Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (62 Viewers)

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,917
The entire point is that if WADA has determined it's not a banned substance, and it's sold over-the-counter, it's perfectly fine to take it, and not considered a performance enhancer.

Off-label benefits that WADA is concerned with are diuretic, stimulant, masking, anabolic, etc... things that provide a tangible benefit. 20 years later, they haven't banned any of the 3 substances listed in that article because they have determined there is nothing wrong with them in terms of performance enhancement, just like any other nutritional supplement/drug they have not banned.

It's idiocy to be suggesting this case is at all similar to Sharapova's, in which case the drug has been banned now as a "performance enhancer"...

But Hist, and the moron writing the article don't seem to get that very important difference.
 

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Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,403
As soon as I read voltaren as one of the examples of performance enhancing drugs is when I decided to take that aricle 0% seriously. Most drugs you dont know nor use so you can assume they are worse and more benificial "cheating" even if legal, but the fact I know how common low level Voltaren is and use it myself, seeing it listed as big illicit advantage just made me lol.
I use it too. The article is claiming its used for a side effect not for its main effect.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,917
The writer of the article is a moron. Voltaren doesn't have some magical side-effect. Or WADA would have banned it by now. Absolute idiocy. It's a fucking goal.com article. None of those named drugs have magical performance enhancing side effects, or they'd have been banned in the last 20 years, especially considering the scandal that went on over their use in Italy.

Creatine, an NSAID, and a non-banned anti-depressant. Yeah. Terrible. So unethical.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,403
The entire point is that if WADA has determined it's not a banned substance, and it's sold over-the-counter, it's perfectly fine to take it, and not considered a performance enhancer.

Off-label benefits that WADA is concerned with are diuretic, stimulant, masking, anabolic, etc... things that provide a tangible benefit. 20 years later, they haven't banned any of the 3 substances listed in that article because they have determined there is nothing wrong with them in terms of performance enhancement, just like any other nutritional supplement/drug they have not banned.

It's idiocy to be suggesting this case is at all similar to Sharapova's, in which case the drug has been banned now as a "performance enhancer"...

But Hist, and the moron writing the article don't seem to get that very important difference.
again I said assuming the article is accurate about the facts it would be unethical practice. That is, if we were using legal drugs for their side effects then that would be unethical. The article claims that the drugs were found to be used for other side effects, the anti-depressants being the clearest case. If the article is factually incorrect and the drugs really don't have a performance enhancing side-effect then obviously the whole argument falls. I never claimed knowledge about what that side effect is or what these drugs actually do. IF they do have a side effect, and Juve/maria did abuse that then the argument has merit.


You have shifted gears. Your first reaction was that if it was legal then it is fair game because you held a general principle that anyone who doesnt use whatever legal means to gain an edge is stupid. You assumed all legal means are ethically equivalent.

The argument you are making now is different. You are now saying that our drugs do not have the alleged enhancing side-effect unlike Sharapova's drug. So Juve did not do what Sharapova did. This implies that you think what she did is unethical, WHICH HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,917
If you did any fucking research at all you wouldn't be trolling with this absolute bullshit. All 3 of those drugs after 20 years are still not banned substances. It's a stupid fucking argument. Only a moron would make it or assume that writer has any knowledge at all.

Not a banned substance = WADA says it is fair game to use as a supplement. And if WADA at one point had said it was alright to use the substance Sharapova took than it would be perfectly fine for her to take it even if they later changed their mind. The same deal with any substance that WADA has investigated and determined over.

But no, you decided to troll instead with absolutely no idea what you were talking about, in the very same manner the writer from that shit site did.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,403
If you did any $#@!ing research at all you wouldn't be trolling with this absolute bull$#@!. All 3 of those drugs after 20 years are still not banned substances. It's a stupid $#@!ing argument. Only a moron would make it or assume that writer has any knowledge at all.

Not a banned substance = WADA says it is fair game to use as a supplement. And if WADA at one point had said it was alright to use the substance Sharapova took than it would be perfectly fine for her to take it even if they later changed their mind. The same deal with any substance that WADA has investigated and determined over.

But no, you decided to troll instead with absolutely no idea what you were talking about, in the very same manner the writer from that $#@! site did.
:lol: I was clear what the assumption was from the start and I repeated it a thousand times. Don't come and act surprised now.

Also, tone it down with the personal insults.
 

Oggy

and the Cockroaches
Dec 27, 2005
7,411
This article reminds of the guys that are going to gym and won't take any supplements like whey protein or creatine because they are "natural" and the rest are cheating :lol:

Who in right mind wouldn't want something that can improve your performances and is safe for use, there is nothing unethical about it. Sharapova made a mistake for using after it was banned, but before that she had every right to use it, it's not her fault that Andy Murray think it's unfair, he could use it too if he wanted, fuck him.
 

Raz

Senior Member
Nov 20, 2005
12,218
again I said assuming the article is accurate about the facts it would be unethical practice. That is, if we were using legal drugs for their side effects then that would be unethical. The article claims that the drugs were found to be used for other side effects, the anti-depressants being the clearest case. If the article is factually incorrect and the drugs really don't have a performance enhancing side-effect then obviously the whole argument falls. I never claimed knowledge about what that side effect is or what these drugs actually do. IF they do have a side effect, and Juve/maria did abuse that then the argument has merit.


You have shifted gears. Your first reaction was that if it was legal then it is fair game because you held a general principle that anyone who doesnt use whatever legal means to gain an edge is stupid. You assumed all legal means are ethically equivalent.

The argument you are making now is different. You are now saying that our drugs do not have the alleged enhancing side-effect unlike Sharapova's drug. So Juve did not do what Sharapova did. This implies that you think what she did is unethical, WHICH HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.
tldr, but is it safe to say everything said was objective?
 

Juliano13

Senior Member
May 6, 2012
5,016
There is some sense that any single medicine will improve performance so you are correct in saying that they would improve performance. However its one thing to say that I am taking an anti-depressant because I am depressed and another to say that I am taking an anti-depressant even though I am not depressed. Its just that one the side effects of those pills is that I have higher adrenaline than normal people and that gives me an edge in a football match.

No one (not even the article here) is saying that Sharapova or Juve should not have used anti-inflammatory or anti depressents or any drugs at all. The whole problem is using a drug for a purpose different from what it is designed for to gain an advantage. Using an antiinlammatory drug to counter inflamation is the right use for it. Using it to boost adrenaline or improve stamina because of some other performance enhancing side effect is not.

I am not alone in having this intuition. The Doctor was banned and Giruado was found guilty of sporting fraud. This is when the agnelli family was well and strong its not another conspiracy.

Andy Murray said:
"Meldonium may not have been illegal until this year but its benefits nonetheless still gave athletes a sporting advantage, as another tennis star - outspoken doping critic Andy Murray - stated following Sharapova's televised mea culpa.

“I think taking a prescription drug that you don’t necessarily need, but just because it’s legal, that’s wrong, clearly,” the two-time Grand Slam winner said this week.

“If you’re taking a prescription drug and you’re not using it for what that drug was meant for, then you don’t need it, so you’re just using it for the performance-enhancing benefits that drug is giving you. And I don’t think that that’s right."

Its a very common moral intuition.
You could say the exact same thing about training or playing with a better racquet, or eating a banana and drinking water during the match. I didn't think it was possible to hate Murray even more, but now I do. And I hate his mother, who looks like a dried shrimp.
 

icemaη

Rab's Husband - The Regista
Moderator
Aug 27, 2008
34,956
This article reminds of the guys that are going to gym and won't take any supplements like whey protein or creatine because they are "natural" and the rest are cheating

Who in right mind wouldn't want something that can improve your performances and is safe for use, there is nothing unethical about it. Sharapova made a mistake for using after it was banned, but before that she had every right to use it, it's not her fault that Andy Murray think it's unfair, he could use it too if he wanted, fuck him.
:tup:
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,228
again I said assuming the article is accurate about the facts it would be unethical practice. That is, if we were using legal drugs for their side effects then that would be unethical. The article claims that the drugs were found to be used for other side effects, the anti-depressants being the clearest case. If the article is factually incorrect and the drugs really don't have a performance enhancing side-effect then obviously the whole argument falls. I never claimed knowledge about what that side effect is or what these drugs actually do. IF they do have a side effect, and Juve/maria did abuse that then the argument has merit.


You have shifted gears. Your first reaction was that if it was legal then it is fair game because you held a general principle that anyone who doesnt use whatever legal means to gain an edge is stupid. You assumed all legal means are ethically equivalent.

The argument you are making now is different. You are now saying that our drugs do not have the alleged enhancing side-effect unlike Sharapova's drug. So Juve did not do what Sharapova did. This implies that you think what she did is unethical, WHICH HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG.
If you did any fucking research at all you wouldn't be trolling with this absolute bullshit. All 3 of those drugs after 20 years are still not banned substances. It's a stupid fucking argument. Only a moron would make it or assume that writer has any knowledge at all.

Not a banned substance = WADA says it is fair game to use as a supplement. And if WADA at one point had said it was alright to use the substance Sharapova took than it would be perfectly fine for her to take it even if they later changed their mind. The same deal with any substance that WADA has investigated and determined over.

But no, you decided to troll instead with absolutely no idea what you were talking about, in the very same manner the writer from that shit site did.

I'm going to make this easier for the both of you.

What you're saying Hist is that it is unethical to use drugs not to combat an illness but for the side effects they may have if those side effects turn out to be positive for an athlete. I agree with this. And so does Post Ironic. However, there is a big difference between EPO for example and NSAIDS. As an athlete you use NSAIDS exactly for what they are meant to deal with: inflammation. You don't use them for a possible beneficial side effect at all. EPO on the other hand is normally used to deal with anemia. If you inject a person who does not have anemia with EPO, you are not using it for what it is meant for. You are using it to enhance your performance. That is why EPO is banned and NSAIDS are not.

The problem here Hist is that you have no notion of which drug does what and you're assuming we did something either illegal or immoral.
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
I'm going to make this easier for the both of you.

What you're saying Hist is that it is unethical to use drugs not to combat an illness but for the side effects they may have if those side effects turn out to be positive for an athlete. I agree with this. And so does Post Ironic. However, there is a big difference between EPO for example and NSAIDS. As an athlete you use NSAIDS exactly for what they are meant to deal with: inflammation. You don't use them for a possible beneficial side effect at all. EPO on the other hand is normally used to deal with anemia. If you inject a person who does not have anemia with EPO, you are not using it for what it is meant for. You are using it to enhance your performance. That is why EPO is banned and NSAIDS are not.

The problem here Hist is that you have no notion of which drug does what and you're assuming we did something either illegal or immoral.
Good post, but I dont agree with the overall opinion around here that it is okay to fill players with different kinds of medicine just because it is not on the dopinglist or that it is sold over the counter.
Correct me if I am wrong but anti inflammatory is given when people have infections and it should not be given to people every day or it could possible have implikations for your health? I guess that is what got the doctor convicted and what shut the program down in 1998.
It should be clear by now that the Triade explored every possible grey area

that could give us an advantage whether it was ussing drugs or put pressure on referees. Other teams did the same thing and you can always discuss what is allright and what is not, but I really dont hope that our current management is operating in the same manner.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,228
Good post, but I dont agree with the overall opinion around here that it is okay to fill players with different kinds of medicine just because it is not on the dopinglist or that it is sold over the counter.
Correct me if I am wrong but anti inflammatory is given when people have infections and it should not be given to people every day or it could possible have implikations for your health? I guess that is what got the doctor convicted and what shut the program down in 1998.
It should be clear by now that the Triade explored every possible grey area

that could give us an advantage whether it was ussing drugs or put pressure on referees. Other teams did the same thing and you can always discuss what is allright and what is not, but I really dont hope that our current management is operating in the same manner.
Neither do I. Some say that NSAID's may slow down the healing process and they have even been linked with ALS. Whether or not this all turns out to be true, I think it's always a bad idea to stuff your body with drugs, unless they resulted in a marked improvement of your health.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,403
I'm going to make this easier for the both of you.

What you're saying Hist is that it is unethical to use drugs not to combat an illness but for the side effects they may have if those side effects turn out to be positive for an athlete. I agree with this. And so does Post Ironic. However, there is a big difference between EPO for example and NSAIDS. As an athlete you use NSAIDS exactly for what they are meant to deal with: inflammation. You don't use them for a possible beneficial side effect at all. EPO on the other hand is normally used to deal with anemia. If you inject a person who does not have anemia with EPO, you are not using it for what it is meant for. You are using it to enhance your performance. That is why EPO is banned and NSAIDS are not.

The problem here Hist is that you have no notion of which drug does what and you're assuming we did something either illegal or immoral.
You almost got it right with only some details off.

I assumed (following the article and I made that assumption clear) that the drugs we used and the ones sharapova used had other side effects and were used for those side effects. I never claimed to know anything about the drugs, I said if the article's description of the facts is right then my conclusion based on that assumption was that the practice by both us and maria was unethical despite it being Legal. Thats the point I was making and its the same point murray made. You agree with that and you say PI also agrees with that.

However PI did not agree with that at the start. He clearly stated that as long as its legal, you'd be stupid if you do not exploit every means. I pushed back saying that whats ethical is not always identical with what is legal. I gave many examples of legal but unethical practices in politics, in business in sports and in every day life. He had no response to this.

PI then shifted gears and made another argument, which is that the drugs we used, unlike Sharapova's, do not actually have another side effect that we could have exploited for an advantage. What she did is thus different from what we did. She did an unethical act in exploiting the side effects of legal drugs but we never did. My response to this is that if the facts where as he says they are (that the drugs we used actually have no side effect) then he has a solid argument and I agree. At that point he was too emotional and engaged in rants and insults and couldn't even recognize that I agree with him on that point. The agreement is conditioned upon his description of the facts being right (our drugs had no other side effect that we were after).

You are the only one that could actually see the point being made and didn't get into rants.

- - - Updated - - -

Good post, but I dont agree with the overall opinion around here that it is okay to fill players with different kinds of medicine just because it is not on the dopinglist or that it is sold over the counter.
Correct me if I am wrong but anti inflammatory is given when people have infections and it should not be given to people every day or it could possible have implikations for your health? I guess that is what got the doctor convicted and what shut the program down in 1998.
It should be clear by now that the Triade explored every possible grey area

that could give us an advantage whether it was ussing drugs or put pressure on referees. Other teams did the same thing and you can always discuss what is allright and what is not, but I really dont hope that our current management is operating in the same manner.
:tup: Thats all I was arguing. If it turns out that our drugs never had that side-effect then nothing unethical happened.
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,917
Good post, but I dont agree with the overall opinion around here that it is okay to fill players with different kinds of medicine just because it is not on the dopinglist or that it is sold over the counter.
Correct me if I am wrong but anti inflammatory is given when people have infections and it should not be given to people every day or it could possible have implikations for your health? I guess that is what got the doctor convicted and what shut the program down in 1998.
It should be clear by now that the Triade explored every possible grey area

that could give us an advantage whether it was ussing drugs or put pressure on referees. Other teams did the same thing and you can always discuss what is allright and what is not, but I really dont hope that our current management is operating in the same manner.
It's incredibly naive to think that any high level sports performance program isn't using every single legal (and in some cases illegal) method available to increase performance. These athletic programs are fighting for results worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Olympic programs, professional sports teams, etc... Everything is explored, everything is used that can enhance performance, by every single team and athlete that can afford to do the research and use it. It will always be this way. If their are severe negative side-effects that very adversely effect athlete health, these drugs and supplements are banned. It's one of the conditions for adding something to the banned substance list.

And no anti-inflamms are not only for infections. They are also used and approved to be used for reducing inflammation due to muscular or ligament injury, and even to help reduce inflammation from muscular fatigue. Should they be used in high doses, every day? Probably not, as it both reduces their efficacy and the body's natural healing process and may have long term side effects that there currently isn't enough research done to know about with certainty. But who makes the decision to say anti-inflamms can only be used in this way or that? There is definitely a use for them in high-performance athletes, and

The point I was making is that it's entirely stupid to assume anything about that article was correct considering the writer doesn't have a clue as to what the drugs referenced actually are, and what possible benefits they provide. The writer is an idiot. Moving the goalposts, implying Juventus was the only doing it, while even making reference to another team using these drugs, etc. They also make the implication that such drugs are similar to Sharapova's drug, but this is obviously not the case, as they have not been banned by WADA, which means WADA does not see any of them as performance enhancing, nor do they see them as dangerous to athlete health.

Not to mention the fact, if Sharapova's drug was over-the-counter, considered legal, than there is absolutely nothing wrong her having used it prior to its ban. It doesn't matter whether she used it for its actual specific purpose or not. A large number of over-the-counter supplements not banned by WADA are not used in the way they were originally. Where do you draw the line of what supplement/drug is ethical to use, and how one can go about using it? Should WADA ban everything that is remotely performance enhancing? Most gym supplements would be banned, many vitamins would be banned... But these things can also improve health. Wintertime supplementation with Vitamin D is a huge performance enhancer for those who live in northern climates. Should it be banned? Creatine has some evidence supporting it as performance enhancing, at least during the training season... it can speed up post-workout recovery and allow you to work out more frequently and for longer periods of time. Should it be banned for this? The heart drug Neoton from the article was just an early version of creatine phosphate, an over-the-counter supplement used by a huge number of athletes and gym-goers round the world. Should we ban it and consider it unethical, because sport performance is not the only nor the original use?

Saying that you aren't using something for its intended purpose so you're being unethical is both naive and stupid. Many substances provide many benefits and have many purposes. If they are not banned, using them for any of their beneficial effects is perfectly fine in my book. Have all of them had enough studies done to determine long term consequence of their use... certainly not. But that's an entirely different argument, and what that takes on the whole supplement/pharma industry and whether testing is stringent enough before drugs get put into production or sold over the counter... Especially the supplement industry for which the FDA and other organizations are absurdly lax. But high performance sport is worth billions and these programs are filled experts in supplementation, nutrition, exercise physiology, and so on. Supplement regimes are created to maximize performance. And that is exactly what they do. At what cost, who knows? But suggesting any of this was exclusive to Juventus in the mid-90s, or isn't going on to this very day amongst all major sporting programs, is disingenuous and retarded.
 

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