well damn it mark, you need to be on this. what is the news coming out? im trying to translate shit and it isn't making sense.
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Calciopoli or Morattopoli.. inter fake orgasm (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter gsol
- Start date
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pre 2006, when we were the only dirty club 
http://www.calciogp.it/
One of only a few media outlets that will never let this die
http://www.calciogp.it/
One of only a few media outlets that will never let this die
pre 2006, when we were the only dirty club
http://www.calciogp.it/
One of only a few media outlets that will never let this die
http://www.calciogp.it/
One of only a few media outlets that will never let this die
Mark you’ve done well to keep the updates in the thread. Unfortunately they just don’t say much anymore which is why I stopped writing for a bit. I’ve been waiting for something definitive but all we keep reading is the same old. Since the trials recommenced in the fall we’ve heard a few more calls regarding Facchetti, referee Nucini shat the bed when he took the stand and admitted to private meetings with him (in banks), Auricchio all but handed the trial to the defense on a silver platter and Tronchetti confirmed Tavaroli’s testimony in another trial regarding spying for Moratti but we knew all these things already. Between last spring and this spring a few things were confirmed but nothing major has emerged, at least not for us. We were the few who knew this stuff already.
I actually read through the pages that have been added since the last time I posted here and I noticed a few things that I thought I’d address. For the record there is nothing new or groundbreaking here. It just hasn’t happened yet.
I actually read through the pages that have been added since the last time I posted here and I noticed a few things that I thought I’d address. For the record there is nothing new or groundbreaking here. It just hasn’t happened yet.
One common theme I kept reading in the thread was the all innocent vs. all guilty argument and which would be better. I’m not sure how relevant it is anymore. It was one of many Moggi quotes that simply took flight and now people think that the judges will have to either absolve those who were punished or punish those who never were and it is flawed for one simple reason; the calls and infractions are not all alike.
In terms of severity the Milano cousins, Viola and believe it or not Udinese vastly exceeded any calls that Lazio, Roma and yes even Juventus ever made. In an impartial trial based o the rules that governed the game in 2006 Udinese, Milan, Fiorentina and even Inter would have been relegated for direct article 6 violations like calling a referee and maintaining a rapport with him including private meetings while the referee was officiating your team’s matches and those of your direct adversaries (Nucini & Facchetti, Galliani & Collina).
Proposals of fixed matches (though no proof of an actual fix) emerged as well. We already knew about Della Valle proposing a draw to Lotito (who shot it down and called him crazy). We then discovered the Udinese – Milan connection on the last day of the season where Udinese were quoted asking for Milan to take it easy since the season was done for them. A draw then earned Udinese their berth into the CL. That doesn’t mean it was planed but they discussed the game beforehand and even their formations. The attempt on behalf of Udinese was recorded and ignored.
How then can all be innocent or all guilty? If Roma, Palermo, Juventus, Cagliari, and Modena didn’t do these things then they should not be placed in the same category as those that did simply because they called the referee designators (which was allowed and encouraged at the time).
Now the question is more who is guilty of what? Everyone is guilty of article 1 violations which are football’s equivalent to misdemeanors (i.e. calling a referee a stronzo or spitting on another player) but a select few were committing actual article 6 violations. After 5 years of deliberations the accusers managed score an own goal in demonstrating that Juventus hadn’t committed any while Inter and Milan among others were and walked away holding the smoking gun.
In terms of severity the Milano cousins, Viola and believe it or not Udinese vastly exceeded any calls that Lazio, Roma and yes even Juventus ever made. In an impartial trial based o the rules that governed the game in 2006 Udinese, Milan, Fiorentina and even Inter would have been relegated for direct article 6 violations like calling a referee and maintaining a rapport with him including private meetings while the referee was officiating your team’s matches and those of your direct adversaries (Nucini & Facchetti, Galliani & Collina).
Proposals of fixed matches (though no proof of an actual fix) emerged as well. We already knew about Della Valle proposing a draw to Lotito (who shot it down and called him crazy). We then discovered the Udinese – Milan connection on the last day of the season where Udinese were quoted asking for Milan to take it easy since the season was done for them. A draw then earned Udinese their berth into the CL. That doesn’t mean it was planed but they discussed the game beforehand and even their formations. The attempt on behalf of Udinese was recorded and ignored.
How then can all be innocent or all guilty? If Roma, Palermo, Juventus, Cagliari, and Modena didn’t do these things then they should not be placed in the same category as those that did simply because they called the referee designators (which was allowed and encouraged at the time).
Now the question is more who is guilty of what? Everyone is guilty of article 1 violations which are football’s equivalent to misdemeanors (i.e. calling a referee a stronzo or spitting on another player) but a select few were committing actual article 6 violations. After 5 years of deliberations the accusers managed score an own goal in demonstrating that Juventus hadn’t committed any while Inter and Milan among others were and walked away holding the smoking gun.
Another theme I read a few times was the “I don’t think we cheated, I don’t think we deserved to be relegated or stripped of titles…but Moggi was dirty”.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but opinions like these are cop outs because it sounds like a person who wants to make everyone happy. Without picking on anyone in particular I do want to point out one thing. No football director has been put through the ringer more than Moggi.
Even before the scandal this guy was accused of damn near every conceivable way a football director could cheat and came out clean. From accounting fraud, to illegal transfers, to doping, to bribery, to player agency control, to match fixing and so on the guy proved he was clean time and time again. He has no fake passports in his closet, he never registered illegally for leagues based on cooked financial records, and he never put drugs in coffee and made his players drink it. If he was dirty than how? I assume that those who feel he was dirty are alluding to misdeeds in his professional life so I am curious as to what is left for him to defend. He’s already proven in courts over and over again that it was BS media talk.
Want to know what he was guilty of by his own admission? He embraced the stigma. In his book he said that he never did anything to quash the theory that he was the all powerful transfer guru with ties to everything because it gave him bargaining power in a league where he had nothing. He was not a powerful politician (Milan), he was not an oil tycoon (Inter), he was not a media mogul (Milan), he was not the league sponsor (Inter) and he was not the league president (Milan), he financed by the Federation’s president’s bank (Lazio-Roma), nor was he the cardholder of all the TV rights (Milan).
The press depicted him as a dangerous man and though he knew he was f*ck all (being suspended without proof basically confirms just how powerless he was) he let them believe that he was dangerous because maybe that would get the team some respect in board rooms regarding things like TV rights and on the pitch as well. Ever notice how back then refs screwed us less and now they do it like it’s their job? Granted it happened back then too because mistakes are mistakes but the way it is today is crystal clear. No one fears us. They sure as hell don’t screw Inter or Milan like that.
Call it what you want but trying to prevent your team from being screwed isn’t cheating as he wasn’t trying to gain an unfair advantage. He just wanted the same respect for Juve that the other teams got. In any case you cannot fault him for that. The pro Rome and Milan based press wanted to paint that picture of him. He never asked for it and never used the stigma to influence match outcomes as evidenced by the ongoing and even concluded trials.
The other area where he was consistently dishonest was in the transfer market but that is a good thing unless you guys would have preferred a transfer guru who announced in advance what his summer objectives were. I liked hearing all summer that nothing was changing and then waking up to read that Viera had signed with us out of nowhere.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but opinions like these are cop outs because it sounds like a person who wants to make everyone happy. Without picking on anyone in particular I do want to point out one thing. No football director has been put through the ringer more than Moggi.
Even before the scandal this guy was accused of damn near every conceivable way a football director could cheat and came out clean. From accounting fraud, to illegal transfers, to doping, to bribery, to player agency control, to match fixing and so on the guy proved he was clean time and time again. He has no fake passports in his closet, he never registered illegally for leagues based on cooked financial records, and he never put drugs in coffee and made his players drink it. If he was dirty than how? I assume that those who feel he was dirty are alluding to misdeeds in his professional life so I am curious as to what is left for him to defend. He’s already proven in courts over and over again that it was BS media talk.
Want to know what he was guilty of by his own admission? He embraced the stigma. In his book he said that he never did anything to quash the theory that he was the all powerful transfer guru with ties to everything because it gave him bargaining power in a league where he had nothing. He was not a powerful politician (Milan), he was not an oil tycoon (Inter), he was not a media mogul (Milan), he was not the league sponsor (Inter) and he was not the league president (Milan), he financed by the Federation’s president’s bank (Lazio-Roma), nor was he the cardholder of all the TV rights (Milan).
The press depicted him as a dangerous man and though he knew he was f*ck all (being suspended without proof basically confirms just how powerless he was) he let them believe that he was dangerous because maybe that would get the team some respect in board rooms regarding things like TV rights and on the pitch as well. Ever notice how back then refs screwed us less and now they do it like it’s their job? Granted it happened back then too because mistakes are mistakes but the way it is today is crystal clear. No one fears us. They sure as hell don’t screw Inter or Milan like that.
Call it what you want but trying to prevent your team from being screwed isn’t cheating as he wasn’t trying to gain an unfair advantage. He just wanted the same respect for Juve that the other teams got. In any case you cannot fault him for that. The pro Rome and Milan based press wanted to paint that picture of him. He never asked for it and never used the stigma to influence match outcomes as evidenced by the ongoing and even concluded trials.
The other area where he was consistently dishonest was in the transfer market but that is a good thing unless you guys would have preferred a transfer guru who announced in advance what his summer objectives were. I liked hearing all summer that nothing was changing and then waking up to read that Viera had signed with us out of nowhere.
Why isn’t the press all over Calciopoli 2? The exact same people that controlled the major Italian papers and TV stations in 2006 maintain control today through RCS Media Group (Gazzetta, Corriere, etc.), Mediaset, and LA7. Considering who would stands to gain and who would stands to lose in light of the new revelations it should come as little surprise that this scandal is not receiving nearly the same level of media attention (or better yet frenzy) as the first scandal.
The question of “did Moggi resign and why?” came up a couple of times as well. Yes he resigned. As in most major decisions there was more than a single reason behind it.
The decision that was less important was that he felt that he was going to be removed at the next shareholder meeting anyway because he was no longer under the protection of Umberto Agnelli and his nephews on the other side of the family along with Montezemolo would have likely used the media frenzy and seized the opportunity to ask for a vote. Leaving on his own accord suited him better. It’s a choice but was by no means the major factor.
In the weeks that followed the first headlines Moggi made it clear that he intended on defending himself. Juventus made it clear that they intended on turning the page. In order for Moggi to defend himself, he had to distance himself from the club and its legal counsel. A counsel that felt that relegation with a point penalty and 2 stripped titles was acceptable without asking for any actual proof or putting up a fight. Many blamed Zaccone (Juve’s lawyer) but in truth he did prepare an appeal with the TAR courts and repealed it at the request of his clients…Juventus’ majority owners which we eventually discovered through Sports Minister Melandri was Motezemolo himself. Blatter also later thanked him publically for his ability to act as mediator during that summer. The lawyer is only going to do what his client asks of him. If Juventus were willing to accept relegation and Moggi was insisting on clearing his name than he had to part company.
The decision that was less important was that he felt that he was going to be removed at the next shareholder meeting anyway because he was no longer under the protection of Umberto Agnelli and his nephews on the other side of the family along with Montezemolo would have likely used the media frenzy and seized the opportunity to ask for a vote. Leaving on his own accord suited him better. It’s a choice but was by no means the major factor.
In the weeks that followed the first headlines Moggi made it clear that he intended on defending himself. Juventus made it clear that they intended on turning the page. In order for Moggi to defend himself, he had to distance himself from the club and its legal counsel. A counsel that felt that relegation with a point penalty and 2 stripped titles was acceptable without asking for any actual proof or putting up a fight. Many blamed Zaccone (Juve’s lawyer) but in truth he did prepare an appeal with the TAR courts and repealed it at the request of his clients…Juventus’ majority owners which we eventually discovered through Sports Minister Melandri was Motezemolo himself. Blatter also later thanked him publically for his ability to act as mediator during that summer. The lawyer is only going to do what his client asks of him. If Juventus were willing to accept relegation and Moggi was insisting on clearing his name than he had to part company.
Another common question is why didn’t Juventus defend itself and why doesn’t it defend itself now? These are actually two questions with different answers.
The first regarding 2006 is the part of the scandal that I hate the most. No element of the scandal has caused me more grief and more criticism (even in this thread) than the stuff I wrote about the “Inside Job”. People find it counterintuitive and farfetched and I can’t say I blame them but I do want to point out that since I wrote about this stuff on the web years ago plenty of other sources that I do not have contact with came forth describing what I described. Gigi Moncalvo published a book about it and programs aired on Italian TV describing the same cracks and motives in the Agnelli family that I did which tells me that their research surfaced similar results to mine and that at the very least I did not invent stuff off the top of my head.
For those who don’t feel like pouring over 500+ pages I’ll try to summarize some key points. Umberto Agnelli’s son Andrea was being groomed to take the reins at Juventus by the triade. This created a huge threat for the nephews of Giovanni Agnelli and their right arm Montezemolo. For years the triade had operated Juventus without a nickel from the FIAT empire (even before Umberto’s death) and were in charge financially and operationally of the team independent of FIAT/EXOR. Andrea Agnelli taking charge would have further distanced the other side of the family from the Juventus cash cow.
Getting rid of the triade and in particular Moggi and Giraudo became imperative to the Elkann side as noted from the wiretaps that discuss Montezemolo’s maneuvers to rid the team of both men (Galliani knew of it and so did Preziosi). A mere 2 months after Umberto’s death Blanc met with Elkann in Paris over the creation of a role at Juventus when the triade wanted nothing to do with him. He was nonetheless pushed in by John Elkann and began work for the team shortly thereafter. Why was a man who had nothing to do with football being pushed so adamantly by John Elkann? I don’t know but it worried Moggi.
Getting rid of Moggi and Giraudo proved difficult however. The shareholders supported them given the positive results in the books and on the pitch. Other teams had shown interest in acquiring their services (Moratti and Berlusconi) which put the Elkann clan in the precarious position of having two guys who knew all the ins and outs of their team as well as being major shareholders sitting at the helm of a direct rival (remember conflict of interest in Italy means almost nothing since Carraro had a stake in both Roman clubs). Removing them from Juve was not the solution. They needed to be removed from football entirely.
As a result many believe that the Elkanns and Montezemolo had a hand in the scandal which I feel is possible but debatable (granted all the business contacts are there between them and the Tronchetti/Moratti crew but there is no proof of their direct involvement). What is not debatable is that they seized the opportunity when the scandal erupted. They refused to defend the team which then saw both men suspended and the team fall into financial peril warranting a recapitalization from EXOR/FIAT granting full financial and operational control of the team to the Elkann side. Were they connivers or were they mere opportunists? I don’t know. What I feel is that what I just described is however the reason behind their reluctance to defend the team in 2006. Montezemolo went as far as removing the TAR appeal. That pretty much says it all.
Today, things are a bit different which changes the answer. They gave the tifosi the pacifier they were crying for and named Andrea President but the circumstances are completely different now. The team is not the financially independent team it once was and the recapitalization from EXOR makes Andrea more of a puppet than a president. He cannot run the shop as he sees fit. The team is more subservient now than ever before to the FIAT empire and him being there poses little threat compared to what it would have had he taken control when it was the financially independent beast it was in 2006.
This means that some things can be done but to outright defend the team in civil courts would rock the boat too much. It is one thing to ask for the titles back but to go after those who wronged us would be financial suicide because of how the team ran its operations in the last 5 years. Five years ago it was an option but with all the deals that took place since it is no longer.
First and foremost the team is likely awaiting the end of the Moggi Naples trial to do anything but even if the results there are positive, beyond reassigning our titles what more can they do? Andrea walked into a team that in the last five years made sponsorship deals with all of the entities that helped smear the team (Gazzetta, Telecom, etc.). Who are they going to take to civil court for reparations? If they sued Telecom, the result would be cash up front (if successful) and then a lost sponsor that over time could yield more money. Suing the Gazzetta would be the same. Suing the FIGC would be worse. Not only do I seriously doubt that the FIGC would say “you’re right, we wronged you, here’s hundreds of millions we don’t have” in a sporting tribunal but even if an outside authority forced them to do so what good would it do? Juve would have a ton of money up front and no league to play in. So the big question is who the hell would pay? Those of you who say “Inter, Moratti and Tronchetti” need to re-read the Telecom argument. Like it or not they sponsor us now and are stakeholders.
The first regarding 2006 is the part of the scandal that I hate the most. No element of the scandal has caused me more grief and more criticism (even in this thread) than the stuff I wrote about the “Inside Job”. People find it counterintuitive and farfetched and I can’t say I blame them but I do want to point out that since I wrote about this stuff on the web years ago plenty of other sources that I do not have contact with came forth describing what I described. Gigi Moncalvo published a book about it and programs aired on Italian TV describing the same cracks and motives in the Agnelli family that I did which tells me that their research surfaced similar results to mine and that at the very least I did not invent stuff off the top of my head.
For those who don’t feel like pouring over 500+ pages I’ll try to summarize some key points. Umberto Agnelli’s son Andrea was being groomed to take the reins at Juventus by the triade. This created a huge threat for the nephews of Giovanni Agnelli and their right arm Montezemolo. For years the triade had operated Juventus without a nickel from the FIAT empire (even before Umberto’s death) and were in charge financially and operationally of the team independent of FIAT/EXOR. Andrea Agnelli taking charge would have further distanced the other side of the family from the Juventus cash cow.
Getting rid of the triade and in particular Moggi and Giraudo became imperative to the Elkann side as noted from the wiretaps that discuss Montezemolo’s maneuvers to rid the team of both men (Galliani knew of it and so did Preziosi). A mere 2 months after Umberto’s death Blanc met with Elkann in Paris over the creation of a role at Juventus when the triade wanted nothing to do with him. He was nonetheless pushed in by John Elkann and began work for the team shortly thereafter. Why was a man who had nothing to do with football being pushed so adamantly by John Elkann? I don’t know but it worried Moggi.
Getting rid of Moggi and Giraudo proved difficult however. The shareholders supported them given the positive results in the books and on the pitch. Other teams had shown interest in acquiring their services (Moratti and Berlusconi) which put the Elkann clan in the precarious position of having two guys who knew all the ins and outs of their team as well as being major shareholders sitting at the helm of a direct rival (remember conflict of interest in Italy means almost nothing since Carraro had a stake in both Roman clubs). Removing them from Juve was not the solution. They needed to be removed from football entirely.
As a result many believe that the Elkanns and Montezemolo had a hand in the scandal which I feel is possible but debatable (granted all the business contacts are there between them and the Tronchetti/Moratti crew but there is no proof of their direct involvement). What is not debatable is that they seized the opportunity when the scandal erupted. They refused to defend the team which then saw both men suspended and the team fall into financial peril warranting a recapitalization from EXOR/FIAT granting full financial and operational control of the team to the Elkann side. Were they connivers or were they mere opportunists? I don’t know. What I feel is that what I just described is however the reason behind their reluctance to defend the team in 2006. Montezemolo went as far as removing the TAR appeal. That pretty much says it all.
Today, things are a bit different which changes the answer. They gave the tifosi the pacifier they were crying for and named Andrea President but the circumstances are completely different now. The team is not the financially independent team it once was and the recapitalization from EXOR makes Andrea more of a puppet than a president. He cannot run the shop as he sees fit. The team is more subservient now than ever before to the FIAT empire and him being there poses little threat compared to what it would have had he taken control when it was the financially independent beast it was in 2006.
This means that some things can be done but to outright defend the team in civil courts would rock the boat too much. It is one thing to ask for the titles back but to go after those who wronged us would be financial suicide because of how the team ran its operations in the last 5 years. Five years ago it was an option but with all the deals that took place since it is no longer.
First and foremost the team is likely awaiting the end of the Moggi Naples trial to do anything but even if the results there are positive, beyond reassigning our titles what more can they do? Andrea walked into a team that in the last five years made sponsorship deals with all of the entities that helped smear the team (Gazzetta, Telecom, etc.). Who are they going to take to civil court for reparations? If they sued Telecom, the result would be cash up front (if successful) and then a lost sponsor that over time could yield more money. Suing the Gazzetta would be the same. Suing the FIGC would be worse. Not only do I seriously doubt that the FIGC would say “you’re right, we wronged you, here’s hundreds of millions we don’t have” in a sporting tribunal but even if an outside authority forced them to do so what good would it do? Juve would have a ton of money up front and no league to play in. So the big question is who the hell would pay? Those of you who say “Inter, Moratti and Tronchetti” need to re-read the Telecom argument. Like it or not they sponsor us now and are stakeholders.
This takes me to the last point. What is the most likely outcome?
There are those here who say nothing will happen. There are those who say that the team will receive hundreds of millions in damages, 2 titles, Inter in B, and an apology. Both are extremes and I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
If Moggi is unsuccessful he will make an appeal to the next highest court and the process will repeat itself all over again leaving us to debate for another couple of years. If Moggi is successful he and Juventus will hold cards in their hands that will carry some weight and the FIGC are aware of that.
A few years ago financial restitution and Inter relegation were possibilities because Telecom’s sponsorship was expiring. The FIGC would have been held liable and would have made the claim that they were swindled by Telecom and Auricchio who obstructed justice passing liability to them putting the onus on them to pay. They have since renewed the sponsorship so that ship has sailed.
Inter will not be relegated in my opinion. No matter what they did the team’s directors are the same directors at Telecom that keep the league afloat so they are protected.
Suing the media may be a possibility for Moggi but would be counterproductive for Juve now considering the sponsorships that exist between them and the RCS Media Group.
In the end, this scandal will likely end the same way it started, behind closed doors with suits, wine, and cigars. If Moggi is successful a compromise will likely be reached allowing all parties to save face. Some lucrative sponsorship deals may come our way, maybe some titles will go back to where they belong, and an apology is not at all unrealistic. Hundreds of millions in damages won’t be in the cards though. No one will bankrupt themselves for us.
This is Italy we are talking about. I am proud of my heritage but I am not blind. Heroes founded the country, heroes liberated the country, but criminals run it now and that will not change for football.
There are those here who say nothing will happen. There are those who say that the team will receive hundreds of millions in damages, 2 titles, Inter in B, and an apology. Both are extremes and I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
If Moggi is unsuccessful he will make an appeal to the next highest court and the process will repeat itself all over again leaving us to debate for another couple of years. If Moggi is successful he and Juventus will hold cards in their hands that will carry some weight and the FIGC are aware of that.
A few years ago financial restitution and Inter relegation were possibilities because Telecom’s sponsorship was expiring. The FIGC would have been held liable and would have made the claim that they were swindled by Telecom and Auricchio who obstructed justice passing liability to them putting the onus on them to pay. They have since renewed the sponsorship so that ship has sailed.
Inter will not be relegated in my opinion. No matter what they did the team’s directors are the same directors at Telecom that keep the league afloat so they are protected.
Suing the media may be a possibility for Moggi but would be counterproductive for Juve now considering the sponsorships that exist between them and the RCS Media Group.
In the end, this scandal will likely end the same way it started, behind closed doors with suits, wine, and cigars. If Moggi is successful a compromise will likely be reached allowing all parties to save face. Some lucrative sponsorship deals may come our way, maybe some titles will go back to where they belong, and an apology is not at all unrealistic. Hundreds of millions in damages won’t be in the cards though. No one will bankrupt themselves for us.
This is Italy we are talking about. I am proud of my heritage but I am not blind. Heroes founded the country, heroes liberated the country, but criminals run it now and that will not change for football.
If we got back the titles, it would be more than I've always expected. Compensation, inter relegation, suing whoever, forget about it. I wish something could be done, and I hope there are those who are trying. But for me, I'd rather move on than keep false hope. And what gsol said, reinforces my feeling that Moggi has no future here, therefore, we should all move on.
