Coronavirus (COVID-19 Outbreak) (49 Viewers)

[Post Ironic]

Because surgeons wearing masks and community wearing masks outside are two different thing that can't even be compared. Doctors work in sterile surgical suites equipped with heavy duty air exchange systems and they filter the room air. They can't even distance from others. Their masks also prevent bacteria and parts of the skill falling into an open tissue/wound. But if a surgeon was sick then they wouldn't perform the surgery at all, they aren't relying on mask to prevent it and go like "let's do it, it's just a couple of hours of surgery". Plus they never use mask that's made of cloth which majority of people use, and they never use the same mask multiple times which is what people do. They throw masks away the very second they start to get wet inside. The way community uses masks is imo more harmful as majority touches the face constantly, re-uses the same old mask many times, have it wrapped up around the hand and walk around, etc.

Dude. There is a preponderance of evidence showing that masks limit the spread of this virus when used alongside social distancing, as the main vehicle for spread has been shown to be respiratory droplets and not surface contamination (can still infect this way but not as likely). Masks, even when used and made of cloth, limit the distance these droplets can travel and therefore limit transmission of the disease, especially when used alongside social distancing. They are definitely NOT more harmful, your personal opinion on this isn’t relevant here. Show us studies that back it up if you expect it to mean something. Both of us linked articles and studies that explain why they are effective with this particular virus.

 

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[JCK]

Very few people wear masks in Sweden

 

[Dostoevsky]

Dude. There is a preponderance of evidence showing that masks limit the spread of this virus, as the main vehicle for spread has been shown to be respiratory droplets and not surface contamination (can still infect this way but not as likely). Masks, even when used and made of cloth, limit the distance these droplets can travel and therefore limit transmission of the disease, especially when used alongside social distancing. They are definitely NOT more harmful, your personal opinion on this isn’t relevant here. Show us studies that back it up if you expect it to mean something. Both of us linked articles and studies that explain why they are effective with this particular virus.

But I saw why I think that. Because people don't even use them properly hence making it more ineffective. Study won't do that. I don't mean all of the people but surely plenty, if not majority.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Very few people wear masks in Sweden

Yet not a big difference. If anything you have less cases.

 

[Post Ironic]

Very few people wear masks in Sweden

Alongside the lack of a lockdown that might help explain why Sweden had 578 dead/million and its neighbours Denmark and Norway and Finland have 109 and 49 and 61 dead/million respectively.

Very few people wear masks in Vancouver Island too, but we have had like 190 cases and 5 deaths here in the entire pandemic thus far.

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Yet not a big difference. If anything you have less cases.

Less cases than where? They have over 5 times the death toll/million of their neighbour Denmark (6 times more densely populated than Sweden), over 11 times that of Norway, and 9 times that of Finland. Amongst first world countries they are in that worst death toll/per capita group with Belgium, Spain, UK, US, Italy.

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But I saw why I think that. Because people don't even use them properly hence making it more ineffective. Study won't do that. I don't mean all of the people but surely plenty, if not majority.

I think the idea is that, even when used improperly, as long as they are covering your face, they limit the distance respiratory droplets can travel out from you... so if social distancing is happening, they help stop transmission from asymptomatic people. Of course they aren’t perfect, and you are right that wearing shitty cloth masks and constantly touching your face, taking them on and off, etc makes them less effective. But as
part of an overall plan including masks, social distancing, hand washing, and asking to avoid face touching as much as possible, they do help.

 

[Fab Fragment]

Because surgeons wearing masks and community wearing masks outside are two different thing that can't even be compared. Doctors work in sterile surgical suites equipped with heavy duty air exchange systems and they filter the room air. They can't even distance from others. Their masks also prevent bacteria and parts of the skill falling into an open tissue/wound. But if a surgeon was sick then they wouldn't perform the surgery at all, they aren't relying on mask to prevent it and go like "let's do it, it's just a couple of hours of surgery". Plus they never use mask that's made of cloth which majority of people use, and they never use the same mask multiple times which is what people do. They throw masks away the very second they start to get wet inside. The way community uses masks is imo more harmful as majority touches the face constantly, re-uses the same old mask many times, have it wrapped up around the hand and walk around, etc.

Did you happen to read the link I posted?
It talks about the different types of masks and different studies. It’s a very informative read. It even talks about the “surgical masks”.

I’m not a researcher but are you suggesting that the whole medical community the world over, other than a small minority, is wrong?

 

[Dostoevsky]

Did you happen to read the link I posted?
It talks about the different types of masks and different studies. It’s a very informative read. It even talks about the “surgical masks”.

I’m not a researcher but are you suggesting that the whole medical community the world over, other than a small minority, is wrong?

So what do you say about Sweden that barely uses masks?

 

[Post Ironic]

So what do you say about Sweden that barely uses masks?

They had a huge number of deaths compared to their neighbours...

 

[Dostoevsky]

They had a huge number of deaths compared to their neighbours...

And a lot less compared to some country who did use them?

 

[Post Ironic]

And a lot less compared to some country who did use them?

What country? Comparable countries would be their Scandi neighbours. And they have 5 to 11 times the deaths/capita of any of them.

Their death toll/capita is NOT a lot less than any first world country aside from Belgium which is disastrously bad compared to anywhere. Spain, UK, Italy, US, Sweden are all within 578-636 deaths/million.

 

[Gian]

Masks or no masks make very little difference imo. It's (human) behaviour that needs to be adjusted. It's of no use when you wear a mask in public but you also hug or kiss your best friend, sibling, family etc. Or attend/host an indoor gathering. In Spain or France they are obligated to use masks, yet they record 10K cases per day. The only usage of having a face cloth is realizing we're in a pandemic, but other than that it's not that effective. It's just a false sense of security.

Also the chances of getting infected while walking on the streets is close to 0 like most studies show.

 

[s4tch]

What country? Comparable countries would be their Scandi neighbours. And they have 5 to 11 times the deaths/capita of any of them.

Their death toll/capita is NOT a lot less than any first world country aside from Belgium which is disastrously bad compared to anywhere. Spain, UK, Italy, US, Sweden are all within 578-636 deaths/million.

there's a thing about sweden though: they are probably much closer to herd immunity than any other country, so on the long run, these numbers can be reversed. 1st wave is only part of the bigger picture, we have to wait and see until the end of the 3rd/4th wave.

as for the masks and social distancing, a local group of experts (mathematicians, epidemiologists, network researchers, etc) whose advices were outstandingly effective in planning the 1st wave restrictions in hungary are 100% pro mask (indoor, that is) and pro social distancing. our 2nd wave will be fucking hard as the government prefers to keep the economy alive, still, the same experts say that the only way to deaden the 2nd wave effects is by using masks and keeping the distance. i'm no expert, i believe these guys.

 

[lgorTudor]

In Spain or France they are obligated to use masks, yet they record 10K cases per day.

They had these spikes because masks were not mandatory up to that point

 

[pavluska]

Masks are useless

How can you justify being a scientist if you tell people, there's nothing to do except wait it out. I know, make up arbitrary shit that gives you a false sense of security and moral superiority.

Dear oh dear

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Because surgeons wearing masks and community wearing masks outside are two different thing that can't even be compared. Doctors work in sterile surgical suites equipped with heavy duty air exchange systems and they filter the room air. They can't even distance from others. Their masks also prevent bacteria and parts of the skill falling into an open tissue/wound. But if a surgeon was sick then they wouldn't perform the surgery at all, they aren't relying on mask to prevent it and go like "let's do it, it's just a couple of hours of surgery". Plus they never use mask that's made of cloth which majority of people use, and they never use the same mask multiple times which is what people do. They throw masks away the very second they start to get wet inside. The way community uses masks is imo more harmful as majority touches the face constantly, re-uses the same old mask many times, have it wrapped up around the hand and walk around, etc.

You too?

Guys it's September.

But it's true many wear masks incorrectly - like under their nose - and it's irksome.

 

[Bjerknes]

People not wearing masks only increases the chances of another shutdown and prolongs the misery. Governments will close you down if people aren't following the rules, regardless of whether the rules make sense or not. I want things to remain open and wearing a cloth mask isn't really that big of deal. But once the virus is over they better end those campaigns.

 

[lgorTudor]

People not wearing masks only increases the chances of another shutdown and prolongs the misery. Governments will close you down if people aren't following the rules, regardless of whether the rules make sense or not. I want things to remain open and wearing a cloth mask isn't really that big of deal. But once the virus is over they better end those campaigns.

Agreed with the sentiment but whenever possible everybody should rather get a surgical mask. Cloth masks are a cop out, they are popular because people cant wear anything for a second that doesnt have the symbol of their favourite something

 

[Boksic]

Really don't see why people get so upset about wearing a mask. If it even makes the slightest bit of a difference (which studies suggest it does) why would you not wear one? They aren't expensive, you barely notice it after a while, what is the issue?

 

[s4tch]

Really don't see why people get so upset about wearing a mask. If it even makes the slightest bit of a difference (which studies suggest it does) why would you not wear one? They aren't expensive, you barely notice it after a while, what is the issue?

i wore one today for indoors work, and for an extended period of time (~6 hours with a couple of short breaks) it's bloody sweaty. i can see guys with glasses hating it with a passion. otherwise i'm fine with it

 

[Boksic]

i wore one today for indoors work, and for an extended period of time (~6 hours with a couple of short breaks) it's bloody sweaty. i can see guys with glasses hating it with a passion. otherwise i'm fine with it

I was thinking of it as the average shopper/commuter wearing one for shorter period. The climate here for wearing one is also not an issue.

 

[Post Ironic]

there's a thing about sweden though: they are probably much closer to herd immunity than any other country, so on the long run, these numbers can be reversed. 1st wave is only part of the bigger picture, we have to wait and see until the end of the 3rd/4th wave.

as for the masks and social distancing, a local group of experts (mathematicians, epidemiologists, network researchers, etc) whose advices were outstandingly effective in planning the 1st wave restrictions in hungary are 100% pro mask (indoor, that is) and pro social distancing. our 2nd wave will be fucking hard as the government prefers to keep the economy alive, still, the same experts say that the only way to deaden the 2nd wave effects is by using masks and keeping the distance. i'm no expert, i believe these guys.

I believe antibody testing showed that Sweden was nowhere near herd immunity, but that’s just hypothetical at the moment as there is a lot of debate currently on what constitutes herd immunity for this virus. Some saying it will start to show at around 20-30%, others still insisting on that 60-70% threshold.

I think the idea around early shutdowns to snuff out the virus before reopening with masks + social distancing was to get the virus under control while we understood very little about treating it and how easily it spread. As well as using that time to institute proper testing and contact tracing protocols.

Sweden took a huge gamble, which in the long run could turn out correct if no effective treatment or vaccine is found, and other countries see massive spikes again in 2nd and 3rd waves, but also could turn out to have been very poor if those things are found before new waves arrive. I mean, of it’s close by countries, the highest death toll/million is Germany at 112 (with 8x the population and far higher population density), followed by Denmark at 109. Norway, Finland, Estonia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia are all still significantly below 100 deaths/million. Sweden is at 578 deaths/million.

Let’s say all those countries double their death toll/million before treatment/vaccine is found. Sweden hypothetically keeps the low numbers and only goes up to 600. That still puts it at nearly 3X the deaths per million of Germany and Denmark. I’m not really sure how anyone can call that a successful strategy.

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i wore one today for indoors work, and for an extended period of time (~6 hours with a couple of short breaks) it's bloody sweaty. i can see guys with glasses hating it with a passion. otherwise i'm fine with it

I wear N95 dust masks alongside safety glasses at work for extended periods most days while cutting timber frame joinery... can confirm that it is awful and sweaty in summer, and that glasses can fog up if they are fitted properly. But they stop me from destroying my lungs with dust and other particulate, so it’s a very easy choice to make.

Same deal with wearing them during a pandemic. If masks are even slightly effective, it’s an easy choice to make.