[CL] Champions League 2015/2016 (26 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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Comparison was always between 2013 and current team. Both teams faced/are looking to face Bayern, so it makes sense to make one. The current team despite the initial difficulties has picked themselves up and are looking rather impressive. From a technical point of view, players like Dybala, Mandžukić, Morata, Sandro, Marchisio (as a b2b mid instead of ageing Pirlo) and Pogba (he was on the bench back then) are making a huge difference and the gap between the sides is notable imho. The midfield of Pogba-Marchi-Sturraro, where Marchisio is playing as a DM is more balanced to Vidal-Pirlo-Marchisio, where eliminating Pirlo from the game makes the team devoid of any kind of creativity, which leaves us to Bonucci hoofing the long balls to our forwards, who btw would lose most of the duels back then. Another benefit is Sandro on the left side, really no debate there as to who is/was better between him and Peluso. Also the 2012 team was weaker than the one in 2013, but that's for another debate. Most of the players in the current sqaud have experienced great CL campaign so there's this benefit as well, as opposed to the team that had some really dreadfull results in pre-Conte era.
People here always have low expectations from the team. Back then I had said that Juve would win the title or top 3 finish at worst, but the usual crowd found that absurd. I was making these claims since Milan's squad had depended on 1-2 players to bring the results and when these guys went through a slump of form, it took a toll on their results. Juve was stronger than Milan, no European obligations, more motivated and Milan's key players like Seedorf, Ambrosini, Gatusso, etc... were well past it.
It's something you'll just have to accept and I think you will eventually; Allegri is a better manager. He takes a team that looked shaky in Europe, underachieved, seemed to approach the games without any confidence and gets it to the final. Then he loses several key players over the summer, beats City in both games and qualifies with a round to spare.
Hey, look at that, we agree over something
People here always have low expectations from the team. Back then I had said that Juve would win the title or top 3 finish at worst, but the usual crowd found that absurd. I was making these claims since Milan's squad had depended on 1-2 players to bring the results and when these guys went through a slump of form, it took a toll on their results. Juve was stronger than Milan, no European obligations, more motivated and Milan's key players like Seedorf, Ambrosini, Gatusso, etc... were well past it.
It's something you'll just have to accept and I think you will eventually; Allegri is a better manager. He takes a team that looked shaky in Europe, underachieved, seemed to approach the games without any confidence and gets it to the final. Then he loses several key players over the summer, beats City in both games and qualifies with a round to spare.
Hey, look at that, we agree over something
We weren't simply beaten by better individuals back then. We were destroyed tactically. They realized that we were impotent attacking wise so they located our main strength and they acted on completely neutralizing it. They had the equipment to put enormous pressure on our back three (Mandzukic was a nightmare for us) and to cut off Pirlo, and we were done.
They were the first who realized how to shut off our team, and having the needed quality they successfully implemented the plan.
Those matches were really important for us in many ways. We changed a lot after that in a way that we stopped relying on possession football based solely on Pirlo's distribution. Bonucci's role gained importance after that match and we were no longer a team that could be stopped by putting pressure on Barzagli and Chiellini and cutting off Pirlo. Bayern forced us to become more versatile, which allows us to adjust to many different situation nowadays.
Unfortunately we lack quality today in order to play on par with the best like last year. One can be sure, though, that this Juve won't be completely destroyed like in 2013, despite not having a better team compared to that one. Back then no luck in the world could have helped us. Even if we scored some screamer from half the pitch, they were gonna equalize and win because they simply and purely owned us tactically and we had no plan B to our only game plan. Nowadays with our discipline and ability to adjust, luck can be a decisive factor.
So we are talking about the same season (Conte's second).
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By 2013 you mean Conte's second season right?
If thats the case then Pirlo was definitely at a super human level and way above the current marchisio. So was Vidal. I'll take the old trio in midfield with Pogba coming from the bench any day over the mediocrity we have today. I'll also take Marchisio as B2B over Khedira/sturaro/lemina mess we have in that position of glass players. Vidal was one hell of a goal threat by the way if you have forgotten. He scored something like 18 goals that season if memory serves me right. He was the best attacking CM in the game arguably after YaYa that season.
The strikers were shit that is a given but we somehow managed without them thanks to the CMs.
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Comparison was always between 2013 and current team. Both teams faced/are looking to face Bayern, so it makes sense to make one. The current team despite the initial difficulties has picked themselves up and are looking rather impressive. From a technical point of view, players like Dybala, Mandžukić, Morata, Sandro, Marchisio (as a b2b mid instead of ageing Pirlo) and Pogba (he was on the bench back then) are making a huge difference and the gap between the sides is notable imho. The midfield of Pogba-Marchi-Sturraro, where Marchisio is playing as a DM is more balanced to Vidal-Pirlo-Marchisio, where eliminating Pirlo from the game makes the team devoid of any kind of creativity, which leaves us to Bonucci hoofing the long balls to our forwards, who btw would lose most of the duels back then. Another benefit is Sandro on the left side, really no debate there as to who is/was better between him and Peluso. Also the 2012 team was weaker than the one in 2013, but that's for another debate. Most of the players in the current sqaud have experienced great CL campaign so there's this benefit as well, as opposed to the team that had some really dreadfull results in pre-Conte era.
People here always have low expectations from the team. Back then I had said that Juve would win the title or top 3 finish at worst, but the usual crowd found that absurd. I was making these claims since Milan's squad had depended on 1-2 players to bring the results and when these guys went through a slump of form, it took a toll on their results. Juve was stronger than Milan, no European obligations, more motivated and Milan's key players like Seedorf, Ambrosini, Gatusso, etc... were well past it.
It's something you'll just have to accept and I think you will eventually; Allegri is a better manager. He takes a team that looked shaky in Europe, underachieved, seemed to approach the games without any confidence and gets it to the final. Then he loses several key players over the summer, beats City in both games and qualifies with a round to spare.
Hey, look at that, we agree over something
People here always have low expectations from the team. Back then I had said that Juve would win the title or top 3 finish at worst, but the usual crowd found that absurd. I was making these claims since Milan's squad had depended on 1-2 players to bring the results and when these guys went through a slump of form, it took a toll on their results. Juve was stronger than Milan, no European obligations, more motivated and Milan's key players like Seedorf, Ambrosini, Gatusso, etc... were well past it.
It's something you'll just have to accept and I think you will eventually; Allegri is a better manager. He takes a team that looked shaky in Europe, underachieved, seemed to approach the games without any confidence and gets it to the final. Then he loses several key players over the summer, beats City in both games and qualifies with a round to spare.
Hey, look at that, we agree over something
If thats the case then Pirlo was definitely at a super human level and way above the current marchisio. So was Vidal. I'll take the old trio in midfield with Pogba coming from the bench any day over the mediocrity we have today. I'll also take Marchisio as B2B over Khedira/sturaro/lemina mess we have in that position of glass players. Vidal was one hell of a goal threat by the way if you have forgotten. He scored something like 18 goals that season if memory serves me right. He was the best attacking CM in the game arguably after YaYa that season.
The strikers were shit that is a given but we somehow managed without them thanks to the CMs.
We weren't simply beaten by better individuals back then. We were destroyed tactically. They realized that we were impotent attacking wise so they located our main strength and they acted on completely neutralizing it. They had the equipment to put enormous pressure on our back three (Mandzukic was a nightmare for us) and to cut off Pirlo, and we were done.
They were the first who realized how to shut off our team, and having the needed quality they successfully implemented the plan.
I do, non of that is anything I disagree with or addressed (especially tactically, big upgrade), I'm solely talking about our ball winning skills and lack of leadership in midfield. It's a clear disadvantage compared to when MVP was at it best. Our midfield used to carry our entire team, now you can't say for sure it's most solid part of the team. Don't wanna be a hater but we should seriously bought someone close to Vidal aspects instead of Khedira. It's a shame we missed out on Allan, it's not in hindsight, really wanted him in spring when Khedira was announced, and that's when we had Arturo still.
Buffon, Chiello and Marchi once, but it was a loong time ago.
http://www.11v11.com/matches/poland-v-italy-11-november-2011-296720/
http://www.11v11.com/matches/poland-v-italy-11-november-2011-296720/
I think one of the differences between this team and 2011/12 to 2012/13, is that this team is more well-rounded without the glaringly obvious weakness that we had then in the forward department.
2012/13 was a better team just because of how incredible our midfield trio was that year, and Chiellini and Barza beating at their peaks... but a team with tactical versatility and top players like Bayern could go all out on attempting to nullify our midfield superiority by both bypassing it with wing dominance and pressuring it relentlessly. We even saw small teams occasionally attempt to do the second, by adding numbers to midfield so as to really close down space and harass our midfield.
This year, even though the team is inarguably weaker, it doesn't really have a positional weakness unless we assume injuries. We still have a fantastic defensive line, incredible wingbacks/fullbacks, a "good" starting midfield 3, and a very well-rounded and excellent attack. The ability of this team to rise to the level of a "great" team entirely depends on the midfield. We need Paul Pogba coming into form and understanding just how to use his world class tools to dominate his position. And we need at minimum one of our plethora of injured/young midfielders to step up and make that RCM spot his to keep. It's too bad Asamoah is more a LCM, and can't seem to get fully fit. If he could, he has the tools and the playing style to make our midfield 3 very very good, and this team much more dangerous.
2012/13 was a better team just because of how incredible our midfield trio was that year, and Chiellini and Barza beating at their peaks... but a team with tactical versatility and top players like Bayern could go all out on attempting to nullify our midfield superiority by both bypassing it with wing dominance and pressuring it relentlessly. We even saw small teams occasionally attempt to do the second, by adding numbers to midfield so as to really close down space and harass our midfield.
This year, even though the team is inarguably weaker, it doesn't really have a positional weakness unless we assume injuries. We still have a fantastic defensive line, incredible wingbacks/fullbacks, a "good" starting midfield 3, and a very well-rounded and excellent attack. The ability of this team to rise to the level of a "great" team entirely depends on the midfield. We need Paul Pogba coming into form and understanding just how to use his world class tools to dominate his position. And we need at minimum one of our plethora of injured/young midfielders to step up and make that RCM spot his to keep. It's too bad Asamoah is more a LCM, and can't seem to get fully fit. If he could, he has the tools and the playing style to make our midfield 3 very very good, and this team much more dangerous.
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