Cristiano Ronaldo (104 Viewers)

Sep 2, 2018
483
This is the inescapable reality of the 4-3-1-2.
The irony is that Madrid used a 4-3-1-2 against us in that final. Their team was:

Carvajal - - Ramos - -Varane- -Marcelo
- - - - - - - - Casemiro - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - -Modric - - - - -Kroos - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - Isco - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - C.Ronaldo - - - Benzema - - - - -

It's just that Carvajal and Modric in 2017 is 1000 times better than Khedira and Danilo.

Notice, their 3rd goal (Ronaldo's 2nd) came from a similar play which was a cross after a driving run from their RCM (Modric) in that system, something modern day Khedira couldn't do.

Just hope Ramsey plays in that position going forward and I hope Sarri doesn't just see him as a fit just for that CAM role.
 

Cerval

Senior Member
Premium
Feb 20, 2016
16,785
The irony is that Madrid used a 4-3-1-2 against us in that final. Their team was:

Carvajal - - Ramos - -Varane- -Marcelo
- - - - - - - - Casemiro - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - -Modric - - - - -Kroos - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - Isco - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - C.Ronaldo - - - Benzema - - - - -

It's just that Carvajal and Modric in 2017 is 1000 times better than Khedira and Danilo.

Notice, their 3rd goal (Ronaldo's 2nd) came from a similar play which was a cross after a driving run from their RCM (Modric) in that system, something modern day Khedira couldn't do.

Just hope Ramsey plays in that position going forward and I hope Sarri doesn't just see him as a fit just for that CAM role.
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Last edited:

MikeM

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2008
9,005
Ah yes. That lineup definitely needed to be configured in a 4-3-1-2 in order to score. :howler:

They would score in any formation, come on. Pass to prime Ronaldo, goal. They didn't even play well against us. 2nd goal was pure luck on a deflection.
 
Sep 2, 2018
483
Ah yes. That lineup definitely needed to be configured in a 4-3-1-2 in order to score. :howler:

They would score in any formation, come on. Pass to prime Ronaldo, goal. They didn't even play well against us. 2nd goal was pure luck on a deflection.
I was just highlighting that the problem isn't the formation but the personnel which you can see in those clips.

4-3-1-2 can work well if we didn't field Khedira and Danilol. The formation requires a lot of attacking input from the fullback as it's a narrow system. It also requires the wide central midfielders to make overlapping runs too to stretch the play and provide options - ensuring it's not too crowded in the middle. Things that neither Khedira or Danilol are capable of. Khedira just doesn't have the legs anymore to be starting and Danilo doesn't have the footballing technique or IQ.
 

MikeM

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2008
9,005
I was just highlighting that the problem isn't the formation but the personnel which you can see in those clips.

4-3-1-2 can work well if we didn't field Khedira and Danilol. The formation requires a lot of attacking input from the fullback as it's a narrow system. It also requires the wide central midfielders to make overlapping runs too to stretch the play and provide options - ensuring it's not too crowded in the middle. Things that neither Khedira or Danilol are capable of. Khedira just doesn't have the legs anymore to be starting and Danilo doesn't have the footballing technique or IQ.
The formation puts players in wide areas that shouldn't really be in wide areas. This is something you simply cannot avoid unless you want to completely forego possession in wide areas which is what we are sort of doing right now.

A ST shouldn't be in a wide area, ideally. Neither should a CM, ideally. We can all agree on this. The only players you could say should really be there are the fullbacks but then you are leaving yourself open at the back. You can't always rely on defenders to supply attacking width, it's such a big risk.

Any formation can work if you just overwhelm the opponent with top players. Like we did with Pogba, Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal. But the 4-3-1-2 has glaring flaws staring you right in the face. Immediately you have to solve a problem, and that's regarding who you want to receive the ball in wide areas. It's just so dumb IMO.

Ok, to play a 4-3-1-2, I'll buy Kante to play B2B. Great, he's an 8 out of 10 in this formation because he doesn't want to go wide. But he's such a good player that it still works. And the formation works, I win games. But if I play Kante in a 4-3-3, he's a 10 out of 10! So why don't I just do that?

If I ask Cuadrado to play full back but always up beside the strikers and still run back in defence he's an 8 out of 10. He's a great player so it works, and I win games! But if I play Cuadrado in a 4-3-3, where he doesn't have to play two different positions at once, he's a 10 out of 10! Why don't I just do that?

And same with a striker. If you buy a great striker, he can receive the ball wide and still be effective, but you want the striker central.

Now all these sacrifices are being made because you want to put a Trequartista on the field? It better be someone amazing, who can operate in such small spaces. Such a player that barely exists, and doesn't exist on this team for sure.

I think this is obviously why this formation is uncommon.
 

Cerval

Senior Member
Premium
Feb 20, 2016
16,785
The formation puts players in wide areas that shouldn't really be in wide areas. This is something you simply cannot avoid unless you want to completely forego possession in wide areas which is what we are sort of doing right now.

A ST shouldn't be in a wide area, ideally. Neither should a CM, ideally. We can all agree on this. The only players you could say should really be there are the fullbacks but then you are leaving yourself open at the back. You can't always rely on defenders to supply attacking width, it's such a big risk.

Any formation can work if you just overwhelm the opponent with top players. Like we did with Pogba, Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal. But the 4-3-1-2 has glaring flaws staring you right in the face. Immediately you have to solve a problem, and that's regarding who you want to receive the ball in wide areas. It's just so dumb IMO.

Ok, to play a 4-3-1-2, I'll buy Kante to play B2B. Great, he's an 8 out of 10 in this formation because he doesn't want to go wide. But he's such a good player that it still works. And the formation works, I win games. But if I play Kante in a 4-3-3, he's a 10 out of 10! So why don't I just do that?

If I ask Cuadrado to play full back but always up beside the strikers and still run back in defence he's an 8 out of 10. He's a great player so it works, and I win games! But if I play Cuadrado in a 4-3-3, where he doesn't have to play two different positions at once, he's a 10 out of 10! Why don't I just do that?

And same with a striker. If you buy a great striker, he can receive the ball wide and still be effective, but you want the striker central.

Now all these sacrifices are being made because you want to put a Trequartista on the field? It better be someone amazing, who can operate in such small spaces. Such a player that barely exists, and doesn't exist on this team for sure.

I think this is obviously why this formation is uncommon.
How does a system so bad made Milan win the CL in 2007 or more recently, made Juve reach the final in 2015? Even made Real win 2 of their last 4 CLs.

Which leads me to what I believe. If you have offensive fullbacks and a good midfield, it's a great system. I actually prefer 4-2-3-1 since it's the best of both worlds. But I disagree that this system is worse than another.

Beside in a 4-3-1-2 played correctly, you either don’t got to the wings at all or let the fullbacks go wide and a midfielder to cover in defence. No movements there from strikers or midfielder on the wings
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,066
The formation puts players in wide areas that shouldn't really be in wide areas. This is something you simply cannot avoid unless you want to completely forego possession in wide areas which is what we are sort of doing right now.

A ST shouldn't be in a wide area, ideally. Neither should a CM, ideally. We can all agree on this. The only players you could say should really be there are the fullbacks but then you are leaving yourself open at the back. You can't always rely on defenders to supply attacking width, it's such a big risk.

Any formation can work if you just overwhelm the opponent with top players. Like we did with Pogba, Pirlo, Marchisio and Vidal. But the 4-3-1-2 has glaring flaws staring you right in the face. Immediately you have to solve a problem, and that's regarding who you want to receive the ball in wide areas. It's just so dumb IMO.

Ok, to play a 4-3-1-2, I'll buy Kante to play B2B. Great, he's an 8 out of 10 in this formation because he doesn't want to go wide. But he's such a good player that it still works. And the formation works, I win games. But if I play Kante in a 4-3-3, he's a 10 out of 10! So why don't I just do that?

If I ask Cuadrado to play full back but always up beside the strikers and still run back in defence he's an 8 out of 10. He's a great player so it works, and I win games! But if I play Cuadrado in a 4-3-3, where he doesn't have to play two different positions at once, he's a 10 out of 10! Why don't I just do that?

And same with a striker. If you buy a great striker, he can receive the ball wide and still be effective, but you want the striker central.

Now all these sacrifices are being made because you want to put a Trequartista on the field? It better be someone amazing, who can operate in such small spaces. Such a player that barely exists, and doesn't exist on this team for sure.

I think this is obviously why this formation is uncommon.
It requires some hybrid players for sure but formations arent as static as people make them out to be. Also we have a hybrid wing/forward player that needs to be in both positions. What does that mean from the right side? It would be noce if the AM could be effective wide as well. Well COsta is exactly that. Also to have a great wing type RB to give width and ability to beat plyers off the dribble. We have that in Cuads. You can see why we would like this formation with our squad when fully healthy but we have a lot of injuries, new players, and new system as well. Having said that we havnt lost a match yet,. Yes its been ugly at times but the fact still remains
 
Apr 16, 2017
5,672
The irony is that Madrid used a 4-3-1-2 against us in that final. Their team was:

Carvajal - - Ramos - -Varane- -Marcelo
- - - - - - - - Casemiro - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - -Modric - - - - -Kroos - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - Isco - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - C.Ronaldo - - - Benzema - - - - -

It's just that Carvajal and Modric in 2017 is 1000 times better than Khedira and Danilo.

Notice, their 3rd goal (Ronaldo's 2nd) came from a similar play which was a cross after a driving run from their RCM (Modric) in that system, something modern day Khedira couldn't do.

Just hope Ramsey plays in that position going forward and I hope Sarri doesn't just see him as a fit just for that CAM role.
You can simplify by saying If Khedira and Danilo were good players they wouldnt get sold.
 

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