Defensive problem!! (4 Viewers)

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
Cron, it might surprise you but I have actually done a lot of reading on this forum, including your posts.
Last season I missed 4 games (both Napoli games, Fiorentina home and the 4-0 against Reggina). Same goes for the previous season, so I think I know what I'm talking about. You and I just seem to have a (very) different opinion.

I couldn't care less about the individual quality of the players in our defense. More important is how they work as a unit. Take Roma for instance, individually Juan & Mexes are probably better defenders than Chiellini & Legro, yet I truly believe our partnership is (was?) better.

It's quite obvious we're in deep shit when the defensive coverage from our midfield is missing, no arguments here.
Then again, can you name 1 single (top) team that plays without defensive coverage in the mid to help the D?

And now, to really piss you off: Molinaro is one of the top 3 LB's in Serie A :oops:
I see, i was also just a spectator,to this forum, for a year or so, before a finally decided to sign up!

So, if you are familiar with my argumentation and you were also present to the multiple times our defense has collapsed.
You should be aware of the fact that we have tried time and time again to find quick fixed, but in the end we have failed miserably and the problem persists!

You should be aware, that this is the reason that holds our team back for the past 3 years. You say that you dont care about the individual quality of our defense and you only care about its efficiency as a unit.
I respect that a normal shouldnt care for more than that, but not a fun who actually cares for what can happen to improve our team.
This issue affects our tactical decision in many more ways that you can imagine and it force us to make great sacrifices, that do affect our overall performance and tactical versatility. If you dont mind dropping Diego and Giovinco and any other creative forward, who cant defend, just because we need 2-3 DMs to support our incompetent defenders.
In order to achieve a competent defensive unit! Thats totally your right and i respect your perspective.

You just want results and dont care how the come. But our discussion here, is what would have been the optimal solution to solve those issues.
The ones who care about that, have noticed that it is impossible to go past the limitations, such a pathetic defense imposes. With her needs and incompetence!

I do not expect from ignorant fans to understand that, but our boards ought to.
They wasted enough time with quick fixes, i expect a proper one, in order to make the next steps forward, on forging a competitive teams in all lines, able to compete with the best...

As for Moli, it is your right to believe that and i dont mind... fans do the have the tendency to believe in their players, even if they are not as good as they think...
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Dec 10, 2006
204
I was thinking that Canna-Chiellini will fit our CB before, but now I suppose. As Canna had a bad season in Real, and his performance in conf. cup disappoints me in fact. Legro deserves more than a completely sub player. And Canna is gonna be old, but who cares? He's a CB and I don't think his terrible performance is corresponded with his age.
Giorgio is still The WALL.so if Ciro wants to play with 4 defenders [100% he wants,though], we'll need a RB and LB then. Moli is hard working, but still stupid and annoying, I agree that he would be an alright sub.
If we dismiss Mellberg, we'll have big problems for that post. u should neglect his small mistakes at the end of the season. He did great in at least one third of the matches he'd been taken part into.
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
Did you just call me an ignorant fan?
Not you, the perspective of the fans that do not care for the root of our problems.
I dont know you enough, to assume if you are one of them or not.
I never aim the poster, but the argument/perspective.
I m just saying that i respect/understand the existence of this perspective, because i know a lot of them
and i know that they are not uncaring fans. They do care about our team and our problems. But they dont bother dig further in for a variety of reasons
(time, lack of knowledge/exp in the field, commitment, etc)
I wouldnt go us far, as to claim that they are lesser fans, than other, but some do here and you may have noticed...
how did you manage to do that, were you typing for your own?

The dam surely broke loose when you finally signed up i guess :p
Simply by reading the posts of other members, as a guest to these forums.
My competence in English and computers was insufficient to allow me a decent interaction with them (or at least, thats what i thought back then)
The site was informative enough, to give you a reason to come back, even then
and the quality of some poster and posts were... breathtaking, i didnt want to pollute the forums with my incompetence. And i had the impression that the tolerance level would eventually remove from the place i ve grown to love
(with my personal way)
 

Buck Fuddy

Lara Chedraoui fanboy
May 22, 2009
10,877
Not you, the perspective of the fans that do not care for the root of our problems.
I dont know you enough, to assume if you are one of them or not.
I never aim the poster, but the argument/perspective.
I m just saying that i respect/understand the existence of this perspective, because i know a lot of them
and i know that they are not uncaring fans. They do care about our team and our problems. But they dont bother dig further in for a majority of reasons
(time, lack of knowledge/exp in the field, commitment, etc)
I would go us far, as to claim that they are lesser fans, than other, but some do here and you may have noticed...
ok, fair enough.

The only problem I had / have regarding the def. is the lack of solid back up players. And it looks like this problem is far from being solved.

For example: I consider Zebina to be our starting RB, he's about as injury prone as Tudor used to be, so we need a (really) good remplacement. Sadly, we are stuck with Grygera who imo isn't up to the task. And neither is Brazzo, not anymore at least.
Same thing can be said about the left side, and to a lesser extent about the CB's (Olof was a competent back up).
 
Mar 28, 2007
2,272
Tuesday 23 June, 2009
Blog: Flat slack four
Italy’s defensive struggles at the Confederations Cup was also bad news for Juventus, writes Antonio Labbate



To the naked eye they were wearing blue. To Ciro Ferrara, the new Juventus boss, they were in black and white. The Italian defence at the Confederations Cup was as close to a crystal ball as it comes for a club manager.

With Gigi Buffon, Nicola Legrottaglie, Giorgio Chiellini, Fabio Cannavaro and either Andrea Dossena or Fabio Grosso likely to be in Turin next term, the inexperienced tactician has to be concerned at what he saw in South Africa.

Although inadequately protected by an unbalanced Italian midfield, the rearguard looked disjointed as a unit and average as individuals. The insurmountable Berlin Wall which the side built their 2006 World Cup success on crumbled at its foundations.

Cannavaro’s legendary status is being tarnished with every new cap, a defender who belongs to Juventus’ past and not their future. He should, in theory at least, be given some tough competition from Nicola Legrottaglie next season, the good Christian who at times can be a good defender but nothing more.

But the most worrying defensive aspect was the performances of Chiellini. A natural born fighter who was possibly Italy’s best player at Euro 2008, Giorgio has been one of the most consistent players at the Olimpico for the last two seasons now. Not that you would have guessed that from his African shift.

Indecisive, clumsy and uncharacteristically fazed by the opposition, Chiellini seemed to suffer from the pressure of now being regarded as a first choice regular for the national side. Ferrara, with his defensive know-how, will have to refocus his mind.

And finally we come to the left-back conundrum, one which has haunted Juventus since they sold Gianluca Zambrotta in the Calciopoli tsunami – even if that sale now, three years on and after his own Confederations Cup nightmare, has turned out to be some smart piece of business.

Dossena and Grosso are confirmed targets for the Old Lady given the likely departure of Paolo De Ceglie and the presence of marmite full-back Cristian Molinaro – a player who some rate, some hate and some bait into thinking he has an international future.

Dossena just doesn’t convince and the numbers don’t add up either. Ferrara has already stated that he’ll play with a four at the back and the Liverpool man is a 3-4-3 jigsaw piece, given that defending is often the least of his worries. That should ensure that all roads lead to Lyon and Grosso.

Whoever comes in, Ferrara’s got some work to do.

channel4.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,916
I don't know why it's such a surprise to some people. We'd either have more problems this year or next year when it comes to the defense, because Canna is already finished and Grosso is overrated. I don't know if Santacroce will help us much either.

Still problems at RB and LB.
 

cimenk

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2008
3,128
I am worried that Lippi is controlling the situation here, for give for the expression but Ciro will be a puppet doll and therefore his forced to play canna-chiellini cause Lippi wants that partnership. It seems damn obvious.
I feel the same too, i feel Ferrara is too concern about lippi advice.. starting from our defence, if it's become true that we will sign Dossena or Grosso and not sign RB.. It become obvious too with Ferrara so persistence to bring D'Ago to Juve, D'Ago will be used like Pirlo in National team.. and if he become success in Juve it guarantee him the place in Italy team for WC 2010
 

Cronios

Juventolog
Jun 7, 2004
27,519
In a week or so, (the announced date was 7-8july) the bulk of our team will be available to Ferrara. Our board and him said that by then the majority of our transfers targets will be decided and sealed and Ferrara will start preparing the new team for the coming season!
He needs that time to create from scratch, the new team and formation,
for optimal use of our material.

The confederation cup is over and the co own and loan deals are settled.
Our board has announced that we have already spent our transfer budget
and we will make just one more transfer, only if we sell first and create some funds to support it!
They have also announced that our priority is too sign one more CM
and if Molinaro is not fit to start, we will consider an urgent acquisition of a new LB. So, if there are any more acquisitions left, thats Dago or Grosso.
They will join later on, but they are experienced enough to fit in immediately. They are both Italians and "champions"...

Judging but what we have seen from our board all those years,
the previous behavior and current comments and planning,
it is no safe to draw some conclusions;

Keeper:

-Buffon wont be sold this year, he has decided to wait and see what can we do with Diego

-Manningher will be his back up, in case his back issues return...
(it was one of the wisest acquisitions this board has ever made)
We have Buffon's successor already in our hands and we wont miss the chance to sell him, when Buffon finally realizes that we wont win any titles, before his retirement!


RB:

-Zebina will be our starter on theory, he was pretty impressive in that one match, he had the chance to play. But it is certainly not going to last long, as we all know, how injury prone he is.

-Grygera will be our starter practically, following the coming Zebina injury.
We now have no other options left, as we have offloaded Mellberg, who was a viable solution and would help us in some derbies...
Our management trust Grygera and consider him, an invaluable asset of our five year plan, the were NEVER, no plans to replace him and as Zebi is growing older and even more injury prone. Grygera's place in our future backbone is solidified!!


CB:

-Chiellini will be our main starter and also the main component of our future defense. The greatest asset of our defense and he will be asked to make the difference in this season and the years to come, by himself.
Just like he did in the past years.
Hopefully, he will not repeat the silly performances, he did with our NT

-Cannavaro, is the replacement of Mellberg, it is a transfer clearly made to win some impressions. Canna is not a real upgrade to Legro or Mellberg at this age
and as he is older than Mellberg, he will even last less than him.
However, his prestige and experience alone and probably the fact that he has the respect of our... "coach", grants him the the right to be the first choice after, Chiellini.

-Legro, his age will soon start showing, he will do his best to grab away Canna's place from our starting eleven, in order to replace him in the NT too.
When Canna's speed and stamina, will start failing him, Legro will be there to take advantage of it!! That would help us to keep some short of high standards
and we might as well benefit of the competition between them!
However in a couple of seasons, we will have to replace the both of them and our defense's expire date, is already determined!!

-Ariaudo, despite what the fans are thinking/wishing, our board has declared that he was only kept, for educational reasons. He was destined to be loaned and we def are not considering him for a real option in our squad.
But since we have Ferrara and Canna, the lad can stay a lot from them,
maybe even more, rather than playing week in, week out, in a third team, until his loan expires!
It remains to be seen, if this will accelerate his growth as a player or stall it.
But his presence probably means, that we are not looking for a new Stendardo/Knezevic



LB:

-Molinaro is going to be our starter and it seems that he has convinced our management, that he and Grygera, are the very definition, of the Juve we aspire to become!!

(For v1rtu4l) "Just like i have been saying for the past three years!!"

They have been our starters for two consecutive years and they will be our starters for a third consecutive year. And form the backbone of our defense in the future Juve 2 and a half, star Juve...
Our new formation will demand a far better involvement from them and a more effective support of our midfield. He will have to use his full offensive capabilities,
in order to give us some winght in the midfield. Our three man defense, demands that, otherwise the opposition wingers will easily overrun us.
To present a multi-dimensional front, we have to threaten the opposition from all fronts.
In case they decide to man mark Diego and crowd the center of the midfield.
Their arithmetic superiority, could suffocate us and deny us the option of a front attack. This is were Molinaro's penetrative manuvrues and accurate crossing will come in and make the difference!!
The opposition will be forced to defend wide, in order to stop him and Grygera and they will let more space to Diego and our two CMs to work their magic!
Even if Molinaro is not quite capable for his offensive efficiency.
We must not forget that he is always trying hard to improve himself and under the guidance of a brilliant tactician and defender (Ferrara), he will learn to become as effective as Zabro used to be!! After all he is Italian and was also voted as one of the best fullbacks in serie A, well at least for a month or so...

-De Ceglie, we will keep him now, because his injury will not allow us to find an appropriate destination-team to co own him.
The fans and CR has decided that he is far too fragile to be given a chance,
almost as fragile as the useless Criscito. Another player we had a hard time of offloading and we had to help Genoa sign him, ensuring that they would have at least 3 years to gather the necessary sum to get him.
In the mean time, he will be playing for them and to further convince them keeping him, we have already thrown away 3 more youngsters to them!:shifty:
Hopefully they by the x-mas DC will be fit too and maybe that silly Ferrara, who seems to like him give him a couple of chances to prove his worth.
In order to raise some interest and find a club interest to pay a couple of millions to co-own him. We wont have to worry about the rest of the season, Molinaro will be always there and by the time, he will be a world class fullback.
Probably the best fullback in serie A, esp if Inter sell their current ones to EPL teams.


Defense has been our weakest point, for the past 3 seasons
and it might now looks like that we degrade it, just a little bit more.
But we can still make the difference and hope that our many quality forwards, with the help of Diego, will manage to score at least, just one more goal, than the opposition cheaper forwards!!
To ensure that, rumors have it that we are also interested on Pandev.
With him on our ranks, we dont have to worry about defensive lapses,
we will certainly score one more goal than the opposition!!

If our games end up 2-3, 3-3, 2-2 it will be at least a great boost for the spectacle and serie A need it!! We need to make the ultimate sacrifices to boost the popularity and the spectacle of the league.
If it werent for them, we would never be in Serie B and lived through all those magnificent experiences.
We must return the favor and give home to the washed up NT starters
and sacrifice efficiency for spectacle on the field!
We cant beat the champions of Inter, under the guidance of the special Jose, anyway.
Roma has some serious existence problems and Milan has already declared that their target is to rank third!!
 
Dec 31, 2008
22,910
Now that Melo will probably wrap up our transfer campaign, the defense looks almost the same except for a shaky Cannavaro. In fact i don't see an improvement in defense as now Chillini, Canna and Legro are the only CB's in the team not considering Prima players. Andrade, Knezevic and Mellberg left. Barring Mellberg the other two were useless for us and if Secco was not planning to buy a new CB (i was hoping Santacroce) Olof shouldve remained as backup. LB and RB positions look exactly the same. If Zebina returns to his good old days, its good for us as Grygera's defensive capabilities are well known. LB now looks to be the most weakest link in the team. DC has the potential but it will take time for him to reach the so called "New Antonio Cabrini" status. I hope the board should seriously go for Santacroce who can play as both RB and CB and an LB. The midfeld's cover for the defense is certainly better than last year considering Melo's presence but still we can hope that last seasons terrible defense agianst small teams like Chievo which cost us a hell lot of points doesn't repeat
 

nabulio

Junior Member
Jan 31, 2008
322
I just want to say that don´t underestimate Grygera. Yes, he was probably the worst player last season, but the fullbacks weren´t allowed to play. They had to defend and give some crosses at most. I´m sure Ferrara will allow them more space and than we will see.
 

arie mahendra

The Inspirator
Jun 19, 2009
57
We need a playmaker at CB. :p
That's what a member said yesterday but I think he meant what you're saying.

The defensive system and high defense line also doesn't help IMO. We're a bit slow at the back.

Passing is also something we lack at midfield and that's something you really need to create chances, dictate tempo and give a sense of control of the game.
erm..you meant Deplying central back? huhuu....
 
Oct 3, 2004
1,121
This is were Molinaro's penetrative manuvrues and accurate crossing will come in and make the difference!!
Cronios

He has speed, that is the only good thing I can say about him. But Penetrative maneuvers require skill, dribbling, and some ability to create space for yourself. He doesn't have that.

Accurate crossing? An assist or two, fine I'll give him that, but more often than not, his crossing has been horrid.

I don't understand how he's earned the most playing time of all the Bianconeri since Ranieri.

Again, he's speed and acceleration are AMAZING...but he sucks both with and without the ball.

Anyway, I've sort of "accepted" him in weird Stockholm-syndrome kind of way? (you know when you begin to draw a kind of affinity to your kidnappers? The same thing, this guy has tortured me so much, but now...I'm sort of accepting that he's here to stay and nobody else will replace him so just bare with it.)
 
Mar 28, 2007
2,272
Two hours of work this morning

The second day of Juventus in Pinzolo started off rather early. The bianconeri were already on the field of the Centro Sportivo Pineta at 09:30hrs. After a warm-up and stretching, Ferrara divided the group into two: the defenders worked under his and Maddaloni’s direction working on one-on-one defensive movements. Dodo Sormani took charge of the midfielders and the attackers who were kept busy with rapid exchanges of the ball and finalizations with small posts. After the work with the ball, the bianconeri took part in athletic exercises consisting of much running and stretching in conclusion. They were followed by Massimo Neri and his staff made up of Andrea Scanavino and Claudio Gaudino who joined the group today. The two hours of work will be repeated in the afternoon: «We started gradually – explained trainer Massimo Neri on Juventus Channel – Gradually we will increase the work load. Gym? I have always also worked on strength and therefore we will surely make use of it».

Juventus.com


ferrara himself coach the defender.. great stuff!
 

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