That guy is another Kris Voakes. I Hardly ever visit goal.com these days, and never read the editorials/analyses. The website is as bad as bleacher report.
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Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (18 Viewers)
- Thread starter gsol
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I think you are being overly cynical in your post. Of course there are grey areas that some sports team and athletes are more willing to explore than others. You are seriously telling me that every sports team or athlete will use any means possible to enhance performance as long as it is legal, ignoring possible long term effects of overusing drugs or mixing drugs which combinations has not been tested. I think that most or at least some teams will have some kind of ethical rules and guidelines that their employees are expected to obey, to prevent long term damage to players or the clubs image.
I can agree with saying I am cynical. I've been around high performance Olympic sports programs my entire life. My uncle coached the national freestyle wrestling team here in Canada for 12 years. He was high performance director for Snowboard Canada leading into the 2010 Winter Olympics. Supplementation is massive in high performance sport. Not to mention illegal PEDs are far more prevalent than the average person believes in Olympic sports and even more so in professional sports due to money involved.
The problem is the supplement industry is absurdly under regulated. Testing is nowhere near as stringent as with pharmaceuticals, so it's a basically anything goes kind of industry with a lot of drugs and supplements having shown performance benefits in studies that don't look at long-term side effects at all. These supplements aren't going to undergo 10-20 year plus trails to determine long term health consequences. And athletes are going to take them because the difference between players and athletes who make it and those who don't is very very slim and the amount of money involved makes taking that risk very very worthwhile. It makes it so worthwhile that even with slightly more stringent drug testing for banned substances athletes are still willing to run that risk, both in terms of getting caught and banned and in terms of long term consequences for health. Hence the reason things like Balco happened and Cycling and operacion puerta. If you think this isn't happening in all major sports on all successful teams, I just see that as very naive. If the incentive for athletes to use these things is huge, the incentive for teams and programs involved is far greater due to the much larger amount of money and prestige involved. As well the vast difference between heavily tested Olympic sports and professional sports like football, basketball, baseball, hockey, American football, with very poor testing.
This is the Telegraph so take it with a grain of salt, but in essence it is correct. Blood doping and PED use, both legal and banned is pernicious and integral to high performance sport. There's a reason records are still broken and athletes keep improving upon results by known PED users of the recent past.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...g-scandal-as-Operation-Puerto-resurfaces.html
The problem is the supplement industry is absurdly under regulated. Testing is nowhere near as stringent as with pharmaceuticals, so it's a basically anything goes kind of industry with a lot of drugs and supplements having shown performance benefits in studies that don't look at long-term side effects at all. These supplements aren't going to undergo 10-20 year plus trails to determine long term health consequences. And athletes are going to take them because the difference between players and athletes who make it and those who don't is very very slim and the amount of money involved makes taking that risk very very worthwhile. It makes it so worthwhile that even with slightly more stringent drug testing for banned substances athletes are still willing to run that risk, both in terms of getting caught and banned and in terms of long term consequences for health. Hence the reason things like Balco happened and Cycling and operacion puerta. If you think this isn't happening in all major sports on all successful teams, I just see that as very naive. If the incentive for athletes to use these things is huge, the incentive for teams and programs involved is far greater due to the much larger amount of money and prestige involved. As well the vast difference between heavily tested Olympic sports and professional sports like football, basketball, baseball, hockey, American football, with very poor testing.
This is the Telegraph so take it with a grain of salt, but in essence it is correct. Blood doping and PED use, both legal and banned is pernicious and integral to high performance sport. There's a reason records are still broken and athletes keep improving upon results by known PED users of the recent past.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...g-scandal-as-Operation-Puerto-resurfaces.html
I have no doubt that these tings are going on, especially in endurance sports. I think the problem is there in football as well, but not on the same scale as in for example cycling or athletics, because the benefits of using performance enhancing supplements or drugs in a team sport, where tactics and technic has a greater impact than enhancing the physical performance by 0,5 % or 1 %, is not that significant on teams performance. But then again it could just be me being naive. I have been surprised before.
No matter how common the use are it is still my personal opinion, that sublements or drugs should not be used unless it is tested sufficiently, even though it might be legal to take. I dont have an opinion on where exactly the boundaries should be because I dont have enough knowledge of the subject to have an informed opinion, but I think it is a problem if the attitude is that as long as drugs are legal, there is no problems using them no matter what the consequences might be in the future.
About the use of medicine in Juve between 94-98, I think that the statement, that the club had enough medicine to supply a small hospital, is worrying to say the least, and it could be a sign, that players were filled with different kinds of performance enhancing drugs (legal), without the club sufficiently knowing the long term effects of experimenting with different drugs and combination of drugs.
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It could be quite interesting to hear the professional powerlifter opinion on the subject.
No matter how common the use are it is still my personal opinion, that sublements or drugs should not be used unless it is tested sufficiently, even though it might be legal to take. I dont have an opinion on where exactly the boundaries should be because I dont have enough knowledge of the subject to have an informed opinion, but I think it is a problem if the attitude is that as long as drugs are legal, there is no problems using them no matter what the consequences might be in the future.
About the use of medicine in Juve between 94-98, I think that the statement, that the club had enough medicine to supply a small hospital, is worrying to say the least, and it could be a sign, that players were filled with different kinds of performance enhancing drugs (legal), without the club sufficiently knowing the long term effects of experimenting with different drugs and combination of drugs.
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It could be quite interesting to hear the professional powerlifter opinion on the subject.
But in the mid-90s it wasn't just Juventus, even the article talks about a Parma player using Neoton. It was all big clubs. If your club had the money they were involved in it. Same deal with all sports. It really doesn't matter if it's a team sport or not. Physical fitness advantages are huge. Because being technically a genius is fantastic, but being a technical genius who is also a physical God is that much better.
I would say 99.9% that both Messi and Ronaldo are taking huge supplement and drug regimes to enhance performance and I'd also bet they're both taking banned PEDs. The same with pretty much every player at every big money club in the sport. The benefits are just too big, to not take the risk.
I agree with you 100% that better testing should be done, but the deregulation of the supplement industry has made that very unlikely, as does the fact that there is no standard from one country to the next. FDA hasn't approved, go somewhere else to get it if you're American.
I would say 99.9% that both Messi and Ronaldo are taking huge supplement and drug regimes to enhance performance and I'd also bet they're both taking banned PEDs. The same with pretty much every player at every big money club in the sport. The benefits are just too big, to not take the risk.
I agree with you 100% that better testing should be done, but the deregulation of the supplement industry has made that very unlikely, as does the fact that there is no standard from one country to the next. FDA hasn't approved, go somewhere else to get it if you're American.
Hmmm.. Tbh I think it's very doubtful either of them is. They have physiques that are achievable through hard work, do not run significantly more than others anyway and are probably the two most drug tested athletes in the world. Not to mention the tragedy that would occur if either of them got caught.
Apart from recovery I also think football is a sport where peds might not have a clearcut effect on a player's game. It would be tough to measure that's for sure.
Apart from recovery I also think football is a sport where peds might not have a clearcut effect on a player's game. It would be tough to measure that's for sure.
They have a significant impact in every sport. Even Amphetamine like drugs like adderall would have huge benefits for a futbol player. As would any endurance drug like EPO. Having more energy late in games would be huge.
And it's pretty much undeniable that they'd be on a huge number of legal supplements.
As well as things like Operacion Puerto having significant links to both Barca and Real Madrid and the ability of both C Ronaldo and Messi to seemingly play every game in every competition without ever looking like built-up muscular fatigue is affecting them. This is evidence of blood doping.
And there's no way they're even anywhere near the most tested athletes on the planet. Futbol is one of the least tested and under-regulated sports out there as far as doping goes. FIFA was the last of the Olympic sports to agree to anti-doping. UEFA still does very few tests, players are rarely tested more than once or twice a year.
As far as tragedy goes, that didn't stop Lance Armstrong, or Roger Clemens, or Barry Bonds, or Carl Lewis, or Ben Johnson, or Marion Jones... Not to mention countless others who haven't had as much success with it.
All these people used drugs to try to go from great to the best of all time. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if many footballers were attempting the same.
And looking at physique has nothing to do with PEDs in performance sport. This isn't bodybuilding. EPO and blood doping aren't taken for physique
And it's pretty much undeniable that they'd be on a huge number of legal supplements.
As well as things like Operacion Puerto having significant links to both Barca and Real Madrid and the ability of both C Ronaldo and Messi to seemingly play every game in every competition without ever looking like built-up muscular fatigue is affecting them. This is evidence of blood doping.
And there's no way they're even anywhere near the most tested athletes on the planet. Futbol is one of the least tested and under-regulated sports out there as far as doping goes. FIFA was the last of the Olympic sports to agree to anti-doping. UEFA still does very few tests, players are rarely tested more than once or twice a year.
As far as tragedy goes, that didn't stop Lance Armstrong, or Roger Clemens, or Barry Bonds, or Carl Lewis, or Ben Johnson, or Marion Jones... Not to mention countless others who haven't had as much success with it.
All these people used drugs to try to go from great to the best of all time. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if many footballers were attempting the same.
And looking at physique has nothing to do with PEDs in performance sport. This isn't bodybuilding. EPO and blood doping aren't taken for physique
Just look at the NBA and their ridiculous testing system and bans:
"NEW YORK — The NBA and the National Basketball Players Association announced today that blood testing for Human Growth Hormone (HGH) will commence under the league's anti-drug program, effective with the 2015-16 NBA season.
As part of the collective bargaining negotiations in 2011, the NBA and the Players Association agreed to a process for determining how HGH blood testing would be implemented in the NBA. With that process now completed, beginning with the start of 2015 NBA training camps, all NBA players will be subject to three random, unannounced HGH tests annually (two in-season, one off-season), and players will also be subject to reasonable cause testing for HGH.
If a player tests positive for HGH, he will be suspended 20 games for his first violation and 45 games for his second violation, and he will be dismissed and disqualified from the NBA for his third violation."
http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/16/nba-and-nbpa-to-introduce-hgh-blood-testing/
Even if you fail twice at the doping test you will miss only a half season (a little bit more).
"NEW YORK — The NBA and the National Basketball Players Association announced today that blood testing for Human Growth Hormone (HGH) will commence under the league's anti-drug program, effective with the 2015-16 NBA season.
As part of the collective bargaining negotiations in 2011, the NBA and the Players Association agreed to a process for determining how HGH blood testing would be implemented in the NBA. With that process now completed, beginning with the start of 2015 NBA training camps, all NBA players will be subject to three random, unannounced HGH tests annually (two in-season, one off-season), and players will also be subject to reasonable cause testing for HGH.
If a player tests positive for HGH, he will be suspended 20 games for his first violation and 45 games for his second violation, and he will be dismissed and disqualified from the NBA for his third violation."
http://www.nba.com/2015/news/04/16/nba-and-nbpa-to-introduce-hgh-blood-testing/
Even if you fail twice at the doping test you will miss only a half season (a little bit more).
Amphetamines would benefit them, but they'd also get caught.
I mean physique as in: the amount of muscle mass they have and their physical performance. Ronaldo is fast, but his sprinting is normal. They both don't run excessively. Neither have body fat percentages that are not achievable through hard work.
There's also no way Ronaldo is tested once or twice a year. Players in Belgium are routinely tested, even those playing in the 2nd and sometimes even 3d division. I personally have a friend who failed a drug test when he was playing 1st division futsal. Also, remember Ronaldo got angry last year because of the repeated testing: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/cristiano-ronaldo-gets-angry-doping-6680391
Armstrong, Lewis or Marion Jones don't even compare to Messi or Ronaldo. They are most likely better athletes and their achievements were tremendous. But in terms of fame they don't come close. Messi and Ronaldo are as well known as Obama. Almost everyone on this Earth knows who they are.
Also remember that these guys don't really have an off season. In other sports it is sometimes possible to tinker with PEDs in training and get off them in time for competition. That is not a possibility with football.
If they cheat, it would almost have to be genetic doping imo.
Last but not least, the presumption of innocence would be nice, dude.
I mean physique as in: the amount of muscle mass they have and their physical performance. Ronaldo is fast, but his sprinting is normal. They both don't run excessively. Neither have body fat percentages that are not achievable through hard work.
There's also no way Ronaldo is tested once or twice a year. Players in Belgium are routinely tested, even those playing in the 2nd and sometimes even 3d division. I personally have a friend who failed a drug test when he was playing 1st division futsal. Also, remember Ronaldo got angry last year because of the repeated testing: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/cristiano-ronaldo-gets-angry-doping-6680391
Armstrong, Lewis or Marion Jones don't even compare to Messi or Ronaldo. They are most likely better athletes and their achievements were tremendous. But in terms of fame they don't come close. Messi and Ronaldo are as well known as Obama. Almost everyone on this Earth knows who they are.
Also remember that these guys don't really have an off season. In other sports it is sometimes possible to tinker with PEDs in training and get off them in time for competition. That is not a possibility with football.
If they cheat, it would almost have to be genetic doping imo.
Last but not least, the presumption of innocence would be nice, dude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_doping#Detection_of_gene_doping
"Gene doping is defined by the World Anti-Doping Agency as "the non-therapeutic use of cells, genes, genetic elements, or of the modulation of gene expression, having the capacity to improve athletic performance""
I'm not sure we are already capable of gene doping anyway. Sure we have used gene therapies with some degree of success, but I don't think we're that able yet.
"Gene doping is defined by the World Anti-Doping Agency as "the non-therapeutic use of cells, genes, genetic elements, or of the modulation of gene expression, having the capacity to improve athletic performance""
I'm not sure we are already capable of gene doping anyway. Sure we have used gene therapies with some degree of success, but I don't think we're that able yet.
We appear to be evolving towards a future where human bodies are 'updated' or 'improved'. Obviously one should support anti-aging therapies and all sorts of stuff aimed at making the human body more resilient. But let's say we actually reach a stage where we manage to improve people genetically. That would make for a level playing field. Unfortunately, despite the popularity of the phrase, a level playing field is not interesting in sports. Some people just are faster than others. Others might be stronger. It's the differences that make sport great to watch. If everyone is a superior athlete that might not be true anymore.
To be clear I'm not saying I'm against any of this. I applaud every effort to wipe out human suffering. But it would destroy professional sports imo.
To be clear I'm not saying I'm against any of this. I applaud every effort to wipe out human suffering. But it would destroy professional sports imo.