Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (39 Viewers)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I disagree and this is where we have a problem. Clearly there's no point debating this any longer because I doubt either of us will change our opinion on that statement.

Let me clarify that statement: If there is true freedom of choice, then no one can know with 100% certainty what your choice is and what the consequence of your choice will be. People can guess what you may likely choose, but they can never be 100% certain of what you'll choose. Since god is perfect, he will know with 100% certainty what I'll choose.

Now, if you wanna disagree with that, then state your reasons. Or else, I'll consider this a cop-out.

 

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[Quetzalcoatl]

Seems the theists have been stumped again. Good job, Sheik.

 

[ZoSo]

Let me clarify that statement: If there is true freedom of choice, then no one can know with 100% certainty what your choice is and what the consequence of your choice will be. People can guess what you may likely choose, but they can never be 100% certain of what you'll choose. Since god is perfect, he will know with 100% certainty what I'll choose.

Now, if you wanna disagree with that, then state your reasons. Or else, I'll consider this a cop-out.

I disagree because god knowing what I may choose does not affect my decision thus giving me freedom of choice.



---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 04:43 ----------

Seems the theists have been stumped again. Good job, Sheik.

try to say something smart for once.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I disagree because god knowing what I may choose does not affect my decision thus giving me freedom of choice.

.

That's because there is no decision to make. The decision has already been determined. You have no choice. His will be done.

Seems the theists have been stumped again. Good job, Sheik.

Don't be foolish. They're watching England- Italy.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

try to say something smart for once.

AC's apprentice

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Ps we are watching the game and nothing sheik says stumps anyone but himself. We're not the confused ones. See y'all later

 

[ZoSo]

That's because there is no decision to make. The decision has already been determined. You have no choice. His will be done.

No, it hasn't been determined; it's free choice.

AC's apprentice

Sheik's lackey

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 05:40 ----------

Ps we are watching the game and nothing sheik says stumps anyone but himself. We're not the confused ones. See y'all later

very true

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Sheik is actually my... wait, lackey? The fuck?

 

[ZoSo]

poor.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No, it hasn't been determined; it's free choice.

It's been determined. Ask god. He knows it.

 

[Hængebøffer]

No, it hasn't been determined; it's free choice.



Sheik's lackey

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 05:40 ----------



very true

Well, you guys have a different understanding of free will, so you will never agree. Your point is good, but I agree with Sheik, that it must be an illusion, if God knows what I will choose all along.
Mentalists (or whatever they are called) do this with people all the time.

 

[Ford Prefect]

God knowing what you are going to choose to eat for dinner does not mean you don't have free will. God knows what your going to have for dinner, but you chose what to have yourself.

Come on Moh, you can do a lot better than that.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Well, you guys have a different understanding of free will, so you will never agree. Your point is good, but I agree with Sheik, that it must be an illusion, if God knows what I will choose all along.
Mentalists (or whatever they are called) do this with people all the time.

the problem is you guys don't understand he knows all outcomes of all choices and all paths, but our free will picks the path we want therefore it could not be what he wants for us. Its not predestination. Its like a GPS which nows all routes to the same place yet if we veer off course it recalculates to get us there because it wants us to get to that destination, yet if we choose to ignore it and go our way we wont get there. So God tries to steer us in his path with his will, but in the end the decision is ours and if we choose not to follow we go astray,off the path and against his will. That is why prayer is good it connects you to God's will and he shows you his path. that is why most believers say in prayer " Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

the problem is you guys don't understand he knows all outcomes of all choices and all paths, but our free will picks the path we want therefore it could not be what he wants for us. Its not predestination. Its like a GPS which nows all routes to the same place yet if we veer off course it recalculates to get us there because it wants us to get to that destination, yet if we choose to ignore it and go our way we wont get there. So God tries to steer us in his path with his will, but in the end the decision is ours and if we choose not to follow we go astray,off the path and against his will. That is why prayer is good it connects you to God's will and he shows you his path. that is why most believers say in prayer " Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

What's the point of multiple choices and multiple outcomes if all that god wants is us to follow in the path? His path? Free will is pointless if god does not appreciate humans following different paths than the one he prefers. Atheism is a result of free will. But what's the point if god condemns all atheists and unbelievers and wants all of us to believe in him like mindless zombies? What's the point if only the believers are given favourable outcome of going to heaven? It makes no sense. All this talk about GPS and praying to god and connecting with him is just white noise to me. It means nothing.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

What's the point of multiple choices and multiple outcomes if all that god wants is us to follow in the path? His path? Free will is pointless if god does not appreciate humans following different paths than the one he prefers. Atheism is a result of free will. But what's the point if god condemns all atheists and unbelievers and wants all of us to believe in him like mindless zombies? What's the point if only the believers are given favourable outcome of going to heaven? It makes no sense. All this talk about GPS and praying to god and connecting with him is just white noise to me. It means nothing.

Because he wants us to choose him by our own desire not forced or coerced. That's why there are many paths. You don't have to choose him even though he desires that. Ps I have stated it 1milliom times he doesn't condemn anyone our free will decides where we end up. If we choose a life without God we choose eternity without God

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Because he wants us to choose him by our own desire not forced or coerced. That's why there are many paths. You don't have to choose him even though he desires that

But if I don't choose him, I'm going to hell. He'll punish me with fire and brimstone for all eternity. And I don't want that. So if I want to go to heaven(which apparently is what all religious people want in the end), I HAVE to pick the other option, which is believing in him. That's blackmailing masqueraded as free will.

 

[Zlatan]

the problem is you guys don't understand he knows all outcomes of all choices and all paths, but our free will picks the path we want therefore it could not be what he wants for us. Its not predestination. Its like a GPS which nows all routes to the same place yet if we veer off course it recalculates to get us there because it wants us to get to that destination, yet if we choose to ignore it and go our way we wont get there. So God tries to steer us in his path with his will, but in the end the decision is ours and if we choose not to follow we go astray,off the path and against his will. That is why prayer is good it connects you to God's will and he shows you his path. that is why most believers say in prayer " Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

The GPS analogy is not entirely correct. God, being omnipotent, not only knows the outcomes of all choices and all paths, he also knows exactly which path you will choose. So he knows exactly all choices you will make in your life the second you are born. Hence, if life is a test to get into Heaven, it has no point because he already knows how you will do the test. Hence there is no point in doing the test and you could be put in heaven or hell without even having to live. Because God knows exactly what you will do.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

But if I don't choose him, I'm going to hell. He'll punish me with fire and brimstone for all eternity. And I don't want that. So if I want to go to heaven(which apparently is what all religious people want in the end), I HAVE to pick the other option, which is believing in him. That's blackmailing masqueraded as free will.

Read the edit. Hell is a choice it is the absence of God but let me tell you even you at your last breath will be called by God for repentance

 

[AndreaCristiano]

The GPS analogy is not entirely correct. God, being omnipotent, not only knows the outcomes of all choices and all paths, he also knows exactly which path you will choose. So he knows exactly all choices you will make in your life the second you are born. Hence, if life is a test to get into Heaven, it has no point because he already knows how you will do the test. Hence there is no point in doing the test and you could be put in heaven or hell without even having to live. Because God knows exactly what you will do.

No he does not that was the one stipulation per se of free will God can neither interfere nor take away your free will

 

[Zlatan]

No he does not that was the one stipulation per se of free will God can neither interfere nor take away your free will

The point is not free will: the point is that, regardless of your freedom to choose, he knows exactly the choice you will make. If he does not know exactly the choice you will make, then he is not omnipotent.