Documentary-thread (3 Viewers)

[Byrone]

I watched that shit regulary, on nationalistic Serb tv(BN) in Bosnia, its hilarious. They are repeating it over and over again, hoping that Goebbels tactic of repating a lie 1000 times will become the truth.

Negation of genocide in Srebrenica etc etc, it garbage of the same group of people who supported and did the killings, its disgusting.

Yeah you can see the completely different perspective as it goes on to highlight what croatia did with nazi germany & so forth. Both documentaries are biased in their own way but, yugoslavia the avoidable war is way off the charts.

 

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[Zé Tahir]

Have you seen, Yugoslavia the avoidable war?

The death of yugoslavia seems to be very anti Serb & then you look at yugoslavia the avoidable war which gives more insight on american & german involvement. I suppose it's a matter of perspective as to which one is better but you should definitely check it out.

I'll have it to check it out. I'm binge watching and reading everything Yugoslavia these days.

I saw The Weight of Chains (need to finish watching it) which is definitely Serb biased. I think the answers lie somewhere in the middle of what both the West is trying to convince us of and what the Serbs want us to believe. My understanding is that the West actively set out to break up Yugoslavia and their means to do so played on ancient ethnic and religious tensions that Tito managed to control. Some of the documents I've seen were clearly laid out to encourage break-away states. Western media would love for us to believe it was all Serb "aggression" but atrocities were created by all sides, no one can honestly say they didn't commit war crimes. In that regard they should all own up to them or there's no moving forward. That being said it's obvious that from the get-go Belgrade had the most to lose since the other states were the ones that stood to benefit from seceding (aid, loans, etc.) so people like Milosevic took the bait and fell into the trap laid out. I think it's sad how the state has been carved up and continuous to be.

I could be wrong, I'd love for the Balkan members to weigh in...those who can be objective.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

@Alen
@Nzoric

 

[Zé Tahir]

Thanks for the bat signal

 

[GordoDeCentral]

your captivating intro up there piqued my interest

 

[Zé Tahir]

Well done Yugos...you guys saw the question and avoided this thread like the plague I think I would have done the same if it was a Kashmir question

 

[GordoDeCentral]

@Alen @Nzoric

 

[swag]

Saw Particle Fever last night. Good flick.

It's a bit personal, having worked at Stanford on a high-energy physics accelerator a number of years ago -- I know a few of the people in it and have experienced a bit of the story first-hand in different contexts. It's accurate to the cause and a bit of what I was exposed to.

But as a movie about scientific discovery, about theorists and experimentalists, and what it takes to test these hypotheses, I thought the doc was also executed well as a bit of storytelling. My communications major wife even found it to be quite good.

 

[Nzoric]

I watched that shit regulary, on nationalistic Serb tv(BN) in Bosnia, its hilarious. They are repeating it over and over again, hoping that Goebbels tactic of repating a lie 1000 times will become the truth.

Negation of genocide in Srebrenica etc etc, it garbage of the same group of people who supported and did the killings, its disgusting.

Negating the "genocide" in Srebrenica is the only right thing to do, as it simply doesnt qualify as genocide.

There's a remarkable difference between that and actually supporting what happened in Srebrenica.

All sides are guilty of repeating a lie until it becomes the truth, if I remember correctly Naser Oric wad celebrated when he returned to Sarajevo. It's funny when people point with their left hand and cry "fascist" while saluting with the right, just to follow your analogy there.

 

[am0110]

Negating the "genocide" in Srebrenica is the only right thing to do, as it simply doesnt qualify as genocide.

There's a remarkable difference between that and actually supporting what happened in Srebrenica.

All sides are guilty of repeating a lie until it becomes the truth, if I remember correctly Naser Oric wad celebrated when he returned to Sarajevo. It's funny when people point with their left hand and cry "fascist" while saluting with the right, just to follow your analogy there.

Well you just certified what I always tought of you, you are a fascist.
I know what happened there because I was myself the victim of ethnic cleansing and fled that part of the country.
Orić? That guy was acquited by the Hague tribunal but for a straight up fascist proper tribunal verdicts are not good enough

And to end it... what happend there .. this what happen .. organized killings of young men just beacuse they happen to be Bosniaks.
For the other parts you need to be over 18 but for when you are fascist like you, you can imagine in your head.

 

[Hængebøffer]

Weed need the UN peace corps

 

[Nzoric]

Well you just certified what I always tought of you, you are a fascist.
I know what happened there because I was myself the victim of ethnic cleansing and fled that part of the country.
Orić? That guy was acquited by the Hague tribunal but for a straight up fascist proper tribunal verdicts are not good enough

And to end it... what happend there .. this what happen .. organized killings of young men just beacuse they happen to be Bosniaks.
For the other parts you need to be over 18 but for when you are fascist like you, you can imagine in your head.

Illiteracy is the key to extremism. So I'm a fascist (wat) because you do not understand what 'genocide' means. I refuse to get dragged into this with you, as you are way too emotional and your argument is suffering from exactly that.

Oh, and posting youtube videos of crimes in the Balkans? What - are we going to sit here and try to outvictim each other? Get a grip and stop watching those videos, why would you watch barbarians slaughtering civilians of any kind? Oh, and you might've fled that part of the country but my parents had to flee Sarajevo exactly because of their surname, so where does that leave us on the victim scale? This rhetoric needs to stop otherwise there'll never be (relative) peace there.

Last and not least, for anyone who has followed the Hague tribunal and the transcripts from the different rulings pretty much agree that it has been a farce - and the way it has been dealt with is exactly why tensions still persist in Bosnia. Collective blame has been assigned to a single ethnicity in a civil war which consisted of three sides. The Bosniaks (whatever the fuck that is) definitely got the worst of it, but it's remarkable how the 7,500 civilian serb casualties are almost totally unaccounted for when it comes to Hague tribunal rulings.

I'm not acquiting any of the Serbs who have received sentences in Hauge - I'm calling for some perspective when it comes to debating this conflict and I'm calling for all the responsible people to receive their sentences, which has not happened. If you're not ready to introduce this perspective when it comes to debating this conflict we have absolutely no ground for continuing this conversation. You'll call me a cetnik and I'll shrug off all of your hateful and misinformed arguments.

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Well done Yugos...you guys saw the question and avoided this thread like the plague I think I would have done the same if it was a Kashmir question

That's because the question is almost impossible to answer, especially if you (I doubt you have and I'm positively sure that am0110 does not) do not know the history of the Balkans and the circumstances which helped shape the war in Bosnia. If you get this down, you will have a much easier time distinguishing the bullshit from something that resembles the truth. I suggest you read The Balkans by Micha Glenny ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Balkans-Nationalism-Powers-1804-1999/dp/0140233776 ) . I didn't read the chapters regarding the war in Bosnia as I was hard pressed with exams, but I can definitely recommend the rest of the book.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

how is the systematic killing/expulsion of a certain ethnic group not considered genocide?

 

[Hængebøffer]

Flashback to Turk.

 

[Nzoric]

how is the systematic killing/expulsion of a certain ethnic group not considered genocide?

It's more complicated than that, it wasn't a random attack by Serb forces on a Muslim(Bosniak whatever you want to call it) city. First of all it was supposed to be a zone under the control of the Dutch peacekeeping forces, but still Bosniak attacks led by Naser Oric persisted along with weapon trafficking through different NGO's who were operating there. Serb population was getting hit hard by this tactic in surrounding villages which is why Mladic decided to attack the town in the first place.

Furthermore - like almost everything else related to the war in Bosnia it's almost impossible to find out what exactly happened. Women and children were transported to Sarajevo while - the Serb side insists - the only executions which took place were of Bosniak soldiers. Furthermore, the death toll has been made up several times and always with a lacking methodology behind it - I can't remember the exact number but there are several instances of people proclaimed dead as part of the genocide voting in Western Europe and other places where they actually fled to.

The explanation above is just an example of how it can be spun in a completely different direction. Does a war crime justify a war crime? Definitely not.

 

[am0110]

Illiteracy is the key to extremism. So I'm a fascist (wat) because you do not understand what 'genocide' means. I refuse to get dragged into this with you, as you are way too emotional and your argument is suffering from exactly that.

Oh, and posting youtube videos of crimes in the Balkans? What - are we going to sit here and try to outvictim each other? Get a grip and stop watching those videos, why would you watch barbarians slaughtering civilians of any kind? Oh, and you might've fled that part of the country but my parents had to flee Sarajevo exactly because of their surname, so where does that leave us on the victim scale? This rhetoric needs to stop otherwise there'll never be (relative) peace there.

Last and not least, for anyone who has followed the Hague tribunal and the transcripts from the different rulings pretty much agree that it has been a farce - and the way it has been dealt with is exactly why tensions still persist in Bosnia. Collective blame has been assigned to a single ethnicity in a civil war which consisted of three sides. The Bosniaks (whatever the $#@! that is) definitely got the worst of it, but it's remarkable how the 7,500 civilian serb casualties are almost totally unaccounted for when it comes to Hague tribunal rulings.

I'm not acquiting any of the Serbs who have received sentences in Hauge - I'm calling for some perspective when it comes to debating this conflict and I'm calling for all the responsible people to receive their sentences, which has not happened. If you're not ready to introduce this perspective when it comes to debating this conflict we have absolutely no ground for continuing this conversation. You'll call me a cetnik and I'll shrug off all of your hateful and misinformed arguments.

- - - Updated - - -



That's because the question is almost impossible to answer, especially if you (I doubt you have and I'm positively sure that am0110 does not) do not know the history of the Balkans and the circumstances which helped shape the war in Bosnia. If you get this down, you will have a much easier time distinguishing the bull$#@! from something that resembles the truth. I suggest you read The Balkans by Micha Glenny ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Balkans-Nationalism-Powers-1804-1999/dp/0140233776 ) . I didn't read the chapters regarding the war in Bosnia as I was hard pressed with exams, but I can definitely recommend the rest of the book.

So Hague tribunal definition of genocide in not good enough for you?
Perspective?
I will give you one, my mother month before we fled our town was "warned" that " your Bajram(religious holiday) will be bloody", that was told to her by her Serb co workers while joking.She did not believe that and month after we had to leave the town, luckly for us, while others that stayed there ended up killed or in prison camps, killed and imprisoned by their own friends who new things will happen and even joke about it.
So when you new stuff will happen that is planned and in the end it was executed in masses, sorry but that is text book genocide for you verified by Hague tribunal in it verdicts for various Bosnian Serb generals. Verified by the whole world but how can you persuade people like you? You just cant.




"The Bosniaks (whatever the $#@! that is)"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks
Great, negating an existence of the whole people, I told you, you are fascist.
Those who killed that young men on that video negated existence of the Bosnian people and thus tried to exterminated them. Well I am glad that you cleared here what kind of human being are you.

 

[Nzoric]

So Hague tribunal definition of genocide in not good enough for you?
Perspective?
I will give you one, my mother month before we fled our town was "warned" that " your Bajram(religious holiday) will be bloody", that was told to her by her Serb co workers while joking.She did not believe that and month after we had to leave the town, luckly for us, while others that stayed there ended up killed or in prison camps, killed and imprisoned by their own friends who new things will happen and even joke about it.
So when you new stuff will happen that is planned and in the end it was executed in masses, sorry but that is text book genocide for you verified by Hague tribunal in it verdicts for various Bosnian Serb generals. Verified by the whole world but how can you persuade people like you? You just cant.

Listen, I'm terribly sorry for what happened to you as I am for every innocent person who suffered in that war. It's still not a genocide and the Hague tribunal has been everything but impartial in the way it has applied it's definitions of genocide and rulings.

So Srebrenica is a genocide, but Operation Storm isn't? Only in the Hague Tribunal.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Watching " an American mosque" about a mosque in the us that was burned down and the peaceful reaction of the Muslims

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It's more complicated than that, it wasn't a random attack by Serb forces on a Muslim(Bosniak whatever you want to call it) city. First of all it was supposed to be a zone under the control of the Dutch peacekeeping forces, but still Bosniak attacks led by Naser Oric persisted along with weapon trafficking through different NGO's who were operating there. Serb population was getting hit hard by this tactic in surrounding villages which is why Mladic decided to attack the town in the first place.

Furthermore - like almost everything else related to the war in Bosnia it's almost impossible to find out what exactly happened. Women and children were transported to Sarajevo while - the Serb side insists - the only executions which took place were of Bosniak soldiers. Furthermore, the death toll has been made up several times and always with a lacking methodology behind it - I can't remember the exact number but there are several instances of people proclaimed dead as part of the genocide voting in Western Europe and other places where they actually fled to.

resistance to occupying forces? shocking you are sounding more like a sympathizer than a historian my friend. I am sure you know a lot more than me, but evidence(the corpses) and motive(reshaping of borders in a muslim majority area) are kinda hard to debunk.

 

[Alen]

Well done Yugos...you guys saw the question and avoided this thread like the plague I think I would have done the same if it was a Kashmir question

You know those times when you know that you forgot to do something but you can't remember what it was? Well this was it. I saw the question just before leaving for work, with an intention to answer later. Then I forgot about it.

Churchill said that the Balkans produce more history than they can consume. It's not that often to find people who understand and get along with each other so well as the ex-Yus, yet capable to hate each other and fight each other the next day. Yugoslavia's story begins long before the federation was created. I wont go into the panslavic movement, the struggle to become free from the Habsburgs or the Ottomans, the different influences from the west and the orient in Yugoslavia, the huge influence the Great European powers had in the Balkans, where their interests interfered. Lets just say that the Powers never solve a question completely without leaving explosive mines to activate later. But it has to be known that Yugoslavia wasn't your normal behind the iron curtain country. It wasn't part of the Warsaw Pact, nor NATO. While for every other country it was well known whose influence prevailed, in Yugoslavia Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill agreed on 50-50. Even if the Communist party led the country, it was always 50-50. Yugoslavia was that border between west and east. We shared a border with Italy, Austria and Greece (EU, NATO), but also with Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary or Albania (controlled by the Soviets). Our passport was more or less like the Swiss one and we were the only "communists" who could freely travel to the west. Neither the USSR nor the West could allow this country to completely fall in the hands of the others. And they all gave us money, without asking us to pay back. Well, at least not at that moment.

But once the Berlin wall fell, there was no need for Yugoslavia. Why have this strategically excellent placed country, if tomorrow (being Slavic), when Russia becomes strong again, Yugoslavia can fall in Russian hands? The west (Germany, to be exact) found it easier to co-opt Yugoslavian territories into their sphere of influence, but that was hard to achieve without breaking up Yugoslavia and keeping the Russian allies (Serbia and Montenegro) out of Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia. The Russians were weak, but the KGB was still working on the field despite the domestic problems. Serbia was their historical ally and protege and their influence still prevailed there. Even if Yugoslavia breaks up, they wanted a strong an big enough Serbia to get more territories (Bosnia, Macedonia).

That's the bigger picture. The smaller one is that during the economic crisis the federal leaders didn't want to see that their visions of unity are undesirable for huge parts of their federation. +40% of the Yugoslav GDP was due to Slovenia. They didn't want to share anymore in 6 parts. They wanted out now.

After that it was rather easy. For decades people had money, and they now had none with the crisis. In such times wrong people get the power or come close to the powerful. People were angry enough to do anything and they started doing everything they couldn't even imagine doing before. Neither side will admit to war crimes, but all of them did them equally, or were capable of doing them equally if they had the arms. In any case, the mines were already set almost a century ago, and it was time to activate them now. They made it look like it's about religion or ethnicity, but the hell it was.