Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dinsdale
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Atheists are the ones constantly looking for answers because they have none, they just didn't see proofs. Religious people are satisfied with the answers they have
I think if any of you atheists was content with his belief of not believing, he would've just lived happily without a care in the world, but look for example how many of you are in this thread daily trying to prove a point to themselves before everyone else. You seem to be looking for a reason to believe more than anyone.
It's true no one has definite answers, both sides are looking for some, but atheists don't have a single reason to deny God's existence completely, and please don't start with the stupid line I read here before that we went to space and found nothing..., as if the creator of existence where earth and the whole milky way are a dot, would choose to live in the space above Earth.
but believers found enough reasons that support their beliefs, and they're good ones.
The answer to the question 'does god exist?' will never be known with proofs until the end of time, it's a matter of belief and nothing else
I think if any of you atheists was content with his belief of not believing, he would've just lived happily without a care in the world, but look for example how many of you are in this thread daily trying to prove a point to themselves before everyone else. You seem to be looking for a reason to believe more than anyone.
It's true no one has definite answers, both sides are looking for some, but atheists don't have a single reason to deny God's existence completely, and please don't start with the stupid line I read here before that we went to space and found nothing..., as if the creator of existence where earth and the whole milky way are a dot, would choose to live in the space above Earth.
but believers found enough reasons that support their beliefs, and they're good ones.
The answer to the question 'does god exist?' will never be known with proofs until the end of time, it's a matter of belief and nothing else
Man, how many times do we have to mention 'burden of proof'? If you make a claim, it's YOU who need to provide proof, not us. Plus, I've said it before that since the existence of god is the initial claim, it needs to be proved first before we even get to proving that god does not exist.
It's true that we are looking for the answers. We're just not gonna settle for the poor claim that 'god did everything'.
It's true that we are looking for the answers. We're just not gonna settle for the poor claim that 'god did everything'.
Seeking answers, following logic and looking to improve your understanding is a natural thing for humans to do, atheist or not. If it wasn't we'd still be living in forests, chasing wild boar, and dying in our forties. But when intelligent people get to religion they have to suddenly stop seeking answers and believe in the mystical. That's fine, but don't be hypocritical if people want to challenge that and say 'hold on a minute, why are your beliefs valid?'.
You mentioned how someone else's theory is stupid...you see the vicious circle here. I actually don't think theists are looking for answers to the existence of a god or where we came from, this is the whole point of a belief system. You do or you don't.
You mentioned how someone else's theory is stupid...you see the vicious circle here. I actually don't think theists are looking for answers to the existence of a god or where we came from, this is the whole point of a belief system. You do or you don't.
Prophets came with the words of God, people asked for proofs and prophets provided them, some believed some remained too proud
but nowadays you even doubt that prophets existed, so it's impossible for you to believe anything other than whats in your head
So you'd rather believe that we, the planet, the milky way and existence were created by themselves out of nothing than to believe a higher power created it?
Great introduction. But after that, I swear to God religion doesn't stop you from seeking answers!! Christianity in mid ages did, Muslims sometimes nowadays do, but those are PEOPLE with their stupid narrow minds, they represent themselves not the religion, judge Islam -for example- by it's book and prophet, not people speaking in its name.
and the book tells you to read, think and know for yourself. It doesn't say 1+1=2 believe it and shut up, no it says 1+1=2 and use your brain to find how it happened, this is the beauty of it
I didn't call someone else's theory stupid, but someone else claims that we believers think God lives in the sky right above, and that's stupid of him to say, frankly can't remember who it was.
Most people specially uneducated ones or ones with poor education would rather believe in something and shut off their brains for the rest of their lives living like animals eating sleeping and reproducing, those give the bad image of religions. You can't blame the religion for it.
but nowadays you even doubt that prophets existed, so it's impossible for you to believe anything other than whats in your head
So you'd rather believe that we, the planet, the milky way and existence were created by themselves out of nothing than to believe a higher power created it?
Great introduction. But after that, I swear to God religion doesn't stop you from seeking answers!! Christianity in mid ages did, Muslims sometimes nowadays do, but those are PEOPLE with their stupid narrow minds, they represent themselves not the religion, judge Islam -for example- by it's book and prophet, not people speaking in its name.
and the book tells you to read, think and know for yourself. It doesn't say 1+1=2 believe it and shut up, no it says 1+1=2 and use your brain to find how it happened, this is the beauty of it
I didn't call someone else's theory stupid, but someone else claims that we believers think God lives in the sky right above, and that's stupid of him to say, frankly can't remember who it was.
Most people specially uneducated ones or ones with poor education would rather believe in something and shut off their brains for the rest of their lives living like animals eating sleeping and reproducing, those give the bad image of religions. You can't blame the religion for it.
Why don't the prophets come now? Forget that, why doesn't god himself make an appearance to us now? As humanity has progressed, so has our demand for proof and the quality of proof we'll accept. Why can't the all powerful, all intelligent god see that people of the new age require more than a 2000 year old holy book to believe in him and actually make an appearance in front of us and put this whole discussion to end?
If prophets are the reason why you believe in Islam, then why don't you believe in Jadaiism or Hinduism? They meet the same criteria too. Why only Islam?
I'd rather believe that I do not know the answer to those questions and wait for modern men to come up with naturalistic explanations rather than believing supernatural explanations given 2000+ years ago.
If prophets are the reason why you believe in Islam, then why don't you believe in Jadaiism or Hinduism? They meet the same criteria too. Why only Islam?
I'd rather believe that I do not know the answer to those questions and wait for modern men to come up with naturalistic explanations rather than believing supernatural explanations given 2000+ years ago.
There were 25 major prophets and a lot more minor ones mostly were not mentioned, they came in various places and times, so 25 from Adam until Muhammad, how many years between the first and last? and you think 2000 years are too long? but anyway Muhammad was the last, and there was nothing else needed to add. But believe me sheik even if the last prophet appeared in our day, most people will not believe still, see what happened to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad -peace be upon them- with the miracles they had, I tell you some people have their brains shut and won't even think,
If God made an appearance to you then he would not be God would he?, but just a caesar or pharoah or an emperor
So you think Qur'an is out of date? do we need a new book?
and you know what, he will appear and bring this discussion and life itself to an end, but then it will be too late to change your mind, right? so until then it's a matter of choice and belief, you choose what you believe in and when we die we'll find the truth.
Actually I do believe in Judaism, Christianity as well as Islam, I believe they all came with the same message and the same book, but people corrupted the first two. But in religion and prophets to me Moses and Jesus are as great as Muhammad
but not hindusm and buddism because of major reasons.
If you want to talk about science then everything mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago is getting proven right by science everyday (I have proofs if you're interested), but the question of God's existence will NEVER be answered for sure until the end of life, so again sicence won't help in this one it's up to you only.
If God made an appearance to you then he would not be God would he?, but just a caesar or pharoah or an emperor
So you think Qur'an is out of date? do we need a new book?
and you know what, he will appear and bring this discussion and life itself to an end, but then it will be too late to change your mind, right? so until then it's a matter of choice and belief, you choose what you believe in and when we die we'll find the truth.
Actually I do believe in Judaism, Christianity as well as Islam, I believe they all came with the same message and the same book, but people corrupted the first two. But in religion and prophets to me Moses and Jesus are as great as Muhammad
but not hindusm and buddism because of major reasons.
If you want to talk about science then everything mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago is getting proven right by science everyday (I have proofs if you're interested), but the question of God's existence will NEVER be answered for sure until the end of life, so again sicence won't help in this one it's up to you only.
Yes, 2000 years are too long. Compared to how long I've lived or how long I will live, 2000 years is too long. Don't even get me started about 13.6 billion years.
But if he is truly god, then it's not gonna be difficult for him to change our minds, would it? He is afterall god. He made us. He created the universe and the laws of physics, DNA, the big bang, our conscience, our free will. Does something like a closed human mind really pose a serious threat to god?
Really?
No, he would still be god. He will be whatever he claims to be as long as he can prove his claims. Creator of man and this world? Then do it again in front of us and prove it. If he gives us irrefutable proof that he created us, then who can deny him?
A new book would be nice, yeah. God could incorporate all that humans know right now to give a much more believable account of rules and regulations to follow. Ones that will even make the unbeliever believe. "A new holy book for a new mankind". Sounds great. Do it!
Then why don't you pray to Jesus or Yahweh? Why don't you study these religions and defend then along with Islam? Don't you believe in their claim of heaven, hell or salvation?
What's wrong with Hinduism or Buddhism?
Then I shall not believe in them.
But if he is truly god, then it's not gonna be difficult for him to change our minds, would it? He is afterall god. He made us. He created the universe and the laws of physics, DNA, the big bang, our conscience, our free will. Does something like a closed human mind really pose a serious threat to god?
Really?
No, he would still be god. He will be whatever he claims to be as long as he can prove his claims. Creator of man and this world? Then do it again in front of us and prove it. If he gives us irrefutable proof that he created us, then who can deny him?
A new book would be nice, yeah. God could incorporate all that humans know right now to give a much more believable account of rules and regulations to follow. Ones that will even make the unbeliever believe. "A new holy book for a new mankind". Sounds great. Do it!
Then why don't you pray to Jesus or Yahweh? Why don't you study these religions and defend then along with Islam? Don't you believe in their claim of heaven, hell or salvation?
What's wrong with Hinduism or Buddhism?
Then I shall not believe in them.
Oh come on sheik what's the point of life if he could just make you do what he wants? he gave you a brain to choose what makes most sense to you
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. Quran 2:256
No if you could see him perform extraordinary actions (miracles) he would not be God, he would only be a higher being. Just like anyone with a cell phone in an African tribe, I bet people would worship him.
Come on, this isn't a joking matter please. There was the Jewish bible then it was edited by people and corrupted, then the Christian one and the same story, take the veil for women for example, it is in Judaism and Christianity, and all nuns cover their hair, so it means covering up is originally in the religion doesn't it? then howcome modern Jewish and Christian women don't do it and is not a rule in their churches? because people edited in the book. Then Muhammad was sent with Quran 1430 years ago which has never been corrupted or edited, with all the same values and messages in the other books as they were originally meant to be.
Why new book? there's absolutely no need for new book or prophet, back then life was much different and there was a need for a Prophet in every country if not city, but if everyone in the world now heard of prophets and no one is ignorant then it's done.
I don't pray to Muhammad, sheik
he's just a prophet, a human being with a message, not a God, neither is Jesus or Moses or John or any.
I pray to the same God of all of them.
I do read in Judaism and Christianity, and if compared to other religions or atheism I do defend them, the closest people to me after Muslims are them.
Hinduism and Buddism? they have a different God.
but I have to admit they were some of the nicest and kindest people I knew, some of them hated Indian Muslims though and all Pakistanis and often had fights after cricket games while I was watching (too boring for me honestly). An Indian Muslim family once told us that they're treated better in UK than India, is it true?
sorry for going off topic.
Anyway you'd think that we know a lot these days with modern science and all but the wisest I've read was this
As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it. Albert Einestein
And I think the more we know the more we realise how ignorant we are, I don't think science will find as many answers as the questions it brings, it's too beautiful.
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. Quran 2:256
No if you could see him perform extraordinary actions (miracles) he would not be God, he would only be a higher being. Just like anyone with a cell phone in an African tribe, I bet people would worship him.
Come on, this isn't a joking matter please. There was the Jewish bible then it was edited by people and corrupted, then the Christian one and the same story, take the veil for women for example, it is in Judaism and Christianity, and all nuns cover their hair, so it means covering up is originally in the religion doesn't it? then howcome modern Jewish and Christian women don't do it and is not a rule in their churches? because people edited in the book. Then Muhammad was sent with Quran 1430 years ago which has never been corrupted or edited, with all the same values and messages in the other books as they were originally meant to be.
Why new book? there's absolutely no need for new book or prophet, back then life was much different and there was a need for a Prophet in every country if not city, but if everyone in the world now heard of prophets and no one is ignorant then it's done.
I don't pray to Muhammad, sheik
he's just a prophet, a human being with a message, not a God, neither is Jesus or Moses or John or any.I pray to the same God of all of them.
I do read in Judaism and Christianity, and if compared to other religions or atheism I do defend them, the closest people to me after Muslims are them.
Hinduism and Buddism? they have a different God.
but I have to admit they were some of the nicest and kindest people I knew, some of them hated Indian Muslims though and all Pakistanis and often had fights after cricket games while I was watching (too boring for me honestly). An Indian Muslim family once told us that they're treated better in UK than India, is it true?
sorry for going off topic.
Anyway you'd think that we know a lot these days with modern science and all but the wisest I've read was this
As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it. Albert Einestein
And I think the more we know the more we realise how ignorant we are, I don't think science will find as many answers as the questions it brings, it's too beautiful.
I'm not saying he should use mind-control to make us do what he wants. What I meant is that if he is a god, then he can read our minds, and find the reason why we'd possibly be unaccepting of him, and then provide enough reason and evidence to convince us that he's a god. Convince, not just make us mindless zombies following his will.
If his motto is to make us believe him, then doing so through the means of a book written in a language that not all humans will communicate through is a very inefficient way. Even as a human, I can come up with better methods. He is either omnipotent, or he isn't. Judging by the results, I choose the latter. Thus, he's no god.
If he can defy the laws of physics and do stuff like walking on water, turning water into wine, turning people into a pillar of salt, making a human from dirt, a woman from a rib, parting seas, then trust me, he'd certainly be something MUCH more than a "higher being".
Unedited or uncorrupted, huh? Well so are the Vedas and Upanishads upon which Hinduism is based on. So the Hindu gods are equally plausible too. Why not believe in them or pray/worship to them? What if your god is the wrong god, and when you die, you're actually judged by the Hindu gods? Would you take that chance just because you were born into Islam?
Yes, sorry. I mean their respective gods, not their prophets. My point still stands though regarding this.
Different gods? So what? They are equally probable. Why are you atheistic towards Hinduism?
Buddha was a philosopher rather than a god. I don't think he ever claimed to be one. It's just his followers regarding him as one. But if you look at Buddhism and its tenets, doesn't seem bad or unbelievable. So why shun it?
What incentive is there for believing in Islam that you refuse to follow other religions or worship other gods?
I think the Hindu-Muslim hate in India is mostly historical. If you read up Indian history and about the partition, and about the wars fought between them, then you'll understand the hatred. Personally, I've tried my utmost to treat all people of all religions equally. I don't discriminate against people based on their religions, and have very good Muslim friends, even though I've met and interacted with very few of them in my life. Iceman being a prime example. We're both great friends.
I think the primary problem here is the perception of questions about the unknown(and unknowns themselves) as a negative thing. I believe that humans should not fear the unknown, but rather embrace it. We must be humble that we do not know everything, and should work towards understanding the unknown through natural means. No one said that the learning needs to end. It is a continuous process, and nature gives us a lot to study and learn about. We certainly know a lot more now than 50 or 100 years ago. And I bet my life that in another 50 years, we'll certainly know more than we do now. And all because of science. Not god. Not religion. Science. And with scientific discoveries, we'll actually have implementations of them. Not just some vague claims that are meant to reinforce your faith.
If his motto is to make us believe him, then doing so through the means of a book written in a language that not all humans will communicate through is a very inefficient way. Even as a human, I can come up with better methods. He is either omnipotent, or he isn't. Judging by the results, I choose the latter. Thus, he's no god.
If he can defy the laws of physics and do stuff like walking on water, turning water into wine, turning people into a pillar of salt, making a human from dirt, a woman from a rib, parting seas, then trust me, he'd certainly be something MUCH more than a "higher being".
Unedited or uncorrupted, huh? Well so are the Vedas and Upanishads upon which Hinduism is based on. So the Hindu gods are equally plausible too. Why not believe in them or pray/worship to them? What if your god is the wrong god, and when you die, you're actually judged by the Hindu gods? Would you take that chance just because you were born into Islam?
I don't pray to Muhammad, sheik he's just a prophet, a human being with a message, not a God, neither is Jesus or Moses or John or any.
I pray to the same God of all of them.
I do read in Judaism and Christianity, and if compared to other religions or atheism I do defend them, the closest people to me after Muslims are them.
he's just a prophet, a human being with a message, not a God, neither is Jesus or Moses or John or any.I pray to the same God of all of them.
I do read in Judaism and Christianity, and if compared to other religions or atheism I do defend them, the closest people to me after Muslims are them.
Different gods? So what? They are equally probable. Why are you atheistic towards Hinduism?
Buddha was a philosopher rather than a god. I don't think he ever claimed to be one. It's just his followers regarding him as one. But if you look at Buddhism and its tenets, doesn't seem bad or unbelievable. So why shun it?
What incentive is there for believing in Islam that you refuse to follow other religions or worship other gods?
I think the Hindu-Muslim hate in India is mostly historical. If you read up Indian history and about the partition, and about the wars fought between them, then you'll understand the hatred. Personally, I've tried my utmost to treat all people of all religions equally. I don't discriminate against people based on their religions, and have very good Muslim friends, even though I've met and interacted with very few of them in my life. Iceman being a prime example. We're both great friends.
I think the primary problem here is the perception of questions about the unknown(and unknowns themselves) as a negative thing. I believe that humans should not fear the unknown, but rather embrace it. We must be humble that we do not know everything, and should work towards understanding the unknown through natural means. No one said that the learning needs to end. It is a continuous process, and nature gives us a lot to study and learn about. We certainly know a lot more now than 50 or 100 years ago. And I bet my life that in another 50 years, we'll certainly know more than we do now. And all because of science. Not god. Not religion. Science. And with scientific discoveries, we'll actually have implementations of them. Not just some vague claims that are meant to reinforce your faith.