Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (13 Viewers)

[Martin]

typical, really.

you chose not to answer the basic questions, to which you have no other alternative than what i presented only to come back and say they re my assumptions. rich.

once again, why dont you go out steal rape and get whatever your heart desires?
brainwashed? scared you might not be able to sleep at night?

It's your claim, for goodness sake. Without God we are immoral. So why am I so moral? It's your claim, not mine.

Why don't I go out stealing? I don't know. Maybe cause I'm scared of the law, like Ze said. Maybe I'm just not interested in that. Truth be told, I don't know. I don't understand myself through and through, I doubt anyone does. But if I don't believe in God, then your thesis falls.

Of course they're your assumptions. You just said there's no possible reason why anyone would want to better themselves if there is no god. That's an assumption unless we agree it's trivial. I don't, hence it's an assumption.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[GordoDeCentral]

i think i broke it down in my syllogism earlier, just thought we can both save each other time by me not going into detail of how that occurs, this loss fo morality. At any rate one works lives for a certain goal and once that gola is stripped of divine patronage and surveillance it ceases to make SENSE to be moral. starting from:

God doesnt exist( some certainty is needed here, teetering throws it off)
There's no after life
death is the end of it all
in the scheme of thins to die now or 20 years from now is equivalent
i can either work my whole life and gamble on getting certain golas(which dotn get further from base wants) or i can save myself the time and suffering and get them now
you make your choice

 

[Martin]

Oh, there's plenty of reasons to be moral. Let me give you some examples.

I'd rather live my life outside of jail than in jail.
By being moral and reach out to be people I can enjoy the company of people like your good self instead of being a complete loner.
By living among people and striving for goals in my life I can get respect for my achievements from other people.
By setting a good example on the forum as admin (in the past) I can encourage people to behave and thus enjoy good company.
By paying taxes today I can give up some of my money now so that my kid can go to a decent school.

The best part is all of these reasons are purely selfish. My own greed, my own craving for respect and company, those things determine my actions.

 

[Martin]

What's more, you're welcome to argue that God is the only reason you're moral. But people have been trying to argue this point as a general rule forever, and it's just not true. If you take Sweden, the statistics say 40-80% of people are atheists. So surely the country is awash in anarchy, right? Nope.

 

[Il Re]

the whole argument in these terms are more to do with, is mans law is corrupt? man will change law to suit himself, gods law is devine

 

[king Ale]

typical, really.

you chose not to answer the basic questions, to which you have no other alternative than what i presented only to come back and say they re my assumptions. rich.

once again, why dont you go out steal rape and get whatever your heart desires?
brainwashed? scared you might not be able to sleep at night?

I may say I don't steal, I don't kill, I don't rape because I don't like someone to steal something from me, to kill me or to rape me. As much as it hurts me I'd know it would hurt the other people. What does God have to to with this?

 

[Il Re]

What's more, you're welcome to argue that God is the only reason you're moral. But people have been trying to argue this point as a general rule forever, and it's just not true. If you take Sweden, the statistics say 40-80% of people are atheists. So surely the country is awash in anarchy, right? Nope.

what about england

 

[Martin]

what about england

Is that a question or a statement?

 

[Il Re]

Is that a question or a statement?

errm a little bit of both

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I may say I don't steal, I don't kill, I don't rape because I don't like someone to steal something from me, to kill me or to rape me. As much as it hurts me I'd know it would hurt the other people. What does God have to to with this?

but why should you care for the other? if you truly dont believe in anything what is the source of this care. the point is you re not sure tergiversating is more like it hence me describing the true atheist as someone who would not last a week: why put up with pain of any sort, just end it

 

[Martin]

hence me describing the true atheist as someone who would not last a week: why put up with pain of any sort, just end it

If anything, your rationale applies to religious people, not atheists. If you know there's going to be an afterlife, why not end it asap? An atheist, on the other hand, only has this one opportunity, so why would you throw that away? It makes no sense.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Oh, there's plenty of reasons to be moral. Let me give you some examples.

I'd rather live my life outside of jail than in jail.
By being moral and reach out to be people I can enjoy the company of people like your good self instead of being a complete loner.
By living among people and striving for goals in my life I can get respect for my achievements from other people.
By setting a good example on the forum as admin (in the past) I can encourage people to behave and thus enjoy good company.
By paying taxes today I can give up some of my money now so that my kid can go to a decent school.

The best part is all of these reasons are purely selfish. My own greed, my own craving for respect and company, those things determine my actions.

exactly so if you can get away with it then it;s fair game, thus canceling the "morality" of it. Moreover as a true atheist all these searches for esteem and foresight are shadowed by the weight of insignificance of it all.
i tell you people are confused whether it's sweden or england. They dont like a religion or aspects of it and suddenly pronounce themselves atheist. Hardly any of them truly are.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

If anything, your rationale applies to religious people, not atheists. If you know there's going to be an afterlife, why not end it asap? An atheist, on the other hand, only has this one opportunity, so why would you throw that away? It makes no sense.

actually i believe it's the opposite, why get old? get sick? show restraint and patience through tough times where it really doesnt matter. The best analogy is being thrown in the middle of the ocean a believer hopees and prays for his lord a "true" atheist wouldnt want to bother(once again assuming he really is atheist)

 

[Martin]

actually i believe it's the opposite, why get old? get sick? show restraint and patience through tough times where it really doesnt matter. The best analogy is being thrown in the middle of the ocean a believer hopees and prays for his lord a "true" atheist wouldnt want to bother(once again assuming he really is atheist)

But I'm not in the ocean. I'm in a warm house with a comfortable bed that I'm going to use quite soon, food and clothing, and a world of opportunities at my feet. And stimulating discussions with people I like spending time with almost every day.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

But I'm not in the ocean. I'm in a warm house with a comfortable bed that I'm going to use quite soon, food and clothing, and a world of opportunities at my feet. And stimulating discussions with people I like spending time with almost every day.

and i truly hope it continues that way for you as long as you re alive, but we both know that wont be the case and character is measured at the mouth of the beast.

 

[Martin]

exactly so if you can get away with it then it;s fair game, thus canceling the "morality" of it.

You don't get away with it, because people judge you on your actions. And if there's one thing almost all humans have in common it is the craving for respect and acceptance from other people. Do you honestly not have these motives in yourself?

Moreover as a true atheist all these searches for esteem and foresight are shadowed by the weight of insignificance of it all.

Let's start with the basics. Nothing is significant. We live in a universe that we don't understand at all, which from what we can tell is going to end one day, killing everything that we call "life". So what is the point? The point is that there is no point. There is no cause, no reason. And what if there was one? Maybe I would have thought it's a really dumb reason, a really worthless reason. I don't like people telling me what to do, so I would rather decide myself what my cause is.

i tell you people are confused whether it's sweden or england. They dont like a religion or aspects of it and suddenly pronounce themselves atheist. Hardly any of them truly are.

Excuse me, but what the hell do you know about what people are thinking?

 

[bianconero]

and i truly hope it continues that way for you as long as you re alive, but we both know that wont be the case and character is measured at the mouth of the beast.

Ah, you have left the financial bank for the left bank.

It'll be black roll necks and gitanes next.

 

[Martin]

and i truly hope it continues that way for you as long as you re alive, but we both know that wont be the case and character is measured at the mouth of the beast.

I have to start calling you god, because apparently you know everything.

I can live on this planet because I'm the product of thousands of years of evolution. You might be right that someone not able to cope getting exposed to our planet will off himself asap. But that's not me, my ancestors have made it and their genes have carried on and the result is a number of bad things can happen to me and I'll still want to live. It's the instinct of self preservation. There could come a time when the threshold is crossed, but the vast majority of people live out their lives naturally.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

i dont but when your actions go against what you re saying you re either a liar or confused, i like to give the benefit of doubt; so whether you give these godly attributes of sustenance and approval to a being you cant comprehend or to people you re doing the same thing: worshiping
A true atheist doesnt answer to any entity but his whims fir he understand that no relationship goal or person mean anything beyond the self and its satisfaction; and thats not assumption that is gotten purely on a logical development from the premise "there is no God"

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I have to start calling you god, because apparently you know everything.

I can live on this planet because I'm the product of thousands of years of evolution. You might be right that someone not able to cope getting exposed to our planet will off himself asap. But that's not me, my ancestors have made it and their genes have carried on and the result is a number of bad things can happen to me and I'll still want to live. It's the instinct of self preservation. There could come a time when the threshold is crossed, but the vast majority of people live out their lives naturally.

deride all you want, you cant say one thing then change it whenever it seems fit if there's no significance to anything who cares about ancestors living or resiliency why go through it? anyways shatter your world when you see fit. if you re really an atheist and you re holding yourself to any moral grounds then i feel bad for you