and the sick, they now request we just stop talking all together and leave them the fuck alone. I don't recall a darker period in Egypt's history that even comes close to this. Mind you I dislike the mb a great deal it's not a secret but the only ones getting crushed are not Hamas, it's the average resident who is being pushed to hate Egypt more than he hates Israel due to how this is handled. Egypt got rid of the tunnels which mind you existed with authorities being fully aware of, yet no one said let's come up with a way to help the people so that we don't have tunnels since they claim it's used for terrorist action. Considering Egypt has bilateral relations with all involved in this conflict why can't we have a task force that monitors and controls the border crossing, how hard can that be?
     

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