Arthur (24 Viewers)

kappa96

kappa96

Senior Member
#961
Jun 20, 2018
6,890
#961
s4tch said:
that's exactly right, and proves my point that i tried to get you understand all along. that's one of the reasons why you have to treat the two transfers separately: they have completely independent financial and legal consequences. even the full cash flows have to be paid, it wasn't your typical schoolyard barter at all. that makes pjanic a 60m player for barcelona, and arthur a 70-80m player for us until their contracts expire. it's not pjanic + 10-20m for us, and it's not arthur - 10-20m for them either.

they were agreed at the same table, but bottom line is that these are separate deals. separate finances. separate contracts. easy. the same way, you can't treat romero as a "ruru + 10m" player, because when you sell romero, only his actual book value counts. the same goes for spina and pellegrini: we got him for 22m, not "spina - 7m". if we would have sold pellegrini for 8m the same day we bought him, it would have been a 14m loss, not a 1m profit by your logic.

plusvalenza is calculated based on the individual assets' values, not per business partners, or "transactions happening at the same time". that's what you need to understand first. the rest is easy.
Click to expand...
And I understand this.
For us to turn a profit it would mean that we need to sell Arthur for 22 million + at least whatever value Pjanic still had on our books. Am I doing it wrong?
Also without Pjanic sale the loss would be - 137 million instead of - 77 million, for the previous fiscal year.
 

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s4tch

s4tch

Senior Member
#962
Mar 23, 2015
28,264
#962
kappa96 said:
And I understand this.
For us to turn a profit it would mean that we need to sell Arthur for 22 million + at least whatever value Pjanic still had on our books. Am I doing it wrong?
Also without Pjanic sale the loss would be - 137 million instead of - 77 million, for the previous fiscal year.
Click to expand...
no buddy, sorry, that's inaccurate unfortunately.

just simply forget pjanic when it comes to arthur. the two contracts have NOTHING to do with each other financially and legally. nothing. they happened at the same time and they wouldn't have happened without each other, that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be echoed, still, they are SEPARATE contracts both legally and financially. so the calculations need to be made separately too.

that's what i'm trying to get you understand: the assets (=players) are valued individually.

arthur was bought for 72m. period. his historical book value is ~72m, minus yearly amortization, plus eventual bonuses. let's suppose no bonus will be paid. in that case, his book value for the next 4 (30th of june) summer will look like this:
1611665949470.png

if you sell him in the summer of 2021, let's say the first day of the next financial year (01.07.2021) for 30m, the calculation is the following: 30m-57,6m, which is a 27,6m loss (or minusvalenza), and has NOTHING to do with pjanic.
if you sell him for 30m in july of 2023, that's a plusvalenza of 1,2m.
if you sell him for 30m in 4 years without extending his contract: plusvalenza of 15,6m.

easy: capital gain (or loss) = sale price - book value. no other way to calculate. that's the only method: treat the players SEPARATELY, and base the capital gain (or loss) on their actual book value. agent fees, bonuses and money owed to previous clubs can and will change the exact numbers, but the main idea is simple. just check the previous financial reports for practical examples.

the same way, pjanic deal look like this: sold for ~60m, book value plus agent expenses was around ~20m, so the plusvalenza was ~40m. see financial report for exact numbers, it's somewhere between 41m and 42m. and it's already forgotten, done, accounted for. the loss was almost ~90m after we let higuain and matuidi go for free, so without the pjanic sale, last season's loss would have been around ~130m.

higuain's book value was ~18m. we let him go for free, so 0 revenue minus 18m book value means -18m of loss. and it doesn't matter anymore that we bought him from the pogba money. the same way, we could afford arthur's inflated fee from pjanic's inflated sale. the difference between the pogba-higuain stuff and the arthur-pjanic stuff is that in the latter case, the business partner is the same for both players, so the values could be inflated. still, the two valuations must be treated separately.

fucking wall of text... this was the last time i tried to explain it.
 
kappa96

kappa96

Senior Member
#963
Jun 20, 2018
6,890
#963
s4tch said:
no buddy, sorry, that's inaccurate unfortunately.

just simply forget pjanic when it comes to arthur. the two contracts have NOTHING to do with each other financially and legally. nothing. they happened at the same time and they wouldn't have happened without each other, that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be echoed, still, they are SEPARATE contracts both legally and financially. so the calculations need to be made separately too.

that's what i'm trying to get you understand: the assets (=players) are valued individually.

arthur was bought for 72m. period. his historical book value is ~72m, minus yearly amortization, plus eventual bonuses. let's suppose no bonus will be paid. in that case, his book value for the next 4 (30th of june) summer will look like this:
1611665949470.png

if you sell him in the summer of 2021, let's say the first day of the next financial year (01.07.2021) for 30m, the calculation is the following: 30m-57,6m, which is a 27,6m loss (or minusvalenza), and has NOTHING to do with pjanic.
if you sell him for 30m in july of 2023, that's a plusvalenza of 1,2m.
if you sell him for 30m in 4 years without extending his contract: plusvalenza of 15,6m.

easy: capital gain (or loss) = sale price - book value. no other way to calculate. that's the only method: treat the players SEPARATELY, and base the capital gain (or loss) on their actual book value. agent fees, bonuses and money owed to previous clubs can and will change the exact numbers, but the main idea is simple. just check the previous financial reports for practical examples.

the same way, pjanic deal look like this: sold for ~60m, book value plus agent expenses was around ~20m, so the plusvalenza was ~40m. see financial report for exact numbers, it's somewhere between 41m and 42m. and it's already forgotten, done, accounted for. the loss was almost ~90m after we let higuain and matuidi go for free, so without the pjanic sale, last season's loss would have been around ~130m.

higuain's book value was ~18m. we let him go for free, so 0 revenue minus 18m book value means -18m of loss. and it doesn't matter anymore that we bought him from the pogba money. the same way, we could afford arthur's inflated fee from pjanic's inflated sale. the difference between the pogba-higuain stuff and the arthur-pjanic stuff is that in the latter case, the business partner is the same for both players, so the values could be inflated. still, the two valuations must be treated separately.

fucking wall of text... this was the last time i tried to explain it.
Click to expand...
Nice explanation bro. Thanks for taking the time.
It seems I am a little hot headed sometimes.
I praise you, for your patience.
Sorry for bugging you so much.
Got to do a little more research sometimes. :ok:
 
singus

singus

Senior Member
#965
Sep 22, 2020
2,073
#965
Seems to me some are making it more complicated than it really is.

At the end of this season Pjanic will be worth 20-40M on the market and Arthur will be worth 40-60M.
End of next season it will probably look like this: Pjanic 20M, Arthur 40-70M.

Pjanic has already been declining for 1-2 years. We all know what happens to most players' value when hitting the 30ies.

Here, a better midfielder, 3 years older:

1611690184358.png
 
singus

singus

Senior Member
#967
Sep 22, 2020
2,073
#967
s4tch said:
arthur was bought for 72m. period. his historical book value is ~72m, minus yearly amortization, plus eventual bonuses. let's suppose no bonus will be paid. in that case, his book value for the next 4 (30th of june) summer will look like this:
1611665949470.png
Click to expand...
So your argument here assumes that we just let Arthurs contract expire?

- - - Updated - - -

Bjerknes said:
This is all assuming Arthur lives up to his price tag, which currently he isn't, so there's that.
Click to expand...
Here we are assuming things goes like things usually goes. It seems the counterpart of this argument assumes that Arthur flops and Pjanic resurrects and becomes a machine that can go on for 5-8 years more , and there is also the assumption that we just let Arthurs' contract expire.
 
Boksic

Boksic

Senior Member
#968
May 11, 2005
13,395
#968
singus said:
So your argument here assumes that we just let Arthurs contract expire?
Click to expand...
He is explaining the accounting treatment of the transfer and how it is treated for FFP.

If we extended his contract in the next 5 years his value in the accounts would change but the rules are that we need to account for him based on his current contract.

Market value is different.
 
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