Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (19 Viewers)

[Ford Prefect]

In the Vatican?

I take offense, I keep my toilet clean!!!!!

 

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[Sheik Yerbouti]

Seriously, this thread, it's like coming to a stand up show.

Thank you. That'll be $10.

I take offense, I keep my toilet clean!!!!!

Apologies.

 

[Raz]

Thank you. That'll be $10.

I must apologies, I'm broke, could I sit here quietly at the corner and just enjoy the show?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I must apologies, I'm broke, could I sit here quietly at the corner and just enjoy the show?

Sheik Yerbouti is forgiving and merciful and all-loving. Therefore, you may not. GET OUT!

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

but you are assuming we didnt choose to be here in the first place, moreover where does that put someone like you?

No we didn't choose to be here. In fact, we had no say in the matter.

Where does that put me? Right here.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

No we didn't choose to be here. In fact, we had no say in the matter.

Where does that put me? Right here.

how do you know you dindt choose to be here?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

how do you know you dindt choose to be here?

Irrelevant, because I was never offered the choice if I wanted to be here or not.

Besides, isn't that paradoxical? How could I make the decision if I want to or don't want to be, without first being?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Irrelevant, because I was never offered the choice if I wanted to be here or not.

Besides, isn't that paradoxical? How could I make the decision if I want to or don't want to be, without first being?

it is relevant and you dont know that you dindt make hat choice. And the choice here between right and wrong(ethically) or rather to be in a position to make that choice, it's not between choosing apples or oranges

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

it is relevant and you dont know that you dindt make hat choice. And the choice here between right and wrong(ethically) or rather to be in a position to make that choice, it's not between choosing apples or oranges

How do I have the choice when I'm powerless in the process of my creation?

Also, how is this relevant to the question of why god can't ask/tell me to have faith in his judgment?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

creation where? here in this world? heck ya it's relevant

it is relevant because you chose to be here, how is a choice if just skip the being here? Action will have to take precedence over judgement, a judgement that, despite much speculation, nobody truly knows.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

creation where? here in this world? heck ya it's relevant

it is relevant because you chose to be here, how is a choice if just skip the being here? Action will have to take precedence over judgement, a judgement that, despite much speculation, nobody truly knows.

What? In this world, MY PARENTS chose to want me here, not me. I had NO SAY in the matter.

But we're taking about god here. He already knows the outcome of the actions. He truly knows because he's omniscient by definition. Therefore, he can skip the action and get right to judgment.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

so my assumption was correct, well you pose a question you get the answer and you dont throw a fit when teh answer is not what you wanted to hear.

Yes he can but hes not so what is your point?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

so my assumption was correct, well you pose a question you get the answer and you dont throw a fit when teh answer is not what you wanted to hear.

Yes he can but hes not so what is your point?

My point is that it goes against his perfect nature to create us when he knows exactly what we'll do. Testing us is redundant, and that's not something a perfect being would do. Therefore, he cannot exist. Because if a being with those attributes existed, then we would not exist.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

thats according to your understanding of both what a perfect being is and what he would do. Allowing us to live out our choice falls under the umbrella of all just and doesnt NOT contradict omniscient and your attempts to equate capacity and action on that capacity wont change that.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

thats according to your understanding of both what a perfect being is and what he would do. Allowing us to live out our choice falls under the umbrella of all just and doesnt NOT contradict omniscient and your attempts to equate capacity and action on that capacity wont change that.

It does not contradict his omniscience, but it contradicts his perfect nature.

And you wanna talk about just? Then please tell me what is just about this:

God created us hardwired to believe in things which are supported by reason and evidence. But when we use the same reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that we don't believe in him, then he punishes us, and insists that we have blind faith in him. How is that just?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Visited a Hindu temple yesterday. Absolutely beautiful. The architecture, the art and statues. And the stories behind the gods are so fascinating and much more interesting than bland, old Christianity.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It does not contradict his omniscience, but it contradicts his perfect nature.

And you wanna talk about just? Then please tell me what is just about this:

God created us hardwired to believe in things which are supported by reason and evidence. But when we use the same reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that we don't believe in him, then he punishes us, and insists that we have blind faith in him. How is that just?

i said it, no one knows what his judgement is or will be like, though many will speculate.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Visited a Hindu temple yesterday. Absolutely beautiful. The architecture, the art and statues. And the stories behind the gods are so fascinating and much more interesting than bland, old Christianity.

Check out the story of Ganesh and how he came to be, and tell me what you think about it.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Check out the story of Ganesh and how he came to be, and tell me what you think about it.

Word. And I like how Krishna's a pimp.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Visited a Hindu temple yesterday. Absolutely beautiful. The architecture, the art and statues. And the stories behind the gods are so fascinating and much more interesting than bland, old Christianity.

The Buddhist, Hindu & ancient Mediterranean gods are far more fun to read about.

I would say Nordic but they're just dull given how hyped they get with the metal scene and Thor.