Croatian NT Thread (3 Viewers)

[sateeh]

I like the fact that McClaren wanted to show "tactical flexibility" by switching formation to 3-5-2.

Firstly, I can't think of any important club or national team which has played that formation successfully for some time. But secondly switching from a rigid 4-4-2 to a 3-5-2 using the same full-backs instigated by an overload of central defenders is not a show of tactical flexibility.

Such a change is more infrastructrual and does more damage than good. It's primary change is in the defensive configuration - an area England are already strong in. It does not alter the attacking options in the final third or how a team attacks - at least not how McClaren changed the team.

To do that England doesn't need to use three centre-backs but instead fluidity in midfield and attack. Those can be gained with 4-4-2(diamond), 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 or even a 4-5-1. So many permutations but those unknown to English coaches and supporters - what Jeeks is referring to in the mentality of English football followers.

Slaven Bilic was partly correct after the match in saying that "systems are dead in football". Whilst strictly not true days of setting out rigid formations such as McClaren did today and expecting them to expose teams doesn't work. Players need to be flexible and show technical skills and intelligence - something England lacks.

The only player who is capable of this has missed all of McClaren's matches in charge. No not Rooney - but Joe Cole. Even under Eriksson and the most rigid 4-4-2 he managed to give England that dynamism Bilic is talking about - a player that makes the difference not the position.

Rooney tonight and his antics at the WC proved to me despite his skill levels (in my opinion less than Joe Cole) is as English as all of his peers. His reluctance to adapt his role (i.e. the link striker) makes him one of the least flexible fowards in Europe. As shown in the WC he was frustrated (ultimately led to his dismissal against Portugal) when forced to play a role which most skillful strikers revel in - yet when playing with Crouch who needs that player to use their pace ahead Rooney could not move away from his comfort zone.

The comfort zone is where all England players are - too scared too change what they appear good at doing, just getting by with fantastic moments to cover their weaknesses. From Beckham to long-balls, crosses, free-kicks. Lampard and his goals but no-performances from midfield. Michael Owen with his goal scoring average and nothing else. Now Rooney with his one-sided skillset.

Fantastic...WC winners again in 2066?

spot on all counts-+rep.

although abt the 3-5-2 formation.I remember the last successful team that played that Germany in 2002 under 2002. I remember Lippi played it for a while as well as Capello with the Romans

 

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[V]

thnx for all the congrats guys! :toast:

it was a wild night yesterday, the streets were packed in red & white, everybody was singing, drinking the whole day long. a really fantastic atmosphere. i heard about 100 fans were arrested in the centre of zagreb during the day, don't know if there were any worse riots after the game, still haven't heard anything about it. all in all everything ended good more or less, the city is still standing.

about the game...what can i say? we won fair and square, and it was more than a deserved result. our boys had a fantastic atmosphere, and were flying for 90 minutes, every single man on the pitch went there to die, and it was completelly obvious, we put so much pressure on them right from the start and the english didn't know what to do. we took control of the game and gave them very little space.

in the first half england did nothing, not one shot on the goal. we contained them perfectly and never stopped attacking, kranjcar with the best chance in the first half but robinson was confident. like our coach said, neverminding that second goal, robinson was the best england player on the pitch. in the second half croatia scored through da silva after a good combination by rapaic and niko kovac. i find it ridiculous that da silva managed to score a goal like that with terry, who looks like a bull compaired to da silva, beside him. it was a good goal from our brazilian and it was much deserved. the second goal was a funny one, i'm eager to hear what the english press will say about it, perhaps a mole was on the job there. when it was 2:0 already our guys remained calm and kept possesion more and brought the game to an end in a perhaps exhibition style.

what can i say about england? sacking sven surely didn't help them. lol. anyway excuses are bound to be made, even now there is a poll on eurosport.com about who's to blame for england's defeat: the coach, the media, the players, the pitch. hello??? how bout the better opponent? we were clearly better and deserved to win. but that aside i'd say first of all the players, england have some amazing individual talent but as a team they simply do not function. why they think their team is god's gift to football i have no idea, even if bilic said that to the sun, he was right, england play like shit. and mark my words i wouldn't be surprised if england fail to qualify, both russia and israel won't be a piece of cake. also mclaren's decision to deploy a 3-5-2 to system was silly. and to make it even worse he deployed it agaisnt a team that played that same system stubbornly for the last 15 years, not only do our players know how that system works but our coach knows the ins and outs of that system. we stretched england and attacked a lot through both flanks. it was a tactical mistake by mclaren and i hope he comes forward and admits it.

all in all it was a great night, and a great game for croatia. just one more thing, fuck you uefa! where were those rasist pigs last night? where were those crazy-unbehaved croatian animals? they made us look like horrible, i was really disgusted with them. and calling us rasist when we even have a black player in our squad, whom the fans and the whole country love, and he scored last night. we're not a rasist country and never were, select few will always be there but perhaps uefa should focus themselves to eradicate that rasism in spain or germany.

 

[V]

here we go...

Robinson and McClaren slammed in back pages

11 minutes ago

LONDON (AFP) - Steve McClaren may have said he was prepared for the media backlash over a tactical gamble that backfired in England's defeat to Croatia, but it was goalkeeper Paul Robinson who bore the brunt of the press's ire.

Robinson conceded the second goal in a 2-0 loss in a Euro 2008 qualifying match that left England in a four-way scrap for two qualifying spots, when he bobbled Gary Neville's passback over his foot and into the net.

The Sun tabloid, Britain's best-read daily, put images of Robinson launching himself on the ball on its front page under the headline "Apauling", with the 'keeper on his knees on the backpage under the word "Robbish".

Other papers were no more forgiving of the Tottenham goalkeeper, with The Times titling its article, "Horrible bobble, toil and trouble as England crash", and The Daily Express headlined its story: "Here to you ... Misses Robinson".

The Daily Telegraph, meanwhile, published a photo of a forlorn Robinson on its front page, hands on hips, under the headline, "England keeper's comedy of errors", while the Daily Mail screamed "Steve sends in the clowns" above its match report.

The Daily Mirror tabloid was just as scathing, starting its report of the match: "Paul Robinson conceded one of the most embarrassing goals in England's international history last night during a humiliating defeat in Croatia."

By comparison to Robinson's mauling, McClaren was left relatively unscathed, having ditched a back four that had not conceded a goal in six matches in favour of a 3-5-2 line-up.

The Independent summed up the evening: "Whether England ever line up in the 3-5-2 formation again is not even the most pressing issue; whether they qualify for Euro 2008 is of much greater concern after last night."

"This game might be remembered for Paul Robinson's disastrous gaffe to swing and miss with a back-pass and gift Croatia their second goal; it was also surely a requiem for the tactical innovation of the manager, Steve McClaren," the paper's report on the match began.

The Guardian dubbed McClaren's England squad "shapeless", declaring: "The damage is inevitably severe ... for Steve McClaren, whose strategy was supposed to help the team get forward."

Indeed, the paper said, "if there is any consolation for the goalkeeper Paul Robinson ... it is that England, already a goal behind, were never likely to score in any case."

McClaren, for his part, on Wednesday refused to blame his players for the defeat, saying: "It was my decision to change. We've lost the game so obviously the tactics did not work," he said. "The team tried and the players did the jobs they were told to do. It has not worked and we have lost the game."

He will, however, have to wait more than five months until his side will be able to set things right in its next qualifying match, against

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not ONE word about croatia, about the better team, it's all abut them. they are really one of a kind.

 

[sateeh]

They will never change Vlat....never mind them, u were the better team on the night. Everyone knows that, they just wont admit it and will never do.

"Big Mac" is lucky that Robinson made that mistake. His deficincies were very clear and the media will forget about that and focus on the howler.

They will have a hard time to earn their qualification. They still have Israel and Russia who r doing well.

 

[V]

it bothers me to be honest, it's kinda pathetic from their side. oh well, let them enjoy themselves in slandering their own team. robinson will have it rough these days, poor fella, i really feel sorry fro him.
england have a long way to go, up next 3 away games for them, first one in israel. big mac better put it together otherwise bye-bye england.

 

[sateeh]

McClaren delivers a shambles
International football |
by Phil McNulty - BBC Sport 11 October 2006

England coach Steve McClaren issued a lengthy list of demands to his players before they entered battle in Zagreb.

The meaningless soundbites rolled off the tongue as McClaren called for "character... pride... passion... attitude... an English performance."

England captain John Terry even joined in the jingoism by announcing he was to deliver a Churchillian speech to rally the troops.

All splendid stuff - and all obviously left behind in the dressing room as McClaren's supposedly brave new era was exposed as a sham.

Talk of football and how England might win this game was conspicuous by its absence.

This became more understandable given the clueless efforts of McClaren, his tactical guru Terry Venables, and England's players.

McClaren's trademark grin has graced almost every occasion since his appointment.

Sadly for McClaren, it was wiped emphatically and humiliatingly off his face by a Croatia team prepared and inspired in a far superior fashion by his colourful counterpart Slaven Bilic.

McClaren's list of cliches and Terry's tub-thumping inspired a performance devoid of all the qualities they listed.

England, as so often before, talked a far better game than they actually played.

The only surprise is that anyone should be surprised that this team of players, cossetted and almost treated as a superior race by the Football Association, should flop again.

Croatia deserved their win, admittedly helped by a freak second goal when keeper Paul Robinson missed Gary Neville's back-pass.

But England produced a lifeless, atrocious performance that lacked direction and inspiration and will only increase the doubts of a nation decidedly underwhelmed by McClaren's arrival in Soho Square.

And as for McClaren's quote afterwards about hoping to "sneak" a win - what a depressing message for an England coach to convey.

McClaren's, and Venables' lest we forget, tactical switch to 3-5-2 created uncertainty and incompetence in equal measure.

Ironically, it was only Robinson who kept Croatia out until the 61st minute and Eduardo's looping header.

England's display was in keeping with their palsied efforts at the World Cup and on Saturday against Macedonia.

Wayne Rooney and Peter Crouch were poor, but where was the faster, better service McClaren's overhaul was supposed to provide?

McClaren's reshuffle, with the deserved introduction of Scott Parker, did not stiffen midfield as Croatia created all the chances.

Ashley Cole had a nightmare at left-back, flouting his billing as the world's best in that position.

And the Michael Carrick myth continues.

Manchester United's £18m man could only show less urgency in possession if he actually fell asleep on the ball.

And a defence that had looked sound, even when England had struggled previously, looked ill-at-ease and exposed thanks to McClaren's tinkering.

If a Sven-Goran Eriksson side had produced this performance, one can only wonder at the blood-letting that would be demanded.

McClaren was an integral part of that regime, and this defeat was more of the same - only worse.

England's coach will need all his spin doctors at his side to paint a pretty picture of his recent days in office.

He was outmaneouvred by a rookie coach in Bilic, who at least backed up his brave talk before the game with actions.

Bilic has transformed a Croatia side that had a dreadful World Cup.

McClaren has taken a side that had a dreadful World Cup and delivered no discernible improvement.

Croatia were lively, created chances, and took full note of Bilic's message that McClaren's tactical shift was playing into their hands.

England and McClaren now have five months to ponder two poor performances before the serious Euro 2008 action resumes against Israel in March.

McClaren will hope missing stars of the calibre of Steven Gerrard and Owen Hargreaves are fit and available.

And he must also find more than a few throwaway words - as well as a tactical plan that works - if the doubts expressed when he was appointed in such haste by the FA are not to increase.
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this would give ur boys some of the credit they deserved.

 

[Albertmare]

as usual, premirship players sucks

wow u slamed u'r own nation football league , but i feel the same too btw congrats to our croatian mates int:

 

[Marc]

We crushed them with a great performance and enthusiasm and with a little help from the pitch.

We showed that we have potential and some class players, a great defence particulary R.Kovac, a great midfield - especially Modric whom I would like to see in Juventus, and a great partnership in attack.

Again we played good VS strong opponent, I hope we will play like that Vs Israel and Macedonia.

BTW. Vlatko, who is next? :eyebrows:

 

[Marc]

And thank all of you Juventuz members for your congratulations.

 

[ReBeL]

Congrats, Vlatko and Mark...

http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/internationals/article1842602.ece

 

[JCK]

it bothers me to be honest, it's kinda pathetic from their side. oh well, let them enjoy themselves in slandering their own team. robinson will have it rough these days, poor fella, i really feel sorry fro him.
england have a long way to go, up next 3 away games for them, first one in israel. big mac better put it together otherwise bye-bye england.

Why should it bother you man? in the end it is their media that is ruining them and they don't know that. It is their virus that they can't get rid of and it is their virus that they are not aware of. They still believe they are the best that was ever there to touch a ball and they will keep getting surprised by defeats, dramatic tournament exits and miserable perfoarmances that they have no one but themselves to blame.

Croatia was by far the better team, solid defending, hard work in the midfield and they did their job pretty well upfront.

 

[V]

Why should it bother you man? in the end it is their media that is ruining them and they don't know that. It is their virus that they can't get rid of and it is their virus that they are not aware of. They still believe they are the best that was ever there to touch a ball and they will keep getting surprised by defeats, dramatic tournament exits and miserable perfoarmances that they have no one but themselves to blame.

Croatia was by far the better team, solid defending, hard work in the midfield and they did their job pretty well upfront.

yeah i know, i guess i'm just looking for some recognition. they lost a game to a better opponent and they said nothing about their performance, they're so concentrated about themselves. like i said, i really have no clue why they think they're god's gift to football. we're a small country and this is a big deal for us.

 

[Badass J Elkann]

woooooooooooo - grazie croatia, i was at the student bar with abt 100 others watching it on big screen, i was supporting croatia as im anti english, a few of us non english fans who were either irish or welsh were supporting croatia too, lol how the few of us errupted when croatia and neville scored in his own net

robbie k - fantastic, taught that ugly troll rooney how good he really is.

its about time the english fans faced some facts and that its time they were hit with a reality check, beating jamaica and andorra doesnt make u a strong contender, as most of the english fans have made them out to be.

england are the international version of inter.

enuff said there

 

[ReBeL]

----------------------------------------------------------------

Rooney clashes with angry England fan in Zagreb


England's bad night in Croatia has been made worse following confirmation Wayne Rooney was involved in an altercation with a fan as Steve McClaren's team left the stadium following last night's 2-0 defeat.

Rooney was among a group of players heading to the team bus when he was singled out for a barrage of personal abuse from a supporter frustrated at the performance of Steve McClaren's men.

While most of the fans who had stayed behind kept their complaints within reasonable boundaries given the nature of England's defeat, the individual concerned maintained his offensive in a particularly disgusting manner.

Already frustrated by England's biggest defeat for 13 years, Rooney, who has been named on a 30-man shortlist for the FIFA World Player of the Year award, is alleged to have responded.

Sources close to the player have moved quickly to try to defuse any tension between the Manchester United striker and the vast majority of supporters.

A spokesman for Rooney said: 'Any gesture Wayne may have made was directed to one, and only one, particular England fan, whose behaviour towards him appalled the other England players who saw it and horrified the rest of the England fans.

'Wayne has total respect for England fans. He accepts and understands their disappointment at last night's result.'

It is not the first time Rooney has found trouble in recent times.

Last month, he gave Blackburn's Michael Gray a black eye following a dispute in a Manchester restaurant, although again it appeared Rooney was not the instigator.

However, the latest news is unlikely to help ease the pressure on the 20-year-old, who is enduring the first dip in form of his stellar career.

Rooney has now gone over two years since his last competitive goal for England and things have been little better at Old Trafford recently, where he has not scored since the opening day of the Premiership season and his form has been eclipsed by that of fellow FIFA award nominee Cristiano Ronaldo.

ESPN

 

[AngelaL]

Croatia won! Congrats to Vlatko & Mark83

woooooooooooo - grazie croatia, i was at the student bar with abt 100 others watching it on big screen, i was supporting croatia as im anti english, a few of us non english fans who were either irish or welsh were supporting croatia too, lol how the few of us errupted when croatia and neville scored in his own net

robbie k - fantastic, taught that ugly troll rooney how good he really is.

An own goal by Neville - definitely inter material there!
Well done Robert K - for putting rooney in his place!

its about time the english fans faced some facts and that its time they were hit with a reality check, beating jamaica and andorra doesnt make u a strong contender, as most of the english fans have made them out to be.

england are the international version of inter.

enuff said there

How true!

 

[Jun-hide]

I feel sorry for Robinson, I really do. But I still can't help myself but laugh my head off!.

Personally, I don't mind playing 3-5-2 formation, but to me for the system to work, what you must have is a outstanding teamwork to cover your fellow team-mates and sheer athelticism, work-rate at the middle of the park.
In essence, I think it is a tactic that suits the underdog than technically talented teams who can afford to have one less midfielder than the opposition because of their ability to keep the ball.

In all circumstances, anyone who play at some level will surely know that biggest problem with England is not their tactical formation but so-called world-super stars can't string up more than 5 passes together in the middle of park. Pathetic! The reason why? Simple, because players are simply not used to give-and go, that is pre-requirement for any passing game. When I see English team, half of the players are standing still with no off the ball movement. The result is 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 you will play rigid and unimginative game.

But I agree with Intro there. Joe Cole is really the cog that gets England going. The biggest problem with England is, IMO, their lack of ability to disguise the pass (direct 30 yarders won't do it everytime) and sheer mechnical approach in their build-up. The matter is so bad that even Germany could be considered to play more creative style than Englad ATM (Actually I like watching Germans these days). Joe Cole is only player that can provide some unexpected things with his technical ability and imagination. Not a great fan of him by all means, but he is grossly underrated by virtually everyone these days. I dare say he is a better player than F.Lampard.

But I still do think England will make it to the final stage. Croatia is red-hot favorites but they still have to play away at England. Beside I can't envision Russia or Israel being much threat even if Gus Hiddink may conjure up one his magical moments.

Croatia looks like a good-bet to do well in the finals. They have young-talented squad and a great leader in Kovac.

 

[V]

joe cole is amazing, underrated completelly, he was the best england player at the wc imo. don't know how much of a difference he would have made on wednesday but it sure would have been better for england to have that creative sparrk in their midfield, which they obviously do lack. i wouldn't go as far to say better than lampard but a great player nonetheless, lampard is having a tough time but he's still top-class. you made a perfect point, england can't combine in the middle on the pitch, they are too static, especially with both parker and carrick in the middle. they lack that creative mind in the middle and it was obvious, our modric-kranjcar-rapaic gave them a lesson in quick passing, i maybe still under the influence but the way we moved that ball so quickly, against such class players, was just awesome. england don't have that, they focus too much on long passes, as they always did, but this just doesn't cut it anymore.

england's best way to go is to play a 4-4-2 diamond, cole and gerrard on the flanks, lampard behind the strikers so he can take long shots, and hargreaves/carrick as the last man in the middle. these 3-5-2 experiments they gotta get out of their minds, it's a outdated system which won't do anymore, the flanks are just to exposed, it was a complete tactical mistake by mclaren, even he said so. england have a good team but they gotta find a good solid starting 11 and make them work, they need to pass in the middle fluently and quickly, england is too unimaginative these days and too static in the middle, that's their main problem.

 

[V]

here are some pics off one croatian site to illustrate the atmosphere:

beautiful, ey?

there were a lot of irish and scots jersey, flags and scarfs present on the game, for obvious reasons. some scots and irish even came to the game to support croatia, and to teach, i quote, "those arrogant, self centred english *unts a lesson" .

the first flare is lit.

there were some brave souls that went around town outside of their group...

there were a lot of these guys around the stadium.

i'm glad to say there was some cro-england fans mingling, without rioting.

some england fans were in a bar where i was watching the game, and they were really regular, ok blokes. they liked our beer.

 

[Marc]

Nice pics, Vlatko!

http://www.comicalhost.com/PaulRobinsonBlunderEnglandVsCroatiaOwnGoal.php


:rofl2:

 

[Marc]

here are some pics off one croatian site to illustrate the atmosphere:

some england fans were in a bar where i was watching the game, and they were really regular, ok blokes. they liked our beer.

What beer precisely?