Benelux Thread (If you speak Dutch, if you speak French get out. Sorry, Luxemburg.) (4 Viewers)

[Buck Fuddy]

How is it not true.

* 3 versions of the r? I'm not sure what they mean by that, because I only know the one version/usage.
* calamitous g vs h situation? Makes no sense, I can only assume they're talking about the possible difficulties between the g & ch sounds. Which I believe can be found in multiple languages.
* Dutch pronunciation is ridiculously irregular and idiosyncratic? Don't know about that but it could be true. Difficult for me to judge obviously.
* The written language is a piss poor description of the spoken language? Don't know how I should interpret that, but I don't see any difference between for example written/spoken English compared to written/spoken Dutch.
* The word order is the work of a sick mind? Again wrong. Different languages may have different word orders but, in general, the word order in Dutch is very much the same as in English.
Case in point: "The word order is the work of a sick mind" translates to "de woord volgorde is het werk van een zieke geest". Not a single word changed in the order.

 

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[Martin]

* 3 versions of the r? I'm not sure what they mean by that, because I only know the one version/usage.

What are you talking about? There are clearly three of them (there may be more I haven't even heard yet for all I know):
1. The English r (as in the way most people around here would say eRst).
2. The Italian r as in Recreatie. Using the English r here would sound ridiculous.
3. The guttural r that some people use instead of the other two (or alongside, whatever they want).

* calamitous g vs h situation? Makes no sense, I can only assume they're talking about the possible difficulties between the g & ch sounds. Which I believe can be found in multiple languages.

As in you can't tell which is which. When unstressed (as in not a recording on a language tape where they specifically try to distinguish them) there's no difference between Heel Goud. Granted I have an untrained ear, but I'm not deaf either.

* The written language is a piss poor description of the spoken language? Don't know how I should interpret that, but I don't see any difference between for example written/spoken English compared to written/spoken Dutch.

But it is if you compare it to say Italian which has a very close correspondence between the two. You know how French orthography is such a complicated mess? That's because they're trying to tell you how to pronounce it.

* The word order is the work of a sick mind? Again wrong. Different languages may have different word orders but, in general, the word order in Dutch is very much the same as in English.
Case in point: "The word order is the work of a sick mind" translates to "de woord volgorde is het werk van een zieke geest". Not a single word changed in the order.

You asked.
- I do not want to have it now.
- Ik wil het nu niet hebben.

 

[Firestarter]

Zie die bitches blijven kijken want ze willen m'n toeter... Ja die bitches blijven kijken want ze willen m'n toeter!

 

[Martin]

points subtracted for repeating the same thing

 

[Buck Fuddy]

What are you talking about? There are clearly three of them (there may be more I haven't even heard yet for all I know):
1. The English r (as in the way most people around here would say eRst).
2. The Italian r as in Recreatie. Using the English r here would sound ridiculous.
3. The guttural r that some people use instead of the other two (or alongside, whatever they want).

You completely lost me here Martin. Erst is not a word, I assume you meant eerst, right?
Now, tell me, what exactly is different about the R in recreatie as opposed to the R in eerst? No matter how hard I try, I really can't see / hear any difference.

As in you can't tell which is which. When unstressed (as in not a recording on a language tape where they specifically try to distinguish them) there's no difference between Heel Goud. Granted I have an untrained ear, but I'm not deaf either.

Sorry, that is simply not true. The difference between an H or G is absolutely massive. Even when unstressed. Simple example: Hij vs Gij or Hans vs Gans, would be quite a mess if the difference between both was undistinguishable.

Mind you, I'm talking about normal, regular Dutch here. However, there are quite a few dialects where there might indeed be troubles, due to different types of speech. That's the case in Belgium at least, I assume it's the same in the Netherlands.

But it is if you compare it to say Italian which has a very close correspondence between the two. You know how French orthography is such a complicated mess? That's because they're trying to tell you how to pronounce it.

That I agree with. I was comparing to English, since that's the most logical foreign language for me. Even if it possibly isn't the most logical one for others.

You asked.
- I do not want to have it now.
- Ik wil het nu niet hebben.

True, but like I said, word order is different in pretty much every language. Whether it's translating from French to English, English to Italian, ...

Zie die bitches blijven kijken want ze willen m'n toeter... Ja die bitches blijven kijken want ze willen m'n toeter!

Damn, I've got to start using toeter much more.

 

[Martin]

You completely lost me here Martin. Erst is not a word, I assume you meant eerst, right?

Yes, I was. I don't know how to spell it, I just know how it sounds.

Now, tell me, what exactly is different about the R in recreatie as opposed to the R in eerst? No matter how hard I try, I really can't see / hear any difference.

Frankly I'm not in the mood for this today. (Not because of you.) I just got back from work famished and exhausted. I'll just address one point you made.

Sorry, that is simply not true. The difference between an H or G is absolutely massive.

Right, massive. This is a recording from a language course, ie. they are supposed to speak with maximum clarity. The two words are geeft and heeft. Tell me which is which. Then let's do a poll to see how many people who don't speak Dutch think "the difference is absolutely massive".

http://www.zshare.net/audio/732719659a507c99/

Even when unstressed. Simple example: Hij vs Gij or Hans vs Gans, would be quite a mess if the difference between both was undistinguishable.

Believe me, the thought had occurred to me.

Damn, I've got to start using toeter much more.

Yeah, that's true. It's not like another language has some kind of commitment to be predictable to someone else.

 

[Ken]

Zie die bitches blijven kijken want ze willen m'n toeter... Ja die bitches blijven kijken want ze willen m'n toeter!

 

[Buck Fuddy]

Yes, I was. I don't know how to spell it, I just know how it sounds.

Frankly I'm not in the mood for this today. (Not because of you.) I just got back from work famished and exhausted. I'll just address one point you made.

That's what they always say

Right, massive. This is a recording from a language course, ie. they are supposed to speak with maximum clarity. The two words are geeft and heeft. Tell me which is which. Then let's do a poll to see how many people who don't speak Dutch think "the difference is absolutely massive".

http://www.zshare.net/audio/732719659a507c99/

Had a quick listen and I must say that there's indeed only a small difference in that case. However, his pronunciation of "geeft" leaves a lot to be desired if you ask me, no matter how much he tries to stress it.



How long have you been studying Dutch? And how is it going?

 

[Martin]

That's what they always say

Had a quick listen and I must say that there's indeed only a small difference in that case. However, his pronunciation of "geeft" leaves a lot to be desired if you ask me, no matter how much he tries to stress it.

Maybe, but it's often like this. When a recording like this fails to distinguish it, that rather suggests this is common in the population too.

How long have you been studying Dutch? And how is it going?

Not long, like 2 weeks. But I was willing to spend 6 months on Italian, so I really should have plenty of patience for this.

Dutch is frustrating, because it seems so close to English and Norwegian that you think it's gonna be easy. But no language is easy in the sense that you can learn it in 5 minutes. Shouldn't underestimate.

 

[Enron]

How did your Italian turn out Martin?

 

[Byrone]

I speak afrikaans does it count? Am i allowed entrance?

 

[Martin]

How did your Italian turn out Martin?

Depends on who you ask. I'm thrilled, went far beyond expectation. I've watched tons of Italian dubbed tv and I'm reading my 5th book in Italian. I took an online language test, scored Listening C1, Writing C1, Reading B2, Grammar C1 and Vocabulary A2.

Aside from speech, which is slow and very weak, I'm intermediate. And that's after only 6 months, I took 3 years of French in high school and I can't formulate a single correct sentence.

I'm still at it though, reading on the train everyday, trying to solidify my grammar and improve my vocabulary, want to get fluent. Going to Italy in the summer, gonna be awesome.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

Not long, like 2 weeks. But I was willing to spend 6 months on Italian, so I really should have plenty of patience for this.

Dutch is frustrating, because it seems so close to English and Norwegian that you think it's gonna be easy. But no language is easy in the sense that you can learn it in 5 minutes. Shouldn't underestimate.

Respect, man. I can imagine Dutch being frustrating. I assume you picked it up because you live in the Netherlands? Because there's not much use for it on a global level.

Depends on who you ask. I'm thrilled, went far beyond expectation. I've watched tons of Italian dubbed tv and I'm reading my 5th book in Italian. I took an online language test, scored Listening C1, Writing C1, Reading B2, Grammar C1 and Vocabulary A2.

Aside from speech, which is slow and very weak, I'm intermediate. And that's after only 6 months, I took 3 years of French in high school and I can't formulate a single correct sentence.

I'm still at it though, reading on the train everyday, trying to solidify my grammar and improve my vocabulary, want to get fluent. Going to Italy in the summer, gonna be awesome.

6 months
That seems really fast to me. And by going to Italy you'll learn even faster. It might even improve your French, since both languages are rather similar.

 

[chester]

BF, we should talk Dutch to help Martin, especially in this thread.

Rode Duivels gezien gisteren?
Vond het maar een povere vertoning, van beide teams.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

Goed idee, maar ik heb de wedstrijd niet gezien, dus ik vrees dat we al uitgepraat zijn


Geen positieve dingen gezien dan? Of waren er toch enkele lichtpunten? Ben eigenlijk zelf vooral geïnteresseerd hoe Lukaku (en de rest van de aanval) het gedaan heeft, aangezien de aanval toch al lang het zwakste punt is van de ploeg.

 

[chester]

Lukaku was degelijk, niet echt opvallend maar hij heeft dan ok vrij weinig van de bal gezien.
Hazard was goed, de beste man op het veld in de eerste helft naar mijn mening.
Dembele was zwak, bracht te weinig.
Martens was ook niet echt overtuigend.
In de tweede helft was de invalbeurt van Carcela als vervanger van Dembele ook wel veelbelovend.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

Ok, thx.

Dembele verbaast me eigenlijk niets. Heb ik altijd al een overroepen speler gevonden. Ik krijg de indruk dat die 3 à 4 zwakke wedstrijden speelt voor elke echt goeie. Maar ik moet zeggen dat ik ook van Carcela niet echt fan ben.

Was het eigenlijk een terechte uitslag?

 

[chester]

Nee, 0-0 of 1-1 was eerlijker geweest.

Eigenlijk 0-0, beide ploegen verdiende geen doelpunt, de Kroatische goal is trouwens wel op Bailly zijn kap te schrijven

 

[Martin]

Respect, man. I can imagine Dutch being frustrating. I assume you picked it up because you live in the Netherlands? Because there's not much use for it on a global level.

Indeed that's why.

6 months
That seems really fast to me. And by going to Italy you'll learn even faster. It might even improve your French, since both languages are rather similar.

Well my French is still all to do, but we'll get to that later. Maybe. For now I have my hands full.

You know there is a certain theory about language acquisition that says the more input you get (the more you read, watch movies etc), even without actively using the language, the higher your "potential" is when you finally have the chance to do it, and the more competent you will be. I'm gonna see if this is true.

 

[Buck Fuddy]

You know there is a certain theory about language acquisition that says the more input you get (the more you read, watch movies etc), even without actively using the language, the higher your "potential" is when you finally have the chance to do it, and the more competent you will be. I'm gonna see if this is true.

I'd say that is very true. Although actually using the language (especially speaking it, not so much writing) is obviously very different from merely understanding it. For instance, I understand German pretty well, but don't ask me to say something myself. I really can't.

But enough of this, Martin. I will, from now on, reply to you in Dutch in this thread. Just to make sure you'll learn it very fast