Do you believe in God (9 Viewers)

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++




The problem with these proprietary protocols is that the owners decide what's going to happen with them and who can access their networks. Msn was available to Linux users and others for a couple of years before M$ decided all the alternative clients people used to connect to msn would now have to pay for that service and M$ shut them out by "upgrading" the protocol to msn6 and forcing and upgrade on all its users (of Msn Messenger). Not surprisingly, maintainers of the alternative clients, like gaim and trillian, quickly cracked the code and msn is once again open to all. But how long will it last?

But it's not just msn. Aol did something like that with aim, I don't know about yahoo im but apparently icq is the only protocol that has a "nice" company backing it.

The open source alternative is jabber. There are tons of clients for it and it has a lot (if not all) of the features of other "messengers". www.jabber.org

But the reason I hate msn isn't what I already mention, at least not my no1 reason. I always hated msn because they were able to flush the market with no effort at all. See a few years ago, "everyone" was using icq, it was packed with features and it had been around for years. Then M$ decide they want to take over that market with msn, which was and is VASTLY inferior to icq. Since they control the OS market, all they had to do is plug it into windows and make the sucker startup everytime you start windows, it's even hard to kill if you wanna get rid of it. And from that moment on, people just started using it because it was there, suddenly msn is all over the place. THAT is what monopoly does.

Going off topic, are we?

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Martin]

Gray will certainly correcy my wording but
"lead me not into temptation"

 

[Darin]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
my faith when it comes to god became stronger when -

juve was drawing 0-0 with barca, and during halftime i got so panicky that i went to perform my hajat prayer (its a prayer where you pray so that ur wish is granted) and *surprise* i prayed for juve to go through the semis. when i went down to catch the 2nd half, on the tv it wrote: Barca 0 - 1 Juventus

second, everytime i pray, i pray that i get to see juve someday, and how i wish i could see the juve-milan final. i come from an average family, and the costs of going to uk and stuff needs a shitload of money. well, when i woke up the day before the actual match, my aunt calls and says, 'i have tickets to the final.'

well, that, for me, is a sign that there is a god

i prayed salat al haja in lailat al qadar n i asked god 2 let juve win the CL

 

[Martin]

Don't mean to be negative but does that make sense? Isn't God supposed to be just? Why should he do you any favors? And even if he did, how do you know there aren't Barcelona or Milan fans praying for their teams too?

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
my faith when it comes to god became stronger when -

juve was drawing 0-0 with barca, and during halftime i got so panicky that i went to perform my hajat prayer (its a prayer where you pray so that ur wish is granted) and *surprise* i prayed for juve to go through the semis. when i went down to catch the 2nd half, on the tv it wrote: Barca 0 - 1 Juventus

:LOL: That's cute salilah

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++
Gray will certainly correcy my wording but
"lead me not into temptation"

I wasn't going to, but u made me do it!

Lead us not into temptation

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by HWIENIAWSKI ] ++
Order: What are the chances of things working out this way?

When air pushes out against water, forming a bubble, it creates a perfect sphere. Why? Because this is the most energy-efficient shape for it. Order occurs because it is the most stable possibility.

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++
Yes, me too. But religious people believe that god created both {humans and the world}, hence he's not perfect.

Ignorant people who take the Bible word for word assume that this is so, but evolution is a near-certainty, so I believe that if a God created the Universe, it was left to its own devices. Life was a likelyhood which arose on Earth, and we emerged hundreds of millions of years later. There is no indication in my mind that God is steering the whole thing (unless the Big Bang was one hell of a trick shot from God! ), but rather that life is being left take its own course.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
The common trend i see with these responses is that they all rely on God being confined by human abilities and limitations.

Fli, why should (even a theoretical) God be limited to the confines of physical presence and time?

...Sorry, I knew i'd get carried away as soon as I saw the thread title. :embarass:

This is a variation on my earlier point - we assume that since eveerything we know, see or extrapolate has an origin, God too must come from somewhere. But God isn't part of our universe. God is beyond it, and our physical laws are not applicable.

++ [ originally posted by Kaliman ] ++
God made us perfect? Why do we have an appendix then?

Evolution. The appendix was involved in the digestion of grass. We no longer eat grass, so the appendix is slowly shrinking over tens of thousands of years of evolution eventually, it will be gone.

 

[Zlatan]

Jesus: Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone
*stone thrown*
Jesus: Mom, didnt I ask you to stay home this time?

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
Ignorant people who take the Bible word for word assume that this is so, but evolution is a near-certainty, so I believe that if a God created the Universe, it was left to its own devices. Life was a likelyhood which arose on Earth, and we emerged hundreds of millions of years later. There is no indication in my mind that God is steering the whole thing (unless the Big Bang was one hell of a trick shot from God! ), but rather that life is being left take its own course.

Actually, God is in control of all things. He's not a clockwork God that has wind-up toys.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
I'll never understand the situation in Northern Ireland, it's just a disgrace to me. :undecide:

...God is love, God loves, and God loves love.

I'll refer to the first part later in this post, after I get to someone else's attempt to answer you. As for God being love, etc., that's an assumption, made by humans. Humans are, I think we can all agree, flawed beings.

++ [ originally posted by Matto ] ++

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the Northern Ireland issue is about more than just religion. Britain is a mostly protestant nation, Ireland a catholic one. Northern Ireland has about an equal division of the two religions amongst its population.

Now this is where the problems start: the catholics in NI want their nation to join Ireland so the island will be united again. The protestants fear they will be oppressed in such an Irish Superstate and will never allow NI to leave the United Kingdom.

Through the decades, the two different groups have started to 'hate' each other, including their seperate religions.

But still the Northern Ireland issue is more about the nation than about religion if I recall correctly.

This is a pretty good summary. Erik, you have a good grasp of the situation :thumb:

Basically, Ireland converted to Catholocism in the 700s, England invaded in 1179, and converted to Protestantism under Henry VIII during the Reformation in the middle ages. Under a decendant of his, Ulster was "planted" with English and Scottish settlers (all Protestants), forcing a lot of the Catholic locals off their land. For the centuries after that, Ulster formed a stronghold of Britain, and when Ireland won the right to be a free state in 1920, the North exerted enough political influence that the terms of our independance excluded the North from the Irish Free State (what we refer to as partition). Catholics were discriminated under British rule, very severely up to the 1820s when a Catholic lawer called O'Connell campaigned to have the Penal Laws (which forbade Catholics from a few things, like saying mass or owning land for example). After Ulster was partitioned in the 1920s, the south was 98% Catholic, and the North was somthing like 60% Protestant.

Catholics, who were mainly Republican (want an Irish Republic), were discriminated against by the mainly Protestant Unionists until the civil rights campaigns of the 1960s. Sections of both communities believe in violence to further their goals: the Republicans have the IRA, an organisation with its roots in the Irish war of independance, and whose history overlaps with that of the main political party in the south (a link neither is proud of), and the Unionists have the UDA and a bunch of other, smaller organisations, who have their roots in the 1890s when the north threatened civil war if Ireland was granted Home Rule (we were pursuing a political means of independance at the time).

The two sides are now polarised by history, and taught ot hate eachother by their parents. It's a hatred as deep as any in the world, and religion is only one element of it.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
As for God being love, etc., that's an assumption, made by humans. Humans are, I think we can all agree, flawed beings.

Well if God loves such people as us (John 3:16 ), i think it's pretty safe to assume that God is love.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
From an evolutionary standpoint, why would self-awareness develop in only one species? Why wouldn't other animals develop a similar intelligence, assuming that it is a trait which is beneficial to survival?

The evolution of man is complicated and not fully understood, but here goes:

7.5 million years ago, there was a bit of a geological tiff and a big chunk of Africa got bunped around. There's a huge spine of mountains and valleys running down Africa's East side from Etheopia down in a kind of south-southwest direction.

This broke up the forest cover, making it much more patchwork. To maintain its apetite, one branch of the ape family developed bipedalism (walking on two legs only), which is a much more energy-efficient form of movement for apes. Not needing the arms for support any more permitted the shortening of the arms (a chimp's arms gow down to its knees, ours barely past our waist).

A further cooling of the climate about 2.5 million years ago (same time as modern Antartic continent moved into place) resulted in even sparser vegitation. Homo Habilis developed an omnivorous diet, and the extra energy (meat is a very rich source of food) permitted the development of the brain. Hunting without natural claws or sharp teeth encouraged tool-making and all this spurred the brain on to larger and larger proportions.

The modern human brain is so big that we are born far too early. We spend the first year of our lives in the same state as an unborn - virtually helpless. We grow to full size in a teenage growth spurt because of this. Basically, our whole pattern of growth changed because our brains are too big.

I don't think i explained that too well, so if anyone has a question, fire away.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
...Finally, the third piece of evidence which has always fascinated me is the remarkable consistency of God's Word.

Why does the word of God not remain identical between religions then? Some religions are polytheist, so how can you explain that. And the writers of each book of the bible would not only be familiar with the teachings of the previous books, but they all came from the Israeli civilisation, so their cultures were quite similar.

 

[gray]

I'll never believe we came from apes/chimps, so i shan't bother addressing the first part.

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++

Why does the word of God not remain identical between religions then? Some religions are polytheist, so how can you explain that. And the writers of each book of the bible would not only be familiar with the teachings of the previous books, but they all came from the Israeli civilisation, so their cultures were quite similar.

Because the other religions aren't taken from the Bible

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
If we inherit sin from Adam, then Jesus must have inherited it since he was a descendant of Adam and was like us in all things. But since He did not inherit it, we don't inherit it either. ...Guilt is not inherited.

We do inherit it according to Catholic dogma. We are washed of it during baptism. Jesus was born without it because of the Virgin birth. Or so I was taught as a youngster by an accredited religion teacher.

I agree, I don't know why they shouldn't marry... it leads them to do other things like go smoking and drinking all the time... and they're only human. That's why all these scandals happen, and it's sad, really.

There are suggestions that some of the apostles were married, and even one quite controvertiat one that Jesus himself was married. The vow of celebasy is a dated, stupid rule. It should be removed from the teachings of the church.

Very interesting Serge. Too much Dogma?

As you say. Have you seen that film too? :LOL:

++ [ originally posted by Alex ] ++
btw msn is evil people. just thought I'd let you know

Ah, computers... religion for nerds. :geek:

 

[Torkel]

I am an atheist, and I believe that sooner or later religion will disappear, more or less completely.

I must say that some religious standpoints to me are baffling. For example, it's incredible to hear that you don't believe that we came from apes/chimps Gray.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Actually, God is in control of all things. He's not a clockwork God that has wind-up toys.

One of the things we see in physics is an enormous level of clockwork, but taken to a level of complexity that is infinately beyond our grasp. That is a sign of God if ever I saw one.

When you kick a football, its trajectory can be calculated in advance. All you need are things like the force you applied, the elasticity of the ball, the wind resistance, acceleration due to gravity, the mass of the ball, and the terrain over which it's travelling. That's clockwork. To claim that the ball falls because God decides it is absurd - God created a universe which is built on physical rules, which negate the need for direct control.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Well if God loves such people as us (John 3:16 ), i think it's pretty safe to assume that God is love.

John 3:16 was written by a bloke. A bloke with the same name as me, as it happens. He could be totally wrong.

Then again, he could be totally right! I don't like to assume that a man is always right, especially if I don't know him.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
I'll never believe we came from apes/chimps, so i shan't bother addressing the first part.

The evidence is there in the fossil record. I doubt God planted it as some kind of prank. Honestly, I don't understand the mind of someone who can dismiss scientific evidance, but will take as absolutely the word of a few unfamiliar men who wrote a book a few centuries back.

Because the other religions aren't taken from the Bible

What tells you that the Bible is right? Your religion is 99.999% likely determined by your parents religion. If your parents happen to be Hindu (Hindi?), you'd be Hindu too. Then you might be telling me another story.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
When you kick a football, its trajectory can be calculated in advance. All you need are things like the force you applied, the elasticity of the ball, the wind resistance, acceleration due to gravity, the mass of the ball, and the terrain over which it's travelling. That's clockwork. To claim that the ball falls because God decides it is absurd - God created a universe which is built on physical rules, which negate the need for direct control.

That's quite an assumption to make. God is consistent, and his character is consistent, so perhaps the 'laws' of gravity and physics are just our analysis of the perfectly consistent way that he controls things.

We can't perfectly judge all those things, because physics calculations negate too many factors. We haven't got it all figured out the way God has.

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
John 3:16 was written by a bloke. A bloke with the same name as me, as it happens. He could be totally wrong.

God has more control over the world than to let a crazy bloke go about writing all this stuff and proclaiming it as the Word of God, and then let those fraudulent words be passed through history.

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
The evidence is there in the fossil record. I doubt God planted it as some kind of prank. Honestly, I don't understand the mind of someone who can dismiss scientific evidance, but will take as absolutely the word of a few unfamiliar men who wrote a book a few centuries back.

There's hardly substantial fossil records to prove anything. One of the most "revolutionary discoveries in human evolution" was a shin bone that they found. From that shine bone, they drew a picture of a dude and said "hey, that's your great great great great great..........grandfather"

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
What tells you that the Bible is right? Your religion is 99.999% likely determined by your parents religion. If your parents happen to be Hindu (Hindi?), you'd be Hindu too. Then you might be telling me another story.

Be that as it may, what's the significance of this?

 

[mikhail]

Not so deep we need to read it all twice Gray.

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
That's quite an assumption to make. God is consistent, and his character is consistent, so perhaps the 'laws' of gravity and physics are just our analysis of the perfectly consistent way that he controls things.

We can't perfectly judge all those things, because physics calculations negate too many factors. We haven't got it all figured out the way God has.

We each seem to be assuming something here:
Me, I'm assuming that God created a universe which worked on certain rules. Physics is basically the exploration of those rules. To me this seems an elegant solution.

You are assuming that God didn't just set a system in motion, he merely created all things, and now steers them as he wills.

To me, your assumption seems a brute force solution, both unnecessary and also contradictory. If God controls everything like that, why does he let a child fall from a cliff, or let a rush of blood to someone's head cause a war? And the second suggests that if God controls everything in the minutitude, he controlls us absolutely, i.e. we have no free will.

God has more control over the world than to let a crazy bloke go about writing all this stuff and proclaiming it as the Word of God, and then let those fraudulent words be passed through history.

He's let far worse things happen. You can pick up a copy of "Mein Kampf" in your local library, for instance.

There's hardly substantial fossil records to prove anything. One of the most "revolutionary discoveries in human evolution" was a shin bone that they found. From that shine bone, they drew a picture of a dude and said "hey, that's your great great great great great..........grandfather"

Yes, the fossil record is spotty at best, but skulls and whole skeletons have been found, and these can be quite illuminating.

Be that as it may, what's the significance of this?

The point I was trying to get across is that you shouoldn't get hung up on the Bible. It may be the best source of the Word of God we have, or it may not. We believe it is because we are taught froma young age that it is, and for no other reason.

Islam teaches that Jesus was only a prophit, and not the Saviour. I can argue against that on the basis that Islam was created from Christianity some 800 years after Christ, so their perceptive is based on the judgement of Muhammed. One man. One, flawed man.

I have no analogous arguement against Hindi teachings, or Buddism, or a lot of other things.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
Not so deep we need to read it all twice Gray.

Silly forum bug :groan:

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
To me, your assumption seems a brute force solution, both unnecessary and also contradictory. If God controls everything like that, why does he let a child fall from a cliff, or let a rush of blood to someone's head cause a war? And the second suggests that if God controls everything in the minutitude, he controlls us absolutely, i.e. we have no free will.

If anything, a child falling from a cliff or people starting wars comes from free will, does it not?

God lets that happen because we have free will. Things like that happen in this world because of the presence of sin. I think the Simpsons episode where Homer and Marge are Adam and Eve does well to illustrate the state of mankind before sin entered the world.

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
He's let far worse things happen. You can pick up a copy of "Mein Kampf" in your local library, for instance.

That's not a disaster, because everyone knows it was written by a madman. A disaster would be if it was distributed as a biography of Jesus .

I've read some of it because i thought it'd be really interesting, but it's actually quite boring.

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
Yes, the fossil record is spotty at best, but skulls and whole skeletons have been found, and these can be quite illuminating.

That's not true AFAIK, whole skeletons haven't been found.

They might have found a rib somewhere, and a shin bone 100km away... seriously, that's how spotty the fossil records are.

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
The point I was trying to get across is that you shouoldn't get hung up on the Bible. It may be the best source of the Word of God we have, or it may not.

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

(bolds mine)

There is no other source of the Word of God, so i don't really see how u can say it may or may not be the best source.

:sleepy: As i said though, as much as i'd love to carry on all night, i've got an exam and it's 03:00 local time... so i'd best be off.

 

[mikhail]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
If anything, a child falling from a cliff or people starting wars comes from free will, does it not?

Not if God's got to decide if gravity is working at that exact place and time, no, and not if we were talking a toddler here, who isn't able to decide that he wants to jump off a cliff because he doesn't really understand the consequences.

If God was in a position where his decision determined that this theoretical toddler would fall to his/her death, then God would be responsible for murder. God would break a commandment. No, I'm certain that God merely set up the system, and left it to run.

That's not a disaster, because everyone knows it was written by a madman. A disaster would be if it was distributed as a biography of Jesus .

I've read some of it because i thought it'd be really interesting, but it's actually quite boring.

Some pretty nasty stuff gets peddled to Muslims as the Will of Allah. Don't try to tell me that that's differant, because it's not.

That's not true AFAIK, whole skeletons haven't been found.

They might have found a rib somewhere, and a shin bone 100km away... seriously, that's how spotty the fossil records are.

The "Turkina Boy", a fossel of a nine-year-old (approx) homo erectus or homo habilus (I can't remember which) was found in a small bank on the western shore of lake Turkina in Africa. I was complete except for the hands and feet, which are the bones most likely not to be fossilised. That's just one example. There have been dozens of at least half-complete skeletons found over the years..

2 Timothy 3:16
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

(bolds mine)

There is no other source of the Word of God, so i don't really see how u can say it may or may not be the best source.

Note the source of what you just quoted. Yes, you quoted the Bible to verify the bible's authenticity. I hope no one ever puts you in charge of a bank!

My arguement is that you have assumed that Christianity is the only valid religion, and in doing so you assume that Hindi, Buddism, etc. are all totally wrong. There is nothing to support this except the word of the church, which is the same problem again.

:sleepy: As i said though, as much as i'd love to carry on all night, i've got an exam and it's 03:00 local time... so i'd best be off.

Good luck with the exam, and good night.

 

[Lilianna]

++ [ originally posted by mikhail ] ++
I recently saw the results of a survey done in the US which indicated that a lot of people who refer to themselves as Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, etc. also said that they didn't believe in God.

I did a forum search, and found no thread on a similar topic, but corret me if I'm wrong!

Are you a theist, monotheist, polytheist, atheist or agnostic?

Are you part of an organised religion? Do you practice it? Do you believe in it?

I've a pretty good idea of the basics of Judaeism, Catholicism (and related Christian religions) and Islam, but if anyone here is from another religion, could they summarise (briefly) their religious beliefs.

Finally, I'd just like to ask that no one take the mick on this, as religion is a pretty touchy topic for some people.

i believe in God TOO much.....
i am talking to Him very often,
sometimes i do feel He forgot me but i am always wrong...
He is always here for me and He has given me sooo many things that i just Can not say i don't believe.

God is always here for us and He knows why we are going through some things....
recently many things are going wrong,
as always.
but i believe things will be good again.
i am not losing my faith.
i have proofs that God never left me...