Death (9 Viewers)

[HelterSkelter]

I don't know if any such topic has been discussed before around here.So my apologies in advance.

People who believe in Religion do believe in the concept of fate.This does not necessarily mean that they believe that man has no power to control his destiny.What it means that God does have a role in it.The degree of control that man has over his destiny/fate is probably subjective,since religious people have different opinions on it.

Death is one such concept.Barring suicide,religious people do believe that your death is down to God's will.

So a question for Atheists here :

Do you people believe that good health and luck are the sole determinants of how long you live?Or is this more to it?

Not to target anyone.This is just a question that i felt like discussing here.

Happy Debating.

 

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[Martin]

As far as I know we haven't had a topic like this before.

Do you people believe that good health and luck are the sole determinants of how long you live?Or is this more to it?

People sometimes paradoxically say "death is part of life". Presumably this applies only to other people's deaths.

I wouldn't say luck, although that's not wrong but just sort of sends the wrong message, merely circumstance. That's no different from anything else in life. What determines if you get a promotion? If you land a good job? Lots of things in life you don't control, you just set out to influence as much as you can, but ultimately it's out of your hands.

But then we are quite good at survival. We live ever longer lives, we have low rates of infant mortality and that sort of thing. You can always be in an accident, but it's not very likely. And if you avoid drunk driving in all forms you lower your risk a lot. Even people who don't take care of themselves can stick around a long time, the body is resourceful. And if not medicine will help.

 

[Byrone]

Sorry to go off topic here,but can we get odds on the first member to get banned in this thread?

 

[Dostoevsky]

But then we are quite good at survival. We live ever longer lives, we have low rates of infant mortality and that sort of thing. You can always be in an accident, but it's not very likely. And if you avoid drunk driving in all forms you lower your risk a lot. Even people who don't care of themselves can stick around a long time, the body is resourceful. And if not medicine will help.

The only way you can survive so many accidents is to stay home then. Oh and it's very likely to happen actually. You can have a perfectly normal life, coming back from uni when you get hit by a bus when it's not your fault. It's a common thing and it happens. That move Seven Pounds just came to my mind.

On the other hand, do you believe in destiny? If you do, would wait at home to happen?

 

[HelterSkelter]

As far as I know we haven't had a topic like this before.



People sometimes paradoxically say "death is part of life". Presumably this applies only to other people's deaths.

I wouldn't say luck, although that's not wrong but just sort of sends the wrong message, merely circumstance. That's no different from anything else in life. What determines if you get a promotion? If you land a good job? Lots of things in life you don't control, you just set out to influence as much as you can, but ultimately it's out of your hands.

But then we are quite good at survival. We live ever longer lives, we have low rates of infant mortality and that sort of thing. You can always be in an accident, but it's not very likely. And if you avoid drunk driving in all forms you lower your risk a lot. Even people who don't take care of themselves can stick around a long time, the body is resourceful. And if not medicine will help.

Yes.But like you've said,in some situations,people leading reckless lives end up living longer than a sane person who lives a controlled,healthy life.But since it's out of our hands,won't it be down to fate and destiny?

I don't know if the Holy Book Of Atheists has the concept of fate and destiny.or does it?

 

[Martin]

The only way you can survive so many accidents is to stay home then. Oh and it's very likely to happen actually. You can have a perfectly normal life, coming back from uni when you get hit by a bus when it's not your fault. It's a common thing and it happens. That move Seven Pounds just came to my mind.

But it's not. If it was likely then 50% of us would die in traffic accidents, right? Even people in accidents much more often come out of them (sometimes even unscathed). We're just idiots that we don't learn from accidents or near accidents, but it's not killing us at high rates.

On the other hand, do you believe in destiny? If you do, would wait at home to happen?

Not really. I mean I suppose in the end you could "calculate" your future if you took the speed and location of every particle in the universe and did all the calculations to see which ones would collide at what speed, at what energies etc etc but it will never happen because you sort of need enough computers to fill the universe and enough processing time for a quadrillion universes to calculate all this, so on a far more practical level life is unpredictable and we only have statistics to inform us about risks.

 

[Martin]

Yes.But like you've said,in some situations,people leading reckless lives end up living longer than a sane person who lives a controlled,healthy life.But since it's out of our hands,won't it be down to fate and destiny?

Maybe the best quip on this subject is: Life is not fair. What it means is that we are really cell based organisms who happen to be self conscious and if we get lucky there's noone rigging the game in our favor, and if we get screwed there's no "higher power" screwing us over either. It's just life.

There are human concepts like fate and destiny, but all it really means is "unpredictability".

I don't know if the Holy Book Of Atheists has the concept of fate and destiny.or does it?

Well we don't have any particular book, but I'm sure there are atheists who have some sort of notion of destiny or maybe even afterlife. It can exists quite apart from a belief in a god.

 

[Dostoevsky]

But it's not. If it was likely then 50% of us would die in traffic accidents, right? Even people in accidents much more often come out of them (sometimes even unscathed). We're just idiots that we don't learn from accidents or near accidents, but it's not killing us at high rates.

Of course it's not that high but even I heard of some people here that died because of someones fault, being drunk or something. Bike crash, where you have a high chance of dying so it happens.

Stop the accidents?
How would say define a death of terrorist attack when you're at job, passing by or just happen to be at that store? Fate or a bad luck?

 

[.zero]

Sorry to go off topic here,but can we get odds on the first member to get banned in this thread?

put your money on me

 

[Martin]

Of course it's not that high but even I heard of some people here that died because of someones fault, being drunk or something. Bike crash, where you have a high chance of dying so it happens.

Stop the accidents? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POOIX_DUANk

How would say define a death of terrorist attack when you're at job, passing by or just happen to be at that store? Fate or a bad luck?

I would put it like this:
Noone has a valid guarantee that would prevent them from getting killed or injured by some nut or another.

If your buddy dies in a terrorist attack (again very unlikely) well what is there to say? I suppose in theory we can change the world so that there aren't any disgruntled and desperate people left. It's kind of like what do you do on a forum when a member is trolling and insulting everyone? Well, if you're just a member and you have no power to sanction him, what you can do is try to talk to him and figure out what it is causing him to do this. Fix that and you fix the forum. And the world.

Now this is something to work towards, but again: you don't control this.

 

[.zero]

personally i think "dying" is "overrated".

the concept of "fate" is an "en vogue" "fad" like having a "touch screen" "phone"

 

[swag]

Oops.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18046-asteroid-blast-reveals-holes-in-earths-defences.html

 

[Dostoevsky]

I would put it like this:
Noone has a valid guarantee that would prevent them from getting killed or injured by some nut or another.

If your buddy dies in a terrorist attack (again very unlikely) well what is there to say? I suppose in theory we can change the world so that there aren't any disgruntled and desperate people left. It's kind of like what do you do on a forum when a member is trolling and insulting everyone? Well, if you're just a member and you have no power to sanction him, what you can do is try to talk to him and figure out what it is causing him to do this. Fix that and you fix the forum. And the world.

Now this is something to work towards, but again: you don't control this.

On a forum you try to talk but if it doesn't work you ban him. In real life you can't ban someone, just kill, I suppose it's on equal terms. You can talk but try to fix it but I can quote you now and say it's very unlikely to happen. People believe that what they do is right or they don't even care about it, it's a human physique that you can't really change which leads to misunderstandings and potential fight, war, death.

I can't say it'd be a bad luck but more something like a fate when you happen to be at a certain place where something happens, or when some woman can't have kids.

 

[Martin]

On a forum you try to talk but if it doesn't work you ban him. In real life you can't ban someone, just kill, I suppose it's on equal terms. You can talk but try to fix it but I can quote you now and say it's very unlikely to happen. People believe that what they do is right or they don't even care about it, it's a human physique that you can't really change which leads to misunderstandings and potential fight, war, death.

Here's the thing though. Obviously noone is disputing that societies with a higher standard of life have better health, less crime and therefore less death. So what is happening in the world today? Population growth is in decrease. That's right. We once thought world population would grow exponentially to god knows what heights, but today we think at 2050 we're going to max out at 9 billion people. Why is this? Because the standard of life around the world is improving. When people start living longer and more prosperous lives it turns out they have fewer kids. So the fact staring you right in the face is that on the whole we are making progress.

Of course that doesn't prevent some nut in say Finland from shooting up a school. But maybe that's the next thing we need to work on: mental health. Don't just cure cancer, cure depression, cure anxiety etc.

I can't say it'd be a bad luck but more something like a fate when you happen to be at a certain place where something happens, or when some woman can't have kids.

Why is it not bad luck? How is bad luck different from fate? Who is pulling the strings?

 

[HelterSkelter]

but I'm sure there are atheists who have some sort of notion of destiny or maybe even afterlife. It can exists quite apart from a belief in a god.

Seriously?What does that contain?

 

[Martin]

Seriously?What does that contain?

No idea, man. I'm just saying atheism isn't contradictory with an afterlife.

 

[Stephan]

I am more interested of what "feels" when i am dead. Does it feel the same like before i was born (and i mean born as created).

 

[Dostoevsky]

Here's the thing though. Obviously noone is disputing that societies with a higher standard of life have better health, less crime and therefore less death. So what is happening in the world today? Population growth is in decrease. That's right. We once thought world population would grow exponentially to god knows what heights, but today we think at 2050 we're going to max out at 9 billion people. Why is this? Because the standard of life around the world is improving. When people start living longer and more prosperous lives it turns out they have fewer kids. So the fact staring you right in the face is that on the whole we are making progress.

Of course that doesn't prevent some nut in say Finland from shooting up a school. But maybe that's the next thing we need to work on: mental health. Don't just cure cancer, cure depression, cure anxiety etc.

Mental hospitals are full already, they even release most of them because they don't have space. Population growth is in decrease, true, the more times it passes people start to think differently, change their view and don't want to have kids but they come out with the lame economy crisis issue. The better technology and medicine we have, the more people die. If people only had that common sense at least millions of people wouldn't die because of wars, fight for oil.

Why is it not bad luck? How is bad luck different from fate? Who is pulling the strings?

Only gamblers believe in a bad luck and lucky streak. You know what, I'll bring the rabbits foot for my next exam. It will probably bring me as much luck as that rabbit had.

 

[Martin]

Getting a little tired of your negativity, Dus


I'm gonna throw one back at salman now. Here's what I don't get about you god people. We all agree that death is unpredictable and unfathomable, right? So I say "it's just circumstances" and you say "it's god's will". How the fook does that make it any better? In my case the "solace" is that it happens, it's out of our control. In your case there's an asshole rigging the play for your death knowing full well that he could have let you live. And this is more pleasing to you?

 

[IrishZebra]

Sorry to go off topic here,but can we get odds on the first member to get banned in this thread?

Never fear, I am here


As an Atheist, I have had to face my own mortality, and I realise that when I die that's it, but I believe you are talking about luck and fate as if they are a seperate entity, I'm failry sure both fall under the realm of chance.

After all Life is all about re-working the percenteges in your favour to compensate as much as possible from the destructive effects of bad events, including your death. Do I believe our time is somehow pre-determined, no, do I believe in fate? no.

Do I believe that you can had a vastly rewarding life by simply behaving in the way that you would like to be treated in return? you bet your ass cupcake