What about their denial to the Armenian genocide and their death penalty that they won't give up on?
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Cartoon anger is a misrepresentation (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Zé Tahir
- Start date
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True, but what realistic benefit does an eu citizen have from other new members, Slovakia, Malta, or future members like Romania and Bulgaria?
I personaly dont see how they are in any better economic or other state than Turkey, yet they are being accepted. That would mean that realigion is the only major issue regarding Turkey's addmitance. And I personaly think that the Turks are the most westernized muslim nation if you will.
In fact, the only muslims that are closer to the western lifestyle are Bosnian muslims, which are, in fact, regarded as the most "european" muslims, in terms of religion, culture, life style, etc, and I personaly can testify to that. I have a lot of friends that go to the mosque once a week (fridays), that have negative opinions about the cartoons, that believe in god, but at the same time who are no different that "europeans", that get drunk on the weekends (well, actually, round here Thursdays the new Saturdays
), etc. See my point.Accept us into the Eu then, you'll like us
The right to freedom of speech have responsibilities with it too...yes he might had the right to do that(but in islam you are not allowed to show graphic picture of a prohphet)..but again. you also have to look at it from a muslim point of view....you cant just draw a prophet with a bomb and not expect reactions...its somehow offensive....we as muslims respect the prophet mohammed and the others..but i also dont agree with what is happeneing in middle-east were people are burning embacy and killing people..its just making the matter worse..but i understand the frustrations...this hole thing might deliberately have fuelled to promote these actions but no doubt it helped sell a few papers in the process.
TEHRAN, Iran Feb 7, 2006 (AP)— A prominent Iranian newspaper says it is going to hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West will apply the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide against Jews as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.
Hamshahri, which is among the top five of Iran's mass circulation papers, made clear the contest is a reaction to European newspapers' publication of Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, which have led to demonstrations, boycotts and attacks on European embassies across the Islamic world.
Hundreds of Iranians hurled stones, and sometimes gasoline bombs, at the Danish and Austrian embassies in Tehran in protest against the cartoons on Monday. The Austrian mission was targeted as the country currently holds the EU presidency.
The newspaper said Tuesday the contest would be launched on Feb. 13 and would be co-convened by itself and the House of Caricatures, a Tehran exhibition center for cartoons. Both the paper and the cartoon center are owned by the Tehran Municipality, which is dominated by allies of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is well known for his opposition to Israel.
Last year Ahmadinejad provoked outcries when he said on separate occasions that Israel should be "wiped out" and the Holocaust was a "myth."
Hamshahri invited foreign cartoonists to enter the competition and said it wanted to see how open the West was to caricatures of the Holocaust.
"Does the West extend freedom of expression to the crimes committed by the United States and Israel, or an event such as the Holocaust? Or is its freedom only for insulting religious sanctities?" Hamshahri wrote, referring to the Prophet Muhammad cartoons, in a short article on its back page.
The paper disclosed its plan to hold the competition in an inside page on Monday, saying it would announce details on Tuesday. But Tuesday's edition said the plans would be published next Monday.
Meanwhile, state television reported Tuesday that Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki had called his Danish counterpart, Per Stig Moeller, and urged Copenhagen and other European governments to "compensate for their mistake" in publishing the drawings.
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wonderful....lets just show were no better than those who posted the cartoons in the Danish newspaper
I dont remember the Jews posting those cartoons in ANY newspaper, so lets bring them into this, and throw them under the bus...
good job Iran !!!
Hamshahri, which is among the top five of Iran's mass circulation papers, made clear the contest is a reaction to European newspapers' publication of Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, which have led to demonstrations, boycotts and attacks on European embassies across the Islamic world.
Hundreds of Iranians hurled stones, and sometimes gasoline bombs, at the Danish and Austrian embassies in Tehran in protest against the cartoons on Monday. The Austrian mission was targeted as the country currently holds the EU presidency.
The newspaper said Tuesday the contest would be launched on Feb. 13 and would be co-convened by itself and the House of Caricatures, a Tehran exhibition center for cartoons. Both the paper and the cartoon center are owned by the Tehran Municipality, which is dominated by allies of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is well known for his opposition to Israel.
Last year Ahmadinejad provoked outcries when he said on separate occasions that Israel should be "wiped out" and the Holocaust was a "myth."
Hamshahri invited foreign cartoonists to enter the competition and said it wanted to see how open the West was to caricatures of the Holocaust.
"Does the West extend freedom of expression to the crimes committed by the United States and Israel, or an event such as the Holocaust? Or is its freedom only for insulting religious sanctities?" Hamshahri wrote, referring to the Prophet Muhammad cartoons, in a short article on its back page.
The paper disclosed its plan to hold the competition in an inside page on Monday, saying it would announce details on Tuesday. But Tuesday's edition said the plans would be published next Monday.
Meanwhile, state television reported Tuesday that Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki had called his Danish counterpart, Per Stig Moeller, and urged Copenhagen and other European governments to "compensate for their mistake" in publishing the drawings.
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wonderful....lets just show were no better than those who posted the cartoons in the Danish newspaper
I dont remember the Jews posting those cartoons in ANY newspaper, so lets bring them into this, and throw them under the bus...
good job Iran !!!
I have not commented on this issue yet, mainly due to the fear that I might not be understood (or misunderstood) by the non-muslims on this forum. But this issue has been troubling me for the past days, and the more I watch the news I get more and more ambivalent. On one part I feel proud that the Muslims are united in defending their prophet, and on the other part I feel appalled by the escalation of violence and the killing and beheading threats I see on TV. This violence has alarmed me that I should speak up, I feel it is my duty to say what I am about to say right now. But before I start I am want to lay down some ground rules:
1-I cannot emphasize on this enough, but any violence that has occured in the past week is totally unacceptable in Islam, and certainly not by me. The incedents in Al-Ashrafiya in Lebanon, the burning of embassies in Syria and Iran, the death threats...etc, all of this I am pretty sure that if Prophet Muhammad was here, he would be never approve any of it. "Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" 53:38, is one of the instances in the Quran.
2-Muslims act as if they are not to be blamed. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims failed on two fronts. They failed on in conveying the greatness of the prophet, either by their day to day acts or simply not educating the West about him. And by the terrorist attacks done in the name of Islam.
Ok let's cut to the chase. The thing that I believe most non-muslims don't comprehend how revered Mohammad to Muslims. I am willing bet my bottom dollar that any Muslim, no matter how old he/she is and no matter how pious or heedless he/she may be, that he/she loves Mohammed more than his mother, father, family, and himself/herself. Ask any Muslim whether in Indonesia, Eygpt, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, or any Muslim nation, you will undoubtly get the same answer. "I give my soul, my childeren, and everything I hold dear in my heart for him" that would be the answer. Ask any Egyptian "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Egypt?", any Saudi "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Saudi Arabia?", any Pakistani "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Pakistan?", they will all answer you in one voice "the Prophet Mohammad". I hope this just brings you closer to understand how he is respected by Muslims.
Now I am sure that all of you do not condone racism in any sort, most of you would be appalled by any anti-Semitic comments. Yet, it seems to me that there lies a contradiction between resisting racism and anti-Semitism on one hand, while humilating 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. If you only comprehended what the Prophet meant to Muslims, only then you will understand how grave belittling him would be. Don't rebutle saying its satire, comedy, or carcuitares, trust me its even worse that way. As such veihcles of speech do not really hold opinion or arguments that one could prove wrong.
Now I am not against freedom of speech, on the contrary I am totally fascinated by it. Even the Quran has encouraged the use of the mind and thinking critically. But also respect is a must! I believe if the cartoons were just drawings with no dregatory hints in them, none of all this happened. The lack of respect is what caused this, there was no opinion, no argument no nothing just sheer lack of respect. Remember how Robert Kilroy-Silk was fired because his anti-arab rants? Well the cartoons are like that just multiplied by a 1000.
One last thing that I would like to note, Muslims and I consider Mohammed as the greatest human being that ever walked on earth. Now I don't want to impose him on you guys, but I think it is pretty safe that he is ONE of the greatest. I advise anyone doubting that, he/she should look it up. And I don't mean google it (since there are lots of shit out there), but go back to real books, read about him don't read books about Islam, just read credible history books about Mohammed and his life. Read what Ghandi or Sir George Bernard Shaw had to say about him.
This offence was not a slap on the face of Muslims only, it was a slap in the face of civilisation, humankind, and all the good in this world. Mohammed was great in all aspects of his life. He was a great prophet, father, husband, politician, warrior, and diplomat. He was great morally, he was great in forgiveness, he was great in voluntary renunciation of worldly luxeries, he was great in every possible way. I could give you ample examples, but you have been patient enough to read this much and I should not abuse that. But I am going to give you one example that is relevant to our world today, and both Muslims and non-Muslims could learn a lesson or two from it:
World greats are and should be respected by all, and Mohammed is one of them, if not on the top. The world should be all proud of him, whether Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, or any other religion (yes that includes Athiests).
1-I cannot emphasize on this enough, but any violence that has occured in the past week is totally unacceptable in Islam, and certainly not by me. The incedents in Al-Ashrafiya in Lebanon, the burning of embassies in Syria and Iran, the death threats...etc, all of this I am pretty sure that if Prophet Muhammad was here, he would be never approve any of it. "Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" 53:38, is one of the instances in the Quran.
2-Muslims act as if they are not to be blamed. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims failed on two fronts. They failed on in conveying the greatness of the prophet, either by their day to day acts or simply not educating the West about him. And by the terrorist attacks done in the name of Islam.
Ok let's cut to the chase. The thing that I believe most non-muslims don't comprehend how revered Mohammad to Muslims. I am willing bet my bottom dollar that any Muslim, no matter how old he/she is and no matter how pious or heedless he/she may be, that he/she loves Mohammed more than his mother, father, family, and himself/herself. Ask any Muslim whether in Indonesia, Eygpt, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, or any Muslim nation, you will undoubtly get the same answer. "I give my soul, my childeren, and everything I hold dear in my heart for him" that would be the answer. Ask any Egyptian "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Egypt?", any Saudi "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Saudi Arabia?", any Pakistani "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Pakistan?", they will all answer you in one voice "the Prophet Mohammad". I hope this just brings you closer to understand how he is respected by Muslims.
Now I am sure that all of you do not condone racism in any sort, most of you would be appalled by any anti-Semitic comments. Yet, it seems to me that there lies a contradiction between resisting racism and anti-Semitism on one hand, while humilating 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. If you only comprehended what the Prophet meant to Muslims, only then you will understand how grave belittling him would be. Don't rebutle saying its satire, comedy, or carcuitares, trust me its even worse that way. As such veihcles of speech do not really hold opinion or arguments that one could prove wrong.
Now I am not against freedom of speech, on the contrary I am totally fascinated by it. Even the Quran has encouraged the use of the mind and thinking critically. But also respect is a must! I believe if the cartoons were just drawings with no dregatory hints in them, none of all this happened. The lack of respect is what caused this, there was no opinion, no argument no nothing just sheer lack of respect. Remember how Robert Kilroy-Silk was fired because his anti-arab rants? Well the cartoons are like that just multiplied by a 1000.
One last thing that I would like to note, Muslims and I consider Mohammed as the greatest human being that ever walked on earth. Now I don't want to impose him on you guys, but I think it is pretty safe that he is ONE of the greatest. I advise anyone doubting that, he/she should look it up. And I don't mean google it (since there are lots of shit out there), but go back to real books, read about him don't read books about Islam, just read credible history books about Mohammed and his life. Read what Ghandi or Sir George Bernard Shaw had to say about him.
This offence was not a slap on the face of Muslims only, it was a slap in the face of civilisation, humankind, and all the good in this world. Mohammed was great in all aspects of his life. He was a great prophet, father, husband, politician, warrior, and diplomat. He was great morally, he was great in forgiveness, he was great in voluntary renunciation of worldly luxeries, he was great in every possible way. I could give you ample examples, but you have been patient enough to read this much and I should not abuse that
. But I am going to give you one example that is relevant to our world today, and both Muslims and non-Muslims could learn a lesson or two from it:World greats are and should be respected by all, and Mohammed is one of them, if not on the top. The world should be all proud of him, whether Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, or any other religion (yes that includes Athiests).
Actually, they'll become EU citizens. The fact that there are third and fourth generation Turkish immigrants in Germany who don't qualify for a German passport strikes me as shameful. By comparison, families in the US for that length of time tend to be integrated into US society.
You da man! +rep for maturity.
Zé Tahir said:
Swag and Mikhail, I don't appreciate you posting those pictures, but I can't ask you to remove them, I can simply not look Just pointing it out though.
Just pointing it out though.
Rami said:
I have not commented on this issue yet, mainly due to the fear that I might not be understood (or misunderstood) by the non-muslims on this forum. But this issue has been troubling me for the past days, and the more I watch the news I get more and more ambivalent. On one part I feel proud that the Muslims are united in defending their prophet, and on the other part I feel appalled by the escalation of violence and the killing and beheading threats I see on TV. This violence has alarmed me that I should speak up, I feel it is my duty to say what I am about to say right now. But before I start I am want to lay down some ground rules:
1-I cannot emphasize on this enough, but any violence that has occured in the past week is totally unacceptable in Islam, and certainly not by me. The incedents in Al-Ashrafiya in Lebanon, the burning of embassies in Syria and Iran, the death threats...etc, all of this I am pretty sure that if Prophet Muhammad was here, he would be never approve any of it. "Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" 53:38, is one of the instances in the Quran.
2-Muslims act as if they are not to be blamed. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims failed on two fronts. They failed on in conveying the greatness of the prophet, either by their day to day acts or simply not educating the West about him. And by the terrorist attacks done in the name of Islam.
Ok let's cut to the chase. The thing that I believe most non-muslims don't comprehend how revered Mohammad to Muslims. I am willing bet my bottom dollar that any Muslim, no matter how old he/she is and no matter how pious or heedless he/she may be, that he/she loves Mohammed more than his mother, father, family, and himself/herself. Ask any Muslim whether in Indonesia, Eygpt, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, or any Muslim nation, you will undoubtly get the same answer. "I give my soul, my childeren, and everything I hold dear in my heart for him" that would be the answer. Ask any Egyptian "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Egypt?", any Saudi "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Saudi Arabia?", any Pakistani "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Pakistan?", they will all answer you in one voice "the Prophet Mohammad". I hope this just brings you closer to understand how he is respected by Muslims.
Now I am sure that all of you do not condone racism in any sort, most of you would be appalled by any anti-Semitic comments. Yet, it seems to me that there lies a contradiction between resisting racism and anti-Semitism on one hand, while humilating 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. If you only comprehended what the Prophet meant to Muslims, only then you will understand how grave belittling him would be. Don't rebutle saying its satire, comedy, or carcuitares, trust me its even worse that way. As such veihcles of speech do not really hold opinion or arguments that one could prove wrong.
Now I am not against freedom of speech, on the contrary I am totally fascinated by it. Even the Quran has encouraged the use of the mind and thinking critically. But also respect is a must! I believe if the cartoons were just drawings with no dregatory hints in them, none of all this happened. The lack of respect is what caused this, there was no opinion, no argument no nothing just sheer lack of respect. Remember how Robert Kilroy-Silk was fired because his anti-arab rants? Well the cartoons are like that just multiplied by a 1000.
One last thing that I would like to note, Muslims and I consider Mohammed as the greatest human being that ever walked on earth. Now I don't want to impose him on you guys, but I think it is pretty safe that he is ONE of the greatest. I advise anyone doubting that, he/she should look it up. And I don't mean google it (since there are lots of shit out there), but go back to real books, read about him don't read books about Islam, just read credible history books about Mohammed and his life. Read what Ghandi or Sir George Bernard Shaw had to say about him.
This offence was not a slap on the face of Muslims only, it was a slap in the face of civilisation, humankind, and all the good in this world. Mohammed was great in all aspects of his life. He was a great prophet, father, husband, politician, warrior, and diplomat. He was great morally, he was great in forgiveness, he was great in voluntary renunciation of worldly luxeries, he was great in every possible way. I could give you ample examples, but you have been patient enough to read this much and I should not abuse that. But I am going to give you one example that is relevant to our world today, and both Muslims and non-Muslims could learn a lesson or two from it:
World greats are and should be respected by all, and Mohammed is one of them, if not on the top. The world should be all proud of him, whether Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, or any other religion (yes that includes Athiests).
1-I cannot emphasize on this enough, but any violence that has occured in the past week is totally unacceptable in Islam, and certainly not by me. The incedents in Al-Ashrafiya in Lebanon, the burning of embassies in Syria and Iran, the death threats...etc, all of this I am pretty sure that if Prophet Muhammad was here, he would be never approve any of it. "Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" 53:38, is one of the instances in the Quran.
2-Muslims act as if they are not to be blamed. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims failed on two fronts. They failed on in conveying the greatness of the prophet, either by their day to day acts or simply not educating the West about him. And by the terrorist attacks done in the name of Islam.
Ok let's cut to the chase. The thing that I believe most non-muslims don't comprehend how revered Mohammad to Muslims. I am willing bet my bottom dollar that any Muslim, no matter how old he/she is and no matter how pious or heedless he/she may be, that he/she loves Mohammed more than his mother, father, family, and himself/herself. Ask any Muslim whether in Indonesia, Eygpt, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, or any Muslim nation, you will undoubtly get the same answer. "I give my soul, my childeren, and everything I hold dear in my heart for him" that would be the answer. Ask any Egyptian "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Egypt?", any Saudi "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Saudi Arabia?", any Pakistani "Who is dearer, the Prophet or Pakistan?", they will all answer you in one voice "the Prophet Mohammad". I hope this just brings you closer to understand how he is respected by Muslims.
Now I am sure that all of you do not condone racism in any sort, most of you would be appalled by any anti-Semitic comments. Yet, it seems to me that there lies a contradiction between resisting racism and anti-Semitism on one hand, while humilating 1.5 billion Muslims around the world. If you only comprehended what the Prophet meant to Muslims, only then you will understand how grave belittling him would be. Don't rebutle saying its satire, comedy, or carcuitares, trust me its even worse that way. As such veihcles of speech do not really hold opinion or arguments that one could prove wrong.
Now I am not against freedom of speech, on the contrary I am totally fascinated by it. Even the Quran has encouraged the use of the mind and thinking critically. But also respect is a must! I believe if the cartoons were just drawings with no dregatory hints in them, none of all this happened. The lack of respect is what caused this, there was no opinion, no argument no nothing just sheer lack of respect. Remember how Robert Kilroy-Silk was fired because his anti-arab rants? Well the cartoons are like that just multiplied by a 1000.
One last thing that I would like to note, Muslims and I consider Mohammed as the greatest human being that ever walked on earth. Now I don't want to impose him on you guys, but I think it is pretty safe that he is ONE of the greatest. I advise anyone doubting that, he/she should look it up. And I don't mean google it (since there are lots of shit out there), but go back to real books, read about him don't read books about Islam, just read credible history books about Mohammed and his life. Read what Ghandi or Sir George Bernard Shaw had to say about him.
This offence was not a slap on the face of Muslims only, it was a slap in the face of civilisation, humankind, and all the good in this world. Mohammed was great in all aspects of his life. He was a great prophet, father, husband, politician, warrior, and diplomat. He was great morally, he was great in forgiveness, he was great in voluntary renunciation of worldly luxeries, he was great in every possible way. I could give you ample examples, but you have been patient enough to read this much and I should not abuse that
. But I am going to give you one example that is relevant to our world today, and both Muslims and non-Muslims could learn a lesson or two from it:World greats are and should be respected by all, and Mohammed is one of them, if not on the top. The world should be all proud of him, whether Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, or any other religion (yes that includes Athiests).
BTW this is exactly how I think too.
I think you'll find that most people here are willing to give anyone an airing. You've expressed your views well here.
That's good to hear. I think most westerners can understand Muslims being offended, but it's the nature of the reprisals that's been shocking - cartoons have been met with widespread misdirected violence.
I forever fail to understand how people can kill in the name of a religion that forbids killing, be violent in the name of a religion of peace. Base human nature, manipulation of the ignorant... blame it on what you will, it's greatly saddening for us all.
I can understand it. I've seen how Christians react to their faith being challenged.
It is the crux of the matter, isn't it. I'm not entirely sure where I stand here. Should your beliefs be foisted on the Danes? Probably not. Should they have published cartoons they knew would offend? Probably not.
The argument that it's not satire doesn't wash with me though. The violent reaction has done more to reinforce negative steriotypes of Muslims in the west than all the cartoons in Denmark ever could. In a sense, the Danes made a point - they pointed out that some guy couldn't get anyone to illustrate his children's book about Mohammed because of fears of Islamic reprisal. They demonstrated that they were right. How is that right, that a man can't write a children's book without reprisal? :frown:
Great enough to endure a picture of him being drawn? Would he be so insecure in his own greatness?
That's good to hear. I think most westerners can understand Muslims being offended, but it's the nature of the reprisals that's been shocking - cartoons have been met with widespread misdirected violence.
I forever fail to understand how people can kill in the name of a religion that forbids killing, be violent in the name of a religion of peace. Base human nature, manipulation of the ignorant... blame it on what you will, it's greatly saddening for us all.
I can understand it. I've seen how Christians react to their faith being challenged.
It is the crux of the matter, isn't it. I'm not entirely sure where I stand here. Should your beliefs be foisted on the Danes? Probably not. Should they have published cartoons they knew would offend? Probably not.
The argument that it's not satire doesn't wash with me though. The violent reaction has done more to reinforce negative steriotypes of Muslims in the west than all the cartoons in Denmark ever could. In a sense, the Danes made a point - they pointed out that some guy couldn't get anyone to illustrate his children's book about Mohammed because of fears of Islamic reprisal. They demonstrated that they were right. How is that right, that a man can't write a children's book without reprisal? :frown:
Great enough to endure a picture of him being drawn? Would he be so insecure in his own greatness?