Controversy Thread part 2: Religious discussion (6 Viewers)

[Cronios]

it was an interesting thread, too bad i ve missed it:-(
science and religion may coexist,
science could explain to people how God works,
in a way.
churchmen and sciencemen can t coexist,peacefully,
because people have to believe someone,
and someone has to have the control and being heard.
we will never supposed to have hard evidence on God s existance,
cause then we would be slaves.(fear, do this or... hell) .
we have the free will,
noone is forced to follow God but everyone is free to do that!!!
even if the bible wasnt altered,
vatican may hold some parts never given to the rest of the people.
mu question is, dou really believe,in 2004, that a man,
Pope, is a leaving part of God?
and whatever this man says its true?
and only this man can comunicate with God and rest cant?
people some time use religion to gain power.
rejecting those people u dont have to reject God too.
anyways faith can help people do wonderfull things,
and have some good main principles in his life,
which leads to a better society.

 

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[sallyinzaghi]

I think science and religion can coexist peacefully. I dunno bout other religions, but Islam values knowledge, especially science, very highly

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

that as in what he said.

 

[River]

No matter what your religion. There is always a 'God' right?

First of all let me say that I would consider myself a christian, I was brought up in that religion since I was born and do/used to believe in it.

Now I know someone from another religion who told me that they are absolutely certain about it, they dont just believe it but actually feel it.

How does one know for sure about their religion. The way I see most people now adays are born into a religion, grow up with it and just accept it. Much like myself. However I found myself asking. What has my life in religion done for me? Without playing the sad story my life really couldnt have been much worse, when I might have needed something, turning to religion never helped. Sure everything perhaps happens for a reason, but thats aload of crap, I would be way better of if I had things normal.

I have stopped practicing any religion. I lost faith in it. And to be honest nothing has changed. In fact my life is better now but that is only because that had to happen. There hasnt been any difference. There isnt something missing since i stopped practicing.

How do you know that your religion is true? Has something ever happened to you that just made you know? How do you know it wasnt a coincidence. Surely there needs to be something on a personal level that convinces you.
Before answering with 'religion makes you feel better' or something, consider that alot of things make you feel better. Couldnt it simply be the learning and determination that is making you feel better? Loads of things make me feel better, drugs and alcohol can make someone feel better.

Isnt it entirely possible that your faith is nothing more than a tradition passed from your parents? That you feel obliged to continue and pass to your children and so the circle continues.

Also I heard once that certain religions tell that unexplainable things that could happen when you join a particular religion could be an act of satan. Satan can use such things to get people to join and practice that religion. So if this is true, shouldnt you ask yourself if thats the case with you?

Some people will answer this with 'it isnt what religion you practice that has must significance, only that you have faith in god and serve him' that has to be the biggest load of crap ever. Different religions are so different it cant be the case.

Finally if God is fair and we will be judged at the end. Wouldnt you be better of if you never really knew of religion. Surely God cannot judge someone who has never practiced religion. What happens? From a christian perspective, Is it explained anywhere in the bible?

Furthermore, why hasnt religion changed? Or advanced. Surely everything cannot have been given to us. Surely there is more required of us or that we could do. Why are we a more advance people, still practicing an old unchanged religion of our ancesters. From a christian point of view it dosent seem enough. Yeah you can find anything in the bible, but you can find anything if you dont know what you are looking for or if you dont quite understand what you are reading. Who has made up these guidelines on all modern day things?

I release that is kinda random and all over the place, but its just some thoughts.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

even thought it comes from the wrong person i do believe that


"religion is the opium of society"

 

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
No matter what your religion. There is always a 'God' right?

First of all let me say that I would consider myself a christian, I was brought up in that religion since I was born and do/used to believe in it.

Now I know someone from another religion who told me that they are absolutely certain about it, they dont just believe it but actually feel it.

How does one know for sure about their religion. The way I see most people now adays are born into a religion, grow up with it and just accept it. Much like myself. However I found myself asking. What has my life in religion done for me? Without playing the sad story my life really couldnt have been much worse, when I might have needed something, turning to religion never helped. Sure everything perhaps happens for a reason, but thats aload of crap, I would be way better of if I had things normal.

I have stopped practicing any religion. I lost faith in it. And to be honest nothing has changed. In fact my life is better now but that is only because that had to happen. There hasnt been any difference. There isnt something missing since i stopped practicing.

How do you know that your religion is true? Has something ever happened to you that just made you know? How do you know it wasnt a coincidence. Surely there needs to be something on a personal level that convinces you.
Before answering with 'religion makes you feel better' or something, consider that alot of things make you feel better. Couldnt it simply be the learning and determination that is making you feel better? Loads of things make me feel better, drugs and alcohol can make someone feel better.

Isnt it entirely possible that your faith is nothing more than a tradition passed from your parents? That you feel obliged to continue and pass to your children and so the circle continues.

Also I heard once that certain religions tell that unexplainable things that could happen when you join a particular religion could be an act of satan. Satan can use such things to get people to join and practice that religion. So if this is true, shouldnt you ask yourself if thats the case with you?

Some people will answer this with 'it isnt what religion you practice that has must significance, only that you have faith in god and serve him' that has to be the biggest load of crap ever. Different religions are so different it cant be the case.

Finally if God is fair and we will be judged at the end. Wouldnt you be better of if you never really knew of religion. Surely God cannot judge someone who has never practiced religion. What happens? From a christian perspective, Is it explained anywhere in the bible?

Furthermore, why hasnt religion changed? Or advanced. Surely everything cannot have been given to us. Surely there is more required of us or that we could do. Why are we a more advance people, still practicing an old unchanged religion of our ancesters. From a christian point of view it dosent seem enough. Yeah you can find anything in the bible, but you can find anything if you dont know what you are looking for or if you dont quite understand what you are reading. Who has made up these guidelines on all modern day things?

I release that is kinda random and all over the place, but its just some thoughts.

Those are some of the points I alwaya make in religious discussions. I personaly am an atheist.

 

[River]

Ok the last post was a big to much and completely unanswerable.

But here is something I would like people from each religion to answer please.

I wonder how each religion sees the other religions. Do you think they are completely wrong? Does your religion have anything regarding other religions or recommendations or something? If a certain religion is correct and the rest are not, then why doesnt that religion try to bring new people into it? I think only some christian religions and other religions like Jehovas Witnesses really do this. Seems weird that in a 'religion' people wouldnt want to share that with everyone, dont it?

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
No matter what your religion. There is always a 'God' right?

First of all let me say that I would consider myself a christian, I was brought up in that religion since I was born and do/used to believe in it.

Now I know someone from another religion who told me that they are absolutely certain about it, they dont just believe it but actually feel it.

How does one know for sure about their religion. The way I see most people now adays are born into a religion, grow up with it and just accept it. Much like myself. However I found myself asking. What has my life in religion done for me? Without playing the sad story my life really couldnt have been much worse, when I might have needed something, turning to religion never helped. Sure everything perhaps happens for a reason, but thats aload of crap, I would be way better of if I had things normal.

I have stopped practicing any religion. I lost faith in it. And to be honest nothing has changed. In fact my life is better now but that is only because that had to happen. There hasnt been any difference. There isnt something missing since i stopped practicing.

How do you know that your religion is true? Has something ever happened to you that just made you know? How do you know it wasnt a coincidence. Surely there needs to be something on a personal level that convinces you.
Before answering with 'religion makes you feel better' or something, consider that alot of things make you feel better. Couldnt it simply be the learning and determination that is making you feel better? Loads of things make me feel better, drugs and alcohol can make someone feel better.

Isnt it entirely possible that your faith is nothing more than a tradition passed from your parents? That you feel obliged to continue and pass to your children and so the circle continues.

Also I heard once that certain religions tell that unexplainable things that could happen when you join a particular religion could be an act of satan. Satan can use such things to get people to join and practice that religion. So if this is true, shouldnt you ask yourself if thats the case with you?

Some people will answer this with 'it isnt what religion you practice that has must significance, only that you have faith in god and serve him' that has to be the biggest load of crap ever. Different religions are so different it cant be the case.

Finally if God is fair and we will be judged at the end. Wouldnt you be better of if you never really knew of religion. Surely God cannot judge someone who has never practiced religion. What happens? From a christian perspective, Is it explained anywhere in the bible?

Furthermore, why hasnt religion changed? Or advanced. Surely everything cannot have been given to us. Surely there is more required of us or that we could do. Why are we a more advance people, still practicing an old unchanged religion of our ancesters. From a christian point of view it dosent seem enough. Yeah you can find anything in the bible, but you can find anything if you dont know what you are looking for or if you dont quite understand what you are reading. Who has made up these guidelines on all modern day things?

I release that is kinda random and all over the place, but its just some thoughts.

I've heard that the people who believe in God suffer the most, and the people who don't won't know suffering until they reach the Judgement Day. I know many fellow Catholics who are very good people, who never miss a mass and pray the Rosery everyday. And these people, sadly, seem to have had their fair share of suffering. Deaths, among other problems, seem to be most common occurences. I know two friends who have some of the most friendly, God loving family members, and bad luck just follows them around. My one friend's dad went into a simple hip replacment surgery, and something went terribly wrong and he passed. Such a good family as well, and I felt bad for my sophomore friend. My other friend who is the nicest kid I know, gets into unfortanute accidents that change his life. While all the other people I know that are hardly "God lovers", nothing happens to them or their family (at least no early deaths or other weird problems in the family). I do believe that the people who suffer most in Life will suffer the least when they die, and vice versa for the people who don't have a place for God in their lives. But thats just an opinion, and no offense to anyone. But isn't it strange?

 

[Zlatan]

But why do you have to suffer at all? This whole God thing is a bit strange to me. I mean, if God is all mighty, all powerful, perfect etc, why does he need us? Why did he create humans? What, was it just to ffffwatch us struggle day in and day out. To amuse himself? What is it to him if we go to heaven or not, of we live or die, if we're good or bad? Why does he need us to worship him, is it an ego thing?

 

[Trezeguet_FC]

The Baha'i Faith (my religion) believes that God created us out of love for His creation. Here are two quotes from Baha'u'llah. The second is a little longer, but very interesting:

"O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life. "

"The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness. Whoso hath recognized the Day Spring of Divine guidance and entered His holy court hath drawn nigh unto God and attained His Presence, a Presence which is the real Paradise, and of which the loftiest mansions of heaven are but a symbol...Whoso hath failed to recognize Him will have condemned himself to the misery of remoteness, a remoteness which is naught but utter nothingness and the essence of the nethermost fire. Such will be his fate, though to outward seeming he may occupy the earth’s loftiest seats and be established upon its most exalted throne. "

-Baha'u'llah

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by River ] ++
Ok the last post was a big to much and completely unanswerable.

But here is something I would like people from each religion to answer please.

I wonder how each religion sees the other religions. Do you think they are completely wrong? Does your religion have anything regarding other religions or recommendations or something? If a certain religion is correct and the rest are not, then why doesnt that religion try to bring new people into it? I think only some christian religions and other religions like Jehovas Witnesses really do this. Seems weird that in a 'religion' people wouldnt want to share that with everyone, dont it?

Some religions are very similar (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) and thus these religions dont see the other as "completely wrong." It's natural that one is viewed as "wrong" because there are minor conflicting aspects. These religions and a couple other ones believe in the one and only God Almighty. Therefore, in Islam at least (not sure about the other views), Chirstianity and Judaism is regarded higher. This doesn't mean people fromm other religions can be treated with less respect in day to day relations. However the difference is with religious things that might affect the family. For example, It's forbidden for a Musim man to mary a women who isn't a Muslim, Jew or Christian.

As far as Islam is concerned, people are encouraged to look into it and convert. Islam welcomes new people with open arms. It's even the fasted growing religion on earth ( and in many western countries like the USA) . In terms of populations it's the second largest religion.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

I swear this is a conspiracy. When I'm not in the forums then you people activate my favourite thread

I dunno. Maybe you're right, that family plays a big part in you being what you are now. Since young I've always asked myself, "how do I know Islam is right for me", "how do I know there is a god", etc etc. But when I think of life as, I don't know, life where there is no God etc, it just seems so ... empty somehow. Like life without a purpose. In Islam they encourage you to look for the best in the world, and do the best for the afterworld. That kinda gives me a goal. If there is no goal like that, I feel there's really nothing to sort of look forward to. Basically, I find the idea that if life is meant for just to live it without a purpose.. that's just not for me.

Besides, I always find consolation in the existence of God. I like praying. It makes me feel serene.

Well each to its own.. for me, religion just fulfills me and make my life meaningful and happy, and they teach me things. It's fulfilling and refreshing.

 

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Some religions are very similar (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) and thus these religions dont see the other as "completely wrong." It's natural that one is viewed as "wrong" because there are minor conflicting aspects. These religions and a couple other ones believe in the one and only God Almighty. Therefore, in Islam at least (not sure about the other views), Chirstianity and Judaism is regarded higher. This doesn't mean people fromm other religions can be treated with less respect in day to day relations. However the difference is with religious things that might affect the family. For example, It's forbidden for a Musim man to mary a women who isn't a Muslim, Jew or Christian.

As far as Islam is concerned, people are encouraged to look into it and convert. Islam welcomes new people with open arms. It's even the fasted growing religion on earth ( and in many western countries like the USA) . In terms of populations it's the second largest religion.

In fact, AFAIK, believers of any religion are regarded higher than non believers.

Also, AFAIK, a Muslim man can marry a non-muslim women as long as she converts to Islam, but a muslim women can never marry a non-muslim man.

 

[Minfana]

Another strict atheist here...

Sorry to disturb you, but has anyone ever proved there is "a god" (no God with the capital G for me, 'coz I don't believe in that stuff.)

Some things I'm quite curious about:

Why is "god" always a he?

Why are there many religions - isn't "the god" the one and only who has created (???) you all?

Who needs priests - especially catholic - I've heard a lot about child abuse

And about pain and suffering: C'MON, WE ALL WILL DIE eventually. Who suffer are the ones who are still living after their loved ones have passed. The dead do not feel anything any more. Besides, what is so horrible about dying? Who wants to live forever anyway...

Don't bother getting offended, I'm just telling you how I feel about religion(s).

 

[Len]

Minfana might've pushed the limit a bit there..ay?

What are u gonna say...., religous people??

 

[sallyinzaghi]

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++

Also, AFAIK, a Muslim man can marry a non-muslim women as long as she converts to Islam, but a muslim women can never marry a non-muslim man.

as far as I know this is not true. a muslim woman can a marry a non muslim man, and, like a muslim man, provided her husband converts to the religion. however... for me personally I never liked the idea of a person marrying another person and her husband/wife converts to islam and that's that. I mean, for me, if I were to marry a person who's non muslim, I would want him to convert to Islam because of his own choice, not because he wants to marry me.

Ya hear that pippo inzaghi?

 

[sallyinzaghi]

++ [ originally posted by Minfana ] ++

Why is "god" always a he?

In Islam, (I'm a muslim) God is neither he or she. It's a very strict rule that God is everything his creations are not. and the usage of 'he' as reference is just a language thing I think, if of unsure gender or anything english users will usually refers something to a he, no?

Why are there many religions - isn't "the god" the one and only who has created (???) you all?

I dunno. Some religions are man-created. Some are not. it's a matter of your belief really which one do you think it's right.


And about pain and suffering: C'MON, WE ALL WILL DIE eventually. Who suffer are the ones who are still living after their loved ones have passed. The dead do not feel anything any more. Besides, what is so horrible about dying? Who wants to live forever anyway...[/QUOTE]

I don't really understand this... My perception of 'suffering' is just like paying your debts. Like, if a person was a mass murderer, he would suffer in afterlife for what he did. But again in Islam (and I'm pretty sure in other religions too) there's always repentance for wrongdoings, even murder

 

[River]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
I do believe that the people who suffer most in Life will suffer the least when they die, and vice versa for the people who don't have a place for God in their lives. But thats just an opinion, and no offense to anyone. But isn't it strange?

Yes but this is what I dont understand. Isnt God fair? For many people being part of a religion simply hasnt been an option. If you are taught by your parents to not worship then you wont do it etc, Is it fair to then be judged as someone who rejected God in your life? I cant see a loving God doing that. What about all the starving kids in africa who have never heard of God? I was hoping someone would quote me somethings for their respective religious books that might explain it, or atleast explain to me what way your religion deals with this. Surely its to big to be overlooked.

But why do you have to suffer at all? This whole God thing is a bit strange to me. I mean, if God is all mighty, all powerful, perfect etc, why does he need us? Why did he create humans? What, was it just to ffffwatch us struggle day in and day out. To amuse himself? What is it to him if we go to heaven or not, of we live or die, if we're good or bad? Why does he need us to worship him, is it an ego thing?

The only person from any religion who has answered this to something I can accept was from a Mormon (dont disregard because of its 'bad' name, its a christian religion that follows all christian principles, except it has more). That person told me that the purpose of life was to come to earth to get a body. Before we came here we were only spirit. Body and spirit are combined on earth and though you leave your body on death. You are reunited with your body in heaven.

They also explain the struggles etc etc as something God has given us, 'Free Agency', the right to choose what actions etc we will do, we will then be judged on these. God dosent interfere with your free agency hence murders, rapes etc. This is probably the same across all christian religions.

I dunno. Maybe you're right, that family plays a big part in you being what you are now. Since young I've always asked myself, "how do I know Islam is right for me", "how do I know there is a god", etc etc. But when I think of life as, I don't know, life where there is no God etc, it just seems so ... empty somehow. Like life without a purpose. In Islam they encourage you to look for the best in the world, and do the best for the afterworld. That kinda gives me a goal. If there is no goal like that, I feel there's really nothing to sort of look forward to. Basically, I find the idea that if life is meant for just to live it without a purpose.. that's just not for me.

Besides, I always find consolation in the existence of God. I like praying. It makes me feel serene.

Yes so your religion gives you a goal, something to work towards, something to do. But couldnt it simply be the hunger to do those things that are the attraction.

The marriage in religions is another issue. What kind of religion forces someone to join that just to get married? And why is it doing that? Whats the point? Does your religion consider marriage as a marriage on earth? Or a marriage for eternity? If its a marriage for eternity then what happens if you die while married but are not happy with your partner? Does divorce even erase the eternal link?

Thoughtout my life ive always been a protestant i guess. But to be honest I dont think this religious teaching is complete. There is just to much and too many things that are missing or are not explained. There isnt hardly any devotion needed to be given to God, there isnt that many rules you must abide by.

And until ive had this discussion online (ive never actually discussed this with Islam etc) I consider the Mormon religion to be the only one that can answer every single question. Does this mean something?

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++



In fact, AFAIK, believers of any religion are regarded higher than non believers.

Also, AFAIK, a Muslim man can marry a non-muslim women as long as she converts to Islam, but a muslim women can never marry a non-muslim man.

1) False. If she converts to Islam, then she's not concidered "non-muslim."
I repeat, A muslim can marry a Christian or a Jew only. she doesn't even have to convert to Islam after marriage.

2)True.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++


as far as I know this is not true. a muslim woman can a marry a non muslim man, and, like a muslim man, provided her husband converts to the religion. however... for me personally I never liked the idea of a person marrying another person and her husband/wife converts to islam and that's that. I mean, for me, if I were to marry a person who's non muslim, I would want him to convert to Islam because of his own choice, not because he wants to marry me.

Ya hear that pippo inzaghi?

Sorry Salihah, this isn't true.

A Muslim woman can't marry a non-muslim, and a Muslim can only marry from the people of the book (Christians and Jews). Also, there is no force in religion. You can't force somebody to convert. 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.."

it's not just about saying that you are muslim... you have to believe. you have to make that choice on your own, not for money or power to marry or anything. Islam is no just by word, you have to believe in the Shahadah(decleration of Islam) when you make it.