Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (35 Viewers)

[AndreaCristiano]

So you're saying that gods' plan is NOT planned down to the minute details? Doesn't seem like the kind of a plan an all-knowing deity would make.

he instilled us with free will sheik if he planned every detail their wouldnt be free will

 

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[Sheik Yerbouti]

he instilled us with free will sheik if he planned every detail their wouldnt be free will

Since he's all-knowing, all we have is an illusion of free will. Without uncertainty, there is no true free will. If I can't surprise god with my free will, then free will is meaningless.

Now we're just deviating from the topic we were discussing. Every detail, no matter how epic or minute, either is or isn't part of gods' plan. Therefore, praying is either redundant or futile.

I ask you again: Prove to me using logic AND experiment that god is willing to change his plan and accommodate our petitions. Until you do that, this argument is going nowhere.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Since he's all-knowing, all we have is an illusion of free will. Without uncertainty, there is no true free will. If I can't surprise god with my free will, then free will is meaningless.

Now we're just deviating from the topic we were discussing. Every detail, no matter how epic or minute, either is or isn't part of gods' plan. Therefore, praying is either redundant or futile.

I ask you again: Prove to me using logic AND experiment that god is willing to change his plan and accommodate our petitions. Until you do that, this argument is going nowhere.

It's not an illusion because we can choose to live without him ala you. So therefore you chose to ignore his will and desires and live for you. Hence free will

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

It's not an illusion because we can choose to live without him ala you. So therefore you chose to ignore his will and desires and live for you. Hence free will

You're missing my point. Let's say I want to choose what I'll have for dinner: pizza, noodles or fried rice. What I'm saying is that god already knows what I'm gonna choose to have for dinner. Let's say he knows that I'll have pizza for dinner. Now even if I had more choices, less choices or even different choices, I'd still choose pizza. So all those choices are pointless and only provide me an illusion of free will, whereas in reality, I would've always chosen pizza. Unless god had no knowledge of my decision and it remained a mystery to him, all there is is an illusion of free will. But that's not possible because god is all-knowing. Nothing is a mystery to him. Therefore, I have no true free will.

 

[Fred]

You're missing my point. Let's say I want to choose what I'll have for dinner: pizza, noodles or fried rice. What I'm saying is that god already knows what I'm gonna choose to have for dinner. Let's say he knows that I'll have pizza for dinner. Now even if I had more choices, less choices or even different choices, I'd still choose pizza. So all those choices are pointless and only provide me an illusion of free will, whereas in reality, I would've always chosen pizza. Unless god had no knowledge of my decision and it remained a mystery to him, all there is is an illusion of free will. But that's not possible because god is all-knowing. Nothing is a mystery to him. Therefore, I have no true free will.

God knowing what you are going to choose to eat for dinner does not mean you don't have free will. God knows what your going to have for dinner, but you chose what to have yourself.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

God knowing what you are going to choose to eat for dinner does not mean you don't have free will. God knows what your going to have for dinner, but you chose what to have yourself.

Yes, I chose from the illusion of free will, to eat a pizza. Which god knew I would choose all along.

If there was true free will, then god would not know what I'd choose. And if god would not know that, then by definition, he would cease to exist because he's not omniscient anymore.

 

[Fred]

Yes, I chose from the illusion of choice, the illusion of free will, to eat a pizza. Which god knew I would choose all along.

If there was true free will, then god would not know what I'd choose. And if god would not know that, then by definition, he would cease to exist because he's not omniscient anymore.

I still do not see how God knowing what you're going to eat, takes away free will?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I still do not see how God knowing what you're going to eat, takes away free will?

If I have free will, and I have complete freedom to make a choice of my own, then the only person who knows what I'll choose is me. No one else can know that. If someone else does, then it greatly diminishes the value of free will to the extent that it's no longer free but pre-determined.

 

[ZoSo]

Sheik, you are seriously arguing crap, god knowing our choices does not remove our free will or even give an illusion of free will because we are the ones making the choices! Plain and simple!

 

[Martin]

Sheik, you are seriously arguing crap, god knowing our choices does not remove our free will or even give an illusion of free will because we are the ones making the choices! Plain and simple!

If I have a puppet and I make the puppet nod, does the puppet have free will?

 

[ZoSo]

How does god make us nod?

 

[Martin]

How does god make us nod?

By definition I don't know, do I? The puppet couldn't possibly, it's ignorant.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Sheik, you are seriously arguing crap, god knowing our choices does not remove our free will or even give an illusion of free will because we are the ones making the choices! Plain and simple!

But it's not a choice. It's just an illusion. God is giving you the illusion of choice and free will, but in reality, god knows what you'll choose in every given opportunity. Therefore, it's already pre-determined. You can never make a choice that he's not determined for you, and therefore, you'll never stray away from the path that he's planned for you to be in. That doesn't sound like free will to me. That sounds like slavery with the illusion of freedom and choice.

---------- Post added 24.06.2012 at 23:12 ----------

How does god make us nod?

By sending invisible, undetectable radio waves that create a need for the brain to nod, thereby starting the process of the brain sending neurons through the nervous system to our muscles in our neck.

 

[ZoSo]

It's not pre-determined at all! It doesn't mean he made the frickin choice! Can't you understand that? God is not the one making the choices, we make our own choices and god may or may not know beforehand. God knowing does not make it 'slavery'. If I knew what you are going to do tomorrow does that make you not have free choice? No, it's the same thing with god!

 

[Fred]

If I have free will, and I have complete freedom to make a choice of my own, then the only person who knows what I'll choose is me. No one else can know that. If someone else does, then it greatly diminishes the value of free will to the extent that it's no longer free but pre-determined.

We're going around in circles on this one

Its still you who chose your course of action, the fact that God knows what your going to do does not negate that. He gave us free will, and allowed us to choose our own courses of action, but him being omniscient means he already knows what course of action we are going to choose.

The debate here is whether omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. I do not believe they are.

 

[ZoSo]

By sending invisible, undetectable radio waves that create a need for the brain to nod, thereby starting the process of the brain sending neurons through the nervous system to our muscles in our neck.

Yes of course...

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

It's not pre-determined at all! It doesn't mean he made the frickin choice! Can't you understand that? God is not the one making the choices, we make our own choices and god may or may not know beforehand. God knowing does not make it 'slavery'. If I knew what you are going to do tomorrow does that make you not have free choice? No, it's the same thing with god!

God did not make the choice, but he engineered the situation in such a way that I'm presented with a number of choices, but of all those choices, I'm only gonna choose one of them. I can choose no other choice. I could weigh the pros and cons of the choices, the impact it will have, and in the end come to the same conclusion that god knows that I'll choose. I can only choose what he's already forseen me to choose. If I choose any other choice, then his knowledge of what I'll choose was wrong. Which means he's imperfect. But god, by claims and by definition, is perfect.

This severely undermines any concept of free will to me.

We're going around in circles on this one

Its still you who chose your course of action, the fact that God knows what your going to do does not negate that. He gave us free will, and allowed us to choose our own courses of action, but him being omniscient means he already knows what course of action we are going to choose.

The debate here is whether omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. I do not believe they are.

EXACTLY!!! If it was true free will, then god would not know what decision I'll make until I actually made the decision. If he already knows(and he does, because he's omniscient), then my decision is pre-determined. Then all the choices I had only serve to be an illusion.

I think omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive.

Yes of course...

Are you doubting your gods' ability to control your thoughts and actions through invisible radio waves?

 

[ZoSo]

God did not make the choice, but he engineered the situation in such a way that I'm presented with a number of choices, but of all those choices, I'm only gonna choose one of them. I can choose no other choice. I could weigh the pros and cons of the choices, the impact it will have, and in the end come to the same conclusion that god knows that I'll choose. I can only choose what he's already forseen me to choose. If I choose any other choice, then his knowledge of what I'll choose was wrong. Which means he's imperfect. But god, by claims and by definition, is perfect.

This severely undermines any concept of free will to me.

You are seriously talking out of your ass now. Even if there is no god as you believe, you're not going to have more/less choices e.g. going to the supermarket and choosing which cereal to buy.

That severely undermines your argument.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

You are seriously talking out of your ass now. Even if there is no god as you believe, you're not going to have more/less choices e.g. going to the supermarket and choosing which cereal to buy.

That severely undermines your argument.

Even if there are 5 types of cereal I can choose from, god knows which one I'll choose even before I know which one I'll choose. How can that in any way be classified as free?

If there is true freedom of choice, then no one can know what your choice is and what the consequence of your choice will be. But because god knows everything, the choice is already made and god knows what will happen in the future succeeding your choice. This is not free will. It's pre-determined will.

That's why I say that all this talk of god giving us free will is bullshit. If god gave us free will, then he cannot be omniscient. He will always be plagued by the uncertainty of what we'll choose.

 

[ZoSo]

Even if there are 5 types of cereal I can choose from, god knows which one I'll choose even before I know which one I'll choose. How can that in any way be classified as free?

If there is true freedom of choice, then no one can know what your choice is and what the consequence of your choice will be. But because god knows everything, the choice is already made and god knows what will happen in the future succeeding your choice. This is not free will. It's pre-determined will.

That's why I say that all this talk of god giving us free will is bullshit. If god gave us free will, then he cannot be omniscient. He will always be plagued by the uncertainty of what we'll choose.

I disagree and this is where we have a problem. Clearly there's no point debating this any longer because I doubt either of us will change our opinion on that statement.