Arthur (114 Viewers)

[Robee]

no, mate, i stand by my post. at this point you're simply ignoring the facts.

you wrote the other day that you didn't care about the books. well, that's wrong and you should. the books will tell you the exact cost of arthur. and don't start with your usual explanation, we read it way too many times, and it was wrong on each occasion. swap deals have their transparent cost too. for the last time: forget the cash flow, don't ignore the books, don't ignore amortization. that's the core of football finances, and it simply can't be ignored. period.

The Arthur transfer can not be seen as an independent transfer. It was and always will be connected to the transfer of Pjanic. There's no way in hell we (or anyone else) would've paid 80 mil for Arthur in a crisis situation, without Pjanic going the other way that is.

 

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[s4tch]

The Arthur transfer can not be seen as an independent transfer. It was and always will be connected to the transfer of Pjanic. There's no way in hell we (or anyone else) would've paid 80 mil for Arthur in a crisis situation, without Pjanic going the other way that is.

nobody said that.

but that doesn't mean that you can simply change arthur's valuation to "pjanic +22m" or whatever. the fact is that we sold pjanic for 60 and bought arthur for 72+bonus. that makes arthur an expensive player, whether you like it or not. you can't pretend that his amortization doesn't exist.

 

[GarfielD]

nobody said that.

but that doesn't mean that you can simply change arthur's valuation to "pjanic +22m" or whatever. the fact is that we sold pjanic for 60 and bought arthur for 72+bonus. that makes arthur an expensive player, whether you like it or not. you can't pretend that his amortization doesn't exist.

The bottom line is Arthur is worth Pjanic +15m. Dont know whats the fuss about Arthur.

 

[kappa96]

nobody said that.

but that doesn't mean that you can simply change arthur's valuation to "pjanic +22m" or whatever. the fact is that we sold pjanic for 60 and bought arthur for 72+bonus. that makes arthur an expensive player, whether you like it or not. you can't pretend that his amortization doesn't exist.

Yeah, but saying that, and BTW I agree with you on this, without mentioning Pjanic, is taking Arthur's valuation out of context and projecting an unfair image on our management.

If you have people that don't follow Juve closely and know the full spectrum of the deal, they would say "boy that Juve's management sure are a bunch of stupid people".
They did make a bunch of stupid decisions, but in this case it remains to be seen how it all pans out.

That's why I say that saying that Arthur is 82 million (which is a true statement, of course, per our books), without mentioning the Pjanic sale paints an unfair picture on the whole deal.

It's like reporting on an accident and saying that the first respondents failed to save 15 from drowning (implying bad management of the situation), neglecting to mention those 30 persons they did save.

That's where we don't come eye to eye.
Your quote of 82 million Arthur's buying price, paints a bad picture, without mentioning the sale of Pjanic, on management, which is a false/skewed one, strictly in this case.

For what we know we can sale Arthur for 70 million in 3 years time which will make this a great deal. Also he can flop and we take the L on this.

So I am not going to stop quoting you on that sum whenever you make it, in a friendly manner, that is
Nothing personal, bro.

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[il brutto]

He's shown some improvements lately but it's hard to imagine him ever showing enough to justify his 82 million price tag.

 

[Strickland]

During Pjanic’ days we only had Pjanic who could make those passes, and unfortunately he kinda stopped doing that as time progressed.

Arthur has some specific qualities, two very different players. We should just use him in his best role and we have enough other players who could give that final pass nowadays.

I always felt that Pjanic became a less player as the seasons went by.

Besides that, Pjanic became what Dybala almost was, and Cancelo was the year before that. I still think we won swapping Danilo/Cancelo and Pjanic/Arthur. I’m wondering who’s next, hopefully someone between Rabiot/Ramsey/Berna

We really dont. Arthurs midfield buddies McKennie and Benta can't, Rabiot neither, Ramsey can, but he's rarely fit enough to play. Upfront Ronaldo, Chiesa and Morata have a good eye for a through ball, but they're the ones who should receive them. from deeper players that are starters only old man Cuads is a creative force

 

[singus]

Arthur will become even more useful when more of our starting 11 consists of players who are calm with the ball and has a football IQ, as well as players who actually move around making themselves available for passes. Getting De Ligt back will help massively and getting another mature and technical decent CB would be important too. I dont think its a problem for Arthur to find direct passes, we just need more movement and a plan. Thats more a guess on my side though.

Laughable arguments made calling Arthur a +80M player and comparing his output to that cost. That must be trolling. We got rid of a clearly declining and uninterested player, in almost direct exchange with a much younger and probably already better player. Thats the comparison to make. Huge win financially.

 

[Robee]

nobody said that.

but that doesn't mean that you can simply change arthur's valuation to "pjanic +22m" or whatever. the fact is that we sold pjanic for 60 and bought arthur for 72+bonus. that makes arthur an expensive player, whether you like it or not. you can't pretend that his amortization doesn't exist.

His amortisation is like that. His payment, in reality, never was.

 

[Adrian]

We need more from him but can't expect it overnight. He needs time to settle and gel with in a team that overall hasn't gelled yet.

Pirlo has a hard job trying to find the right combos in that midfield.

 

[s4tch]

His amortisation is like that. His payment, in reality, never was.

explain payment terms please.

 

[kappa96]

explain payment terms please.

They give us 60 million for Pjanic in N installments.

We give them 75 million + 7 in bonuses in N installments.

After you can calculate the impact on our books.
But that up there still remains the core of the transaction between us and barfa.

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[Robee]

explain payment terms please.

There's no more explaining to do. All has been said. Without Pjanic there wouldn't have been 80 mil involved. And now it's 80 mil on the books. Both views are needed to explain the deal.

 

[Xperd]

Whether he's a 'huge win financially' largely depends on his performances with us. Its too early to say something like that when he's barely shown that he can be half as serviceable as Pjanić.

Regardless of how you look at it, his value on the books will be 70M+ and in any event that he flops, he'll be extremely hard to sell because of his overexcessive book value.

In that scenario, there would be no point discussing financials when said player flops and thereby becomes difficult to sell. Milan traded a much older Bonucci for a younger Caldara and they ended up on the losing side of the deal for example.

Having said that, Arthur deserves more time but there are some worrying signs about him. Nothing wrong in acknowledging that. Piss poor stamina, lacks creativity and heavily reliant on his midfield partners to do the dirty work. He's got to drastically improve before we can make statements like 'better than Pjanić' or 'huge win financially'. Let's just calm down shall we.

 

[Robee]

Whether he's a 'huge win financially' largely depends on his performances with us. Its too early to say something like that when he's barely shown that he can be half as serviceable as Pjanić.

Regardless of how you look at it, his value on the books will be 70M+ and in any event that he flops, he'll be extremely hard to sell because of his overexcessive book value.

In that scenario, there would be no point discussing financials when said player flops and thereby becomes difficult to sell. Milan traded a much older Bonucci for a younger Caldara and they ended up on the losing side of the deal for example.

Having said that, Arthur deserves more time but there are some worrying signs about him. Nothing wrong in acknowledging that. Piss poor stamina, lacks creativity and heavily reliant on his midfield partners to do the dirty work. He's got to drastically improve before we can make statements like 'better than Pjanić' or 'huge win financially'. Let's just calm down shall we.

Some good points but... let's not compare him to prime Pjanic. That's not who we got rid off.

And even in case we'd have a hard time selling him... He also helped balance the books when coming in. That is exactly the duality of the deal some refuse to see/tend to forget too easily.

 

[Gian]

Truthfully speaking, from a sporting aspect, none of the parties involved in this deal benefitted from it.

Pjanic barely plays at Barca, Arthur hasn't impressed here either. Juventus needed someone to add creativity/DLP in midfield which we didn't found. Barca needed a B2B to play next to Busquets/FdJ.

 

[maxi]

Pjanic 0 goals, 0 assists and 40% of minutes played with Barca this season, lol. I think we got the better end of this deal.

 

[s4tch]

Pjanic 0 goals, 0 assists and 40% of minutes played with Barca this season, lol. I think we got the better end of this deal.

arthur didn't play much more than that, and didn't score or assist too much either. (i remember like 2-3 goals in 2 years.)

they have a fatter plusvalenza, we have the younger player with the higher market value. but as xperd said (and i pointed out multiple times), arthur's book value can't be ignored: it weights on the books every single year, and because of the high book value, he'd be very hard to sell.

After you can calculate the impact on our books.

no mate, far from it. the impact on the books has very little to do with the cash flow. also, the impact of the two players is completely independent of each other. pjanic's impact was already accounted for in the latest financial year, and only some eventual bonuses might influence the current (and future) financial periods. that was the point of the whole operation for both teams, and that's why juve took the burden of a 70-80m player who would never be worth anything remotely close to that.

 

[Boksic]

Pjanic 0 goals, 0 assists and 40% of minutes played with Barca this season, lol. I think we got the better end of this deal.

What are Arthur's stats?

Let's be honest both sides have been a mess all season and neither are going to have good numbers. I think people get far too hung up on stats anyway.

It has been a swap that so far hasn't really worked out for any party other than short term plusvalenza and Arthur getting a big pay rise.

Hopefully Arthur can build on his good performance against Napoli and be a decent player for us, time will tell.

 

[kappa96]

arthur didn't play much more than that, and didn't score or assist too much either. (i remember like 2-3 goals in 2 years.)

they have a fatter plusvalenza, we have the younger player with the higher market value. but as xperd said (and i pointed out multiple times), arthur's book value can't be ignored: it weights on the books every single year, and because of the high book value, he'd be very hard to sell.


no mate, far from it. the impact on the books has very little to do with the cash flow. also, the impact of the two players is completely independent of each other. pjanic's impact was already accounted for in the latest financial year, and only some eventual bonuses might influence the current (and future) financial periods. that was the point of the whole operation for both teams, and that's why juve took the burden of a 70-80m player who would never be worth anything remotely close to that.

Yeah I know that the revenue is calculated towards the previous fiscal year and the deal was made to lessen the financial burden of both clubs.
I was referring, though, that the clubs have to first agree to those terms, and only after you can calculate the financial aspect on the books.

If they don't agree to our terms and us to their terms, there's no financial impact to calculate.

I already told you that I know how Ffp works since Spinazzola and Pellegrini swap.(I mean not swap, different deals, whatever)

 

[s4tch]

Yeah I know that the revenue is calculated towards the previous fiscal year...

that's exactly right, and proves my point that i tried to get you understand all along. that's one of the reasons why you have to treat the two transfers separately: they have completely independent financial and legal consequences. even the full cash flows have to be paid, it wasn't your typical schoolyard barter at all. that makes pjanic a 60m player for barcelona, and arthur a 70-80m player for us until their contracts expire. it's not pjanic + 10-20m for us, and it's not arthur - 10-20m for them either.

they were agreed at the same table, but bottom line is that these are separate deals. separate finances. separate contracts. easy. the same way, you can't treat romero as a "ruru + 10m" player, because when you sell romero, only his actual book value counts. the same goes for spina and pellegrini: we got him for 22m, not "spina - 7m". if we would have sold pellegrini for 8m the same day we bought him, it would have been a 14m loss, not a 1m profit by your logic.

plusvalenza is calculated based on the individual assets' values, not per business partners, or "transactions happening at the same time". that's what you need to understand first. the rest is easy.