Circumcision, hip or lame? (4 Viewers)

What do you think?

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Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
I would like to answer Razielist for a second. If Indeed, relative morality was true, then how can you argue that relative morality was true in the first place. Since you are insinuating that morality is not objective, arguing the relative morality is true is contradicting the very basis of what the philosophy states.
Well my idea of morality is that one shouldnt do anything to other that he wouldnt want done to himself. Im talking about sane person here, no freaks. My problem with your moral law is that as you say is god written which i dont believe is true for obvious reasons :) So lets say i am doing something that is moral, because i think it is good and would certainly wouldnt mind anyone doing to me, but someone with different background than me thinks as if this is immoral. People with different background will look to issues with different perspective, and thats not objective. If there is a god maybe he has objective morality, but since i dont believe in him and we are humans, so i think subjctive morality is what exists.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
I don't know why you posted that link, but that guy provides you a pretty poor argument. He does however give a working definition of objective when talking about morality:

Morality is objective in the sense that it holds or not regardless of human opinion.

But how the fuck would morality hold regardlss of human opinion?
If the Nazi's thought their actions were moral, it does not matter, because genocide is immoral.

But another human being thinks a car is more important than some child who has to work in poor conditions. We need some facts to convince this person that he's wrong. Show me those facts.

Otherwise it's just your opinion against his.

You won't stop will you? Okay fine, my compassion and feelings allow me to think this way. How can we find an objective moral truth without using our feelings? I guess we can't, at some point during the process, our emotions do get involved. This however, does not necessarily mean that we cannot find the objective moral truth. Just because we do not act objectively, this does not mean we can't find the absolute moral truth.
 
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
"it is important to understand that the skeptic answer can be seen as simply absurd and hypocrite. Most atheists would not accept subjectivist answers in any other area (except perhaps some nihilists), especially things like science. We rightly blame many Christians for holding Creationist positions on faith and subjective appreciation, because their position is not based on reality. But we must put the same blame on the shoulders of the subjectivist position in morality. To argue that morality is not knowledge and that therefore any belief or whim is acceptable, is not any more acceptable than saying that biology is not knowledge and that Creationist is true by default."

Atheist writer.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
The fact that those things has done greater good in the world than a nice car.
Yes, but what if the young boy will be next hitler and he will do more harm than good? What is the moraly right thing to do? Kill him while he is young, no suffering? Imprison him for life? Or just stand aside and do nothing?
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
The moral argument says that objective morality is evidence for the existence of God. Some even go so far as to say that without God, objective morality would not exist. Why would anybody claim that? Wouldn’t we still feel that people committing genocide and rape is reprehensible even if there were no God? Of course we would. But if the immorality of such behaviors is to be an objective truth that is independent of what we think, then something besides us has to say people shouldn’t behave this way. There has to be some kind of transcendent, fundamental reality that says how we ought to behave. And this transcendent fundamental reality, I argue, is what we call God.
Why does it have to be? Or maybe we want for it to be?
 
OP
Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #207
    You won't stop will you? Okay fine, my compassion and feelings allow me to think this way. How can we find an objective moral truth without using our feelings? I guess we can't, at some point during the process, our emotions do get involved. This however, does not necessarily mean that we cannot find the objective moral truth. Just because we do not act objectively, this does not mean we can't find the absolute moral truth.
    I'm sorry, but this contradicts the meaning of "objective". I wish you had discovered this problem sooner and I wouldn't have had to ask the same question again and again.

    This however, does not necessarily mean that we cannot find the objective moral truth.
    Is that so? What other, fact based approaches do you suggest?
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,189
    The moral argument says that objective morality is evidence for the existence of God. Some even go so far as to say that without God, objective morality would not exist. Why would anybody claim that? Wouldn’t we still feel that people committing genocide and rape is reprehensible even if there were no God? Of course we would. But if the immorality of such behaviors is to be an objective truth that is independent of what we think, then something besides us has to say people shouldn’t behave this way. There has to be some kind of transcendent, fundamental reality that says how we ought to behave. And this transcendent fundamental reality, I argue, is what we call God.
    That is actually very true. You used all the wrong words and you completely fucked up the beginning of your post, but it's true. If there is an objective moral standard, the existence of God is very likely.

    But there's no objective moral standard.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    "I already mentioned that the standard skeptic, and humanist, answer to morality is evolutionary adaptation. But evolution does not give us objective morality, but rather explains why people hold the moral positions they do. It explains why the whim exists, but not what reality actually indicates. Evolutionary adaptations are based on a non-directed process, and are based on the human species and environment as it existed millions of years ago. Even if the evolutionary process was flawless from our perspective, it would hardly make the moral instincts of a tribal, status-based species living in an ancestral environment, devoid of almost all technology, applicable to today’s world.

    We can say that the morality-as-evolutionary position is flawed precisely because it is subjective: it uses objective facts (evolution and evolutionary psychology) but uses them to falsely deduce moral facts. If there is to be knowledge about morality, then it must be objective, that is to say, based on Reason: beyond that, we must remain silent.

    To claim that morality is subjective is a denial of causality – actions have consequences, which arise because of natural, psychological and social laws. If you stop eating, you will die. If you stop drinking water, you will die even faster. If you break the social mores of decency or peaceful behaviour in your relationships with others, your life will be affected and even endangered. If you do not pursue social values in general, you will live isolated from the benefits of civilization. If you do not pursue mental values, you will not have the mental capacity to reason our way through life. Without such values, you would easily fall prey to any received idea, any scam, you would have no capacity to manage your life. Causality is universal: actions have consequences, causes have effects, if we fail to follow the requirements of life we will fail to live.

    Whatever the moral system upheld by the individual, we can express the general value-judgment process simply in the following manner:

    1. There is a moral choice, with two or more possible actions.
    2. Those actions exist in a context.
    3. The combination of that context and our hierarchy of values (whatever its form) determines the values effected by each action.

    We already have a hierarchical system of values in humanistic psychology, which is called Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, and is generally accepted in the field. David Kelley gives a similar account of human needs in “Logical Structure of Objectivism”, albeit one that also includes vital philosophical concerns (bold his):

    ” Material needs such as needs for health and food: these values contribute directly to survival.

    Spiritual needs such as needs for conceptual knowledge, self-esteem, education and art: these values are spiritual in the sense that they primarily pertain to consciousness, and contribute to survival by helping Reason to function properly.

    Social needs such as needs for trade, communication, friendship and love: these values are social in that they occur only through interaction with others. Logically, their status as values is due to the fact that they contribute to the fulfillment of spiritual and material needs.

    Political needs such as needs for freedom and objective law, which are needs concerning the organization of society. These provide the context for fulfilling our material, spiritual and social needs”
    (p81)

    I think it is pretty clear that all of its parts are objective. They are based on existing physical and psychological causal facts that we observe in ourselves and other people. It is also a hierarchy, given that the needs at one level need to be fulfilled to a suitable extent before we can be concerned about the others.

    A value is a goal that our actions seek to accomplish. Objective values have a one-to-one correspondence with objective needs, because needs indicate the goals that need to be fulfilled. As David Kelley judiciously writes in “Logical Structure of Objectivism” (italics his):

    “The place of biological needs in the logical structure of Objectivism is this: since one’s life is one’s ultimate value, one has to know what one needs for the maintenance of life in order to know what to seek as a value.

    The needs of a living organism determine its goals. In other words, its needs determine its values.”
    (p69-70)

    We have a hierarchy of values for the same reason than we have a hierarchy of needs – because some values need to be reasonably fulfilled (such as nutrition or sleep) before some others can come under the purview of our actions (such as love or excellence). There is a gradient of importances that necessarily enters into account here. That is why one may say, objectively, that eating is much more important than, say, gaining status. But these values are universal: they apply to all human beings, except in some cases where higher values cannot be effected due to physical defect.

    It is important here to understand that while values themselves are objective in all ways, their specific implementation differs from person to person and from culture to culture. For instance, we all need to eat, but we do not eat the same things. Someone in Latvia might eat a dinner of bizugis with pea balls and a glass of maizes kvass, and I might have a piece of tourtière with maple syrup and a glass of milk. But it remains an inescapable biological fact that we both need to eat to survive.

    Contextuality expresses the fact that an action does not exist in a vacuum. When we examine an action, we cannot ignore that the action takes place in a given context. This context is necessary to evaluate the consequences of an action, because it informs the values that are effected by the action."

    Interesting article by a an atheist. http://www.strongatheism.net/library/philosophy/case_for_objective_morality/
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    OP
    Martin

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #212
    From now on I don't read anything you paste or link to longer than a a few lines. When you paste two pages of text I have no idea what you are trying to say with it and it's not your thought process anyway.
     

    Seven

    In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
    Jun 25, 2003
    38,189
    From now on I don't read anything you paste or link to longer than a a few lines. When you paste two pages of text I have no idea what you are trying to say with it and it's not your thought process anyway.
    And he didn't pick a good article anyway.
     

    Raz

    Senior Member
    Nov 20, 2005
    12,218
    JR, Do you agree that morality norms were different in stone age, bronze age, in the antic time, middle ages industrialisation and now?

    And about hierarchies, such as maslow and etc. it isnt a reliable thing, because to different people there will be different needs and their order. One needs food and shelter first then self actualisation, the other will need security and etc. We all have different priorities and different morality compass.
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    From now on I don't read anything you paste or link to longer than a a few lines. When you paste two pages of text I have no idea what you are trying to say with it and it's not your thought process anyway.
    Objectivity quite simply exists in all forms in life. It's ridiculous trying to deny this. The author explains this in detail, just read it, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
    That author provides a very weak argument. It contradicts itself by the way.
    How so?
     

    Raz

    Senior Member
    Nov 20, 2005
    12,218
    Doesnt this process called "blinding with science", by throwing numbers a lot of text, the text and numbers doesnt have to be convincing at all this information has to do is overwhelm the recipient, and then the sender can say - i told you so!
     
    Jun 13, 2007
    7,233
    Well my idea of morality is that one shouldnt do anything to other that he wouldnt want done to himself. Im talking about sane person here, no freaks. My problem with your moral law is that as you say is god written which i dont believe is true for obvious reasons :) So lets say i am doing something that is moral, because i think it is good and would certainly wouldnt mind anyone doing to me, but someone with different background than me thinks as if this is immoral. People with different background will look to issues with different perspective, and thats not objective. If there is a god maybe he has objective morality, but since i dont believe in him and we are humans, so i think subjctive morality is what exists.
    You didn't answer my question, how can subjective moraluty itself indeed be true of nothing is objectively true? The very premise of subjective morality is contradictory.
     

    Raz

    Senior Member
    Nov 20, 2005
    12,218
    You didn't answer my question, how can subjective moraluty itself indeed be true of nothing is objectively true? The very premise of subjective morality is contradictory.
    Im afraid i cant answer you this, because i lack knowledge to answer you this question in english and on the subject itself.

    No hard feelings alright? :p
     

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