Champions League 2019/20 (29 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ronn
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Agreed. Thats why the list I showed gives a better idea about the most historic clubs in the European Cup/CL and who has the most pedigree in terms of persistence and overall achievements to go far.
Also agreed about the number of overall trophies doesn't give the full picture.
Liverpool and Bayern have less international trophies than Barca but I'd certainly say that the titles won by those two clubs (BM and LP) are of more value. Barca have won 4 Cup winners cup which is impressive, but Liverpool and Bayern got more European Cups and also won the UEFA Cup when it was of much value. They won the Inter-Cities Fairs cup 3 times which no one cares about really.
A Barcelona fan would probably disagree with me.
Bayern and Juve are also one of the few clubs to have won all the international trophies, only a handful of clubs did so.
Also agreed about the number of overall trophies doesn't give the full picture.
Liverpool and Bayern have less international trophies than Barca but I'd certainly say that the titles won by those two clubs (BM and LP) are of more value. Barca have won 4 Cup winners cup which is impressive, but Liverpool and Bayern got more European Cups and also won the UEFA Cup when it was of much value. They won the Inter-Cities Fairs cup 3 times which no one cares about really.
A Barcelona fan would probably disagree with me.
Bayern and Juve are also one of the few clubs to have won all the international trophies, only a handful of clubs did so.
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1st 6 I'd say. They went 30+ years without winning after the mid 60s, before beating us in 98. Rest is history 
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I don't see how a barca fan would disagree with a straight face, youre both right here, it's just a fun game to count them, since Milan started doing it in 2007 to claim to be the biggest club in the world.
UEFA Cup used to be a top competition. To demonstrate, picture this:
Real, Juve, Liverpool, Bayern, PSG, Porto, Ajax etc. in the CL while:
barca, Atletico, Sevilla, City, Chelsea, United, inter, Lazio, Atalanta, Dortmund, Leipzig, Gladbach(?), Benfica, PSV, Marseille(?) etc. make it to UEFA Cup. Would you say it's inferior to the above? It's a different competition in the 90s and prior completely to today, that's why Bayerns, Juventus', inters, Reals, victories in it are more valuable than some recent ones. Compare the difficulty to the early CL editions and you get a even better understanding at what the UEFA Cup once was.
I would also like to separate the Super Cup and World Cup from the others. Those are (in the words of tuz) 'glorified friendlies' and can't hold the same value as a competition that is played over an entire season. So if you would want to value them accordingly, I'd say CL is 5, EL is 4, Cup winners Cup 3, and the other two a 1. Though that's still flawed because again, CL in the 60s =/= CL today and UEFA Cup in the 90s =/= EL today. There is really no proper way to evaluate it properly unless you do tons of research, which no one will bother to
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I don't see how a barca fan would disagree with a straight face, youre both right here, it's just a fun game to count them, since Milan started doing it in 2007 to claim to be the biggest club in the world.
UEFA Cup used to be a top competition. To demonstrate, picture this:
Real, Juve, Liverpool, Bayern, PSG, Porto, Ajax etc. in the CL while:
barca, Atletico, Sevilla, City, Chelsea, United, inter, Lazio, Atalanta, Dortmund, Leipzig, Gladbach(?), Benfica, PSV, Marseille(?) etc. make it to UEFA Cup. Would you say it's inferior to the above? It's a different competition in the 90s and prior completely to today, that's why Bayerns, Juventus', inters, Reals, victories in it are more valuable than some recent ones. Compare the difficulty to the early CL editions and you get a even better understanding at what the UEFA Cup once was.
I would also like to separate the Super Cup and World Cup from the others. Those are (in the words of tuz) 'glorified friendlies' and can't hold the same value as a competition that is played over an entire season. So if you would want to value them accordingly, I'd say CL is 5, EL is 4, Cup winners Cup 3, and the other two a 1. Though that's still flawed because again, CL in the 60s =/= CL today and UEFA Cup in the 90s =/= EL today. There is really no proper way to evaluate it properly unless you do tons of research, which no one will bother to
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1st 6 I'd say. They went 30+ years without winning after the mid 60s, before beating us in 98. Rest is history
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I don't see how a barca fan would disagree with a straight face, youre both right here, it's just a fun game to count them, since Milan started doing it in 2007 to claim to be the biggest club in the world.
UEFA Cup used to be a top competition. To demonstrate, picture this:
Real, Juve, Liverpool, Bayern, PSG, Porto, Ajax etc. in the CL while:
barca, Atletico, Sevilla, City, Chelsea, United, inter, Lazio, Atalanta, Dortmund, Leipzig, Gladbach(?), Benfica, PSV, Marseille(?) etc. make it to UEFA Cup. Would you say it's inferior to the above? It's a different competition in the 90s and prior completely to today, that's why Bayerns, Juventus', inters, Reals, victories in it are more valuable than some recent ones. Compare the difficulty to the early CL editions and you get a even better understanding at what the UEFA Cup once was.
I would also like to separate the Super Cup and World Cup from the others. Those are (in the words of tuz) 'glorified friendlies' and can't hold the same value as a competition that is played over an entire season. So if you would want to value them accordingly, I'd say CL is 5, EL is 4, Cup winners Cup 3, and the other two a 1. Though that's still flawed because again, CL in the 60s =/= CL today and UEFA Cup in the 90s =/= EL today. There is really no proper way to evaluate it properly unless you do tons of research, which no one will bother to
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I don't see how a barca fan would disagree with a straight face, youre both right here, it's just a fun game to count them, since Milan started doing it in 2007 to claim to be the biggest club in the world.
UEFA Cup used to be a top competition. To demonstrate, picture this:
Real, Juve, Liverpool, Bayern, PSG, Porto, Ajax etc. in the CL while:
barca, Atletico, Sevilla, City, Chelsea, United, inter, Lazio, Atalanta, Dortmund, Leipzig, Gladbach(?), Benfica, PSV, Marseille(?) etc. make it to UEFA Cup. Would you say it's inferior to the above? It's a different competition in the 90s and prior completely to today, that's why Bayerns, Juventus', inters, Reals, victories in it are more valuable than some recent ones. Compare the difficulty to the early CL editions and you get a even better understanding at what the UEFA Cup once was.
I would also like to separate the Super Cup and World Cup from the others. Those are (in the words of tuz) 'glorified friendlies' and can't hold the same value as a competition that is played over an entire season. So if you would want to value them accordingly, I'd say CL is 5, EL is 4, Cup winners Cup 3, and the other two a 1. Though that's still flawed because again, CL in the 60s =/= CL today and UEFA Cup in the 90s =/= EL today. There is really no proper way to evaluate it properly unless you do tons of research, which no one will bother to
I also forgot to say that it was Barca I meant won 3 Inter Cities fairs cup. Some might look at their 18 European Honours and think "wow", they're the second greatest only to Real Madrid, but that's just not true imo. Inter Cities Fairs Cup is not really something I would put value into, definitely below the Uefa Cup Winners Cup.
Inter Cities Fairs Cup seems to have been more like friendlies, same with the Toto Cup which no one really took serious.
That was no official competition, it's like the International Champions Cup today, friendly tournament that was played by random teams based on no rating at all. Only after UEFA took it over and made the UEFA Cup did it become a relevant competition. It's like taking the Mitropa Cup seriously.
Intertoto Cup was kinda different. It was a official UEFA tournament and it gave you qualification to the UEFA Cup. It's a small competition but a relevant one regardless
Intertoto Cup was kinda different. It was a official UEFA tournament and it gave you qualification to the UEFA Cup. It's a small competition but a relevant one regardless
I truly admire Bayern for what they’ve achieved in recent years and for their stature in Europe. However, it’s not unfounded to say that they are what they are in Germany due to the lack of a direct rivals who have the same resources they do, more or less. In England, Liverpool faces eternal rivalry with MU, there’s also Arsenal and Chelsea, most recently emerging teams like Tottenham and MC. Despite of that, Liverpool still managed to win the same number of CL’s as Bayern. In Spain, Real never had it easy as they have a ferocious sporting/political rivalry with Barça who still managed to win the CL 5 times, 1 less than Bayern.
Bayern deserve all the allure about them but I think Real is by far the GOAT of club football, 2nd to 5th place are very debatable.
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Bayern deserve all the allure about them but I think Real is by far the GOAT of club football, 2nd to 5th place are very debatable.
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Real is definitely the GOAT of clubs over the last 100+ years, but I said last 50 years because it makes for a more interesting discussion, and it's not as clear cut 
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You are just pulling out an arbitrary number just to make Bayern look good.
Real Madrid have won 7 CL's in the Champions league era while Bayern have won 3. The Champions league format is a far better metric to judge European dominance than over 4-5 decades purely because you had higher quality teams competing in the competition as opposed to the old format.
Real Madrid have won 7 CL's in the Champions league era while Bayern have won 3. The Champions league format is a far better metric to judge European dominance than over 4-5 decades purely because you had higher quality teams competing in the competition as opposed to the old format.
Why would I want to make Bayern look good Bro? I'm a Juventus supporter through and through. I can guarantee you, we won't look good with any metric 
I just want to initiate a healthy debate
I just want to initiate a healthy debate
Madrid >>> anyone in any era of European football
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In CL era
Madrid - 7 CL's 7 finals
Barca - 4 CL's 5 finals
Bayern - 3 CL's 6 finals
Milan - 3 CL's 6 finals
United - 2 CL's 4 finals
Liverpool - 2 CL's 4 finals
Juventus - 1 CL 6 finals (
)
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