American NFL Football (23 Viewers)

[KB824]

@Dru and other smart people

What do you hope Giants do in the offseason? New defensive coordinator? Special team?

Their offensive line is atrocious, which is weird considering that it has been bad for the last few years and they can't seem to get it together.

Quite frankly, they need help on both sides of their respective lines

 

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[acmilan]

i just want cutler out too..and bring that niners coach and promote a rookie as a qb or something..

something > nothing

welcome to the bright side of the moon

 

[Völler]

Their offensive line is atrocious, which is weird considering that it has been bad for the last few years and they can't seem to get it together.

Quite frankly, they need help on both sides of their respective lines

I meant more in terms of coaching. The o-line is definitely terrible, agreed.

 

[KB824]

It's a game of attrition for everybody, some years more so than others. The Pats were ravaged both on O and D last year too - shit happens, you know.

I was mostly referring to Harbaugh leaving and his falling out with management/ownership, which I think negatively affected the locker room and consequently the entire season for the 9ers more so than say individual injuries to important players (like Bowman and Willis). It could also explain how come so many important leaders for the team, on and off the field, all went missing, all at the same time.

Wonder if you think there was any truth to the rumors of Harbaugh losing (part of) the locker room or was that just smokescreen put out there by the owners to more easily justify (and minimize any potential fallout from) Harbaugh's inevitable removal?

My guess is it wasn't just about money but just as much redistribution of credit and power gong forward. I can see the 9ers not wanting to make him the highest paid coach in the NFL without having won a SB but maybe they didn't have to anyway - 7 mil as opposed to 8 mil would have sufficed, imo. It's hard to see them take a risk in losing the coach, who revived the franchise, over a mil here and a mil there. And, when all is said and done, it wouldn't be too hard to argue that he does deserve to be paid top dollar even without a Lombardi (yet). That makes me think what made Michigan the more attractive option (over staying with the 9ers and in the NFL in general), may have had more to do with being given more power and control, more so than the figure "8" ... and there is the added bonus of less stress too.

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He is the one and only true MVP for me.
Murray could be in the convo but he'd have done jack-all without that OL-ine.
Rogers should be able to score more than a pathetic 20 or so pts in away games too, even if I am sure the "NFL darling" factor will come thru for him in a year where the other suck-till-dry fan and media favorite - Peyton "the choke artist" Manning - has looked as done as an over-cooked slice of dead meat.

Then that would insinuate that ownership and management sabotaged a Super Bowl talent team for the sake of their own agenda in trying to prove a point. I can't see that happening, or I should say, that I don't want to believe they would do something like that.

If parts of the locker room were lost by Harbaugh, then chances are that it could very well have been true. His demeanor has long been perceived that it is acceptable provided that they are winning, but can be quite grating if the opposite is happening. But, "winning" in San Francisco, and what that means, is more along the lines of New England's, or Green Bay's, or more recently Seattle's line of thought in regards to that, than say, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or the Jets. 3 straight NFC Championships and a Super Bowl appearance are great for 80% of the league, but the 49ers, and their perception of a successful season, are more in line with the upper echelon teams of the NFL.

Maybe 7 million would have sealed the deal, but it's not as if he were at the bottom of the food chain with his 5 million salary. That was a very good contract when it was given to him, considering that he had no NFL head coaching experience before this, and had 2 years as a QB coach over a decade ago. This isn't a Bruce Allen or Pettine type of hiring when it was made. This wasn't a guy they were getting on the cheap. He was the hottest name in college coaching at the time, and the 49ers paid him accordingly. Most of the coaches who are in the 7-8 million dollar range are coaches who have indeed won a Super Bowl or 2, so he really didn't deserve to be in that category.

And if 2 million dollars would have bridged that gap, then it was a power play by Harbaugh, and the Niners didn't blink. The relationship is damaged beyond repair. Whether it is a situation where Harbaugh wanted more say in Personnel, or to assume the GM duties that Trent Baalke has (Which I would have lost my mind if they had let Baalke go because of it), it all boils down to the relationship between Harbaugh and York, and York will always win out.

They took the risk in letting Harbaugh go, because they feel as if they have the talent to compete at the highest level, which they do. They did at the beginning of this season as well, but it turned to shit.

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I meant more in terms of coaching. The o-line is definitely terrible, agreed.

I don't really know what the underlying problems are with their defensive schemes and what not. All I do know about them is that their lines need help, and Eli was atrocious this season.

 

[Völler]

I don't really know what the underlying problems are with their defensive schemes and what not. All I do know about them is that their lines need help, and Eli was atrocious this season.

I don't agree with Eli being terrible. He had to adjust to a new kind of offense, and while it took a few games to get used to it, I think it overall went fine. The O-line made it incredibly difficult for him, and with Cruz out, OBJ was the only reliable receiver. Jennings being injured a lot didn't make it easy to run the ball either. If you look at his stats, they aren't too bad either.

 

[KB824]

I don't agree with Eli being terrible. He had to adjust to a new kind of offense, and while it took a few games to get used to it, I think it overall went fine. The O-line made it incredibly difficult for him, and with Cruz out, OBJ was the only reliable receiver. Jennings being injured a lot didn't make it easy to run the ball either. If you look at his stats, they aren't too bad either.

Maybe he wasn't terrible. I was probably being harsh, as I was using the 49ers game as a barometer, when he completed more passes to the Niners defense than to his own team.

 

[Völler]

Maybe he wasn't terrible. I was probably being harsh, as I was using the 49ers game as a barometer, when he completed more passes to the Niners defense than to his own team.

That must have been one of his worst games ever. You can't use Peyton's game against the Bengals as a barometer of his season either. It's not that Eli has been rock solid this season, I just don't he's the problem that a lot people think he is.

 

[acmilan]

Then that would insinuate that ownership and management sabotaged a Super Bowl talent team for the sake of their own agenda in trying to prove a point. I can't see that happening, or I should say, that I don't want to believe they would do something like that.

If parts of the locker room were lost by Harbaugh, then chances are that it could very well have been true. His demeanor has long been perceived that it is acceptable provided that they are winning, but can be quite grating if the opposite is happening. But, "winning" in San Francisco, and what that means, is more along the lines of New England's, or Green Bay's, or more recently Seattle's line of thought in regards to that, than say, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or the Jets. 3 straight NFC Championships and a Super Bowl appearance are great for 80% of the league, but the 49ers, and their perception of a successful season, are more in line with the upper echelon teams of the NFL.

Maybe 7 million would have sealed the deal, but it's not as if he were at the bottom of the food chain with his 5 million salary. That was a very good contract when it was given to him, considering that he had no NFL head coaching experience before this, and had 2 years as a QB coach over a decade ago. This isn't a Bruce Allen or Pettine type of hiring when it was made. This wasn't a guy they were getting on the cheap. He was the hottest name in college coaching at the time, and the 49ers paid him accordingly. Most of the coaches who are in the 7-8 million dollar range are coaches who have indeed won a Super Bowl or 2, so he really didn't deserve to be in that category.

And if 2 million dollars would have bridged that gap, then it was a power play by Harbaugh, and the Niners didn't blink. The relationship is damaged beyond repair. Whether it is a situation where Harbaugh wanted more say in Personnel, or to assume the GM duties that Trent Baalke has (Which I would have lost my mind if they had let Baalke go because of it), it all boils down to the relationship between Harbaugh and York, and York will always win out.

They took the risk in letting Harbaugh go, because they feel as if they have the talent to compete at the highest level, which they do. They did at the beginning of this season as well, but it turned to shit.

It doesn't have to go as far as "sabotaging" a talented team but mere miscalculation on the part of the 9er ownership when it comes to the importance of Harbaugh's role in the grand scheme of things. Once you go beyond that point of no repair, it becomes a game of saving face.

I can see how one can have a soft spot for Baalke but I could also argue that the the talent Harbaugh got to work with was put together more so by Scot McCloughan and not Baalke, while the latter got to reap the rewards of having Harbaugh by his side. E.g. the Pats have changed their GMs/Directors of player personnel a number of times during the Belichik era - and all of them very capable people - but the one constant there was BB.
Throw in Harbaugh's presumed demands for more control and pay-adjustment, and it's easy to see how getting rid of him could be seen as the more viable option - doesn't make it the correct decision in the long run, though.
I understand that one can't go back once the relationship(s) have been degraded beyond a certain point, but what lead to that point may well have been a string of miscalculated decisions from the get go.

Speaking of SB talent, the 9ers had plenty of it even before Harbaugh (and Baalke for that matter, who again has had Harbaugh by his side for most of his stint as the 9ers GM). It was JH, however, who put it all together and made it work as a team.

When it comes to whether JH's pay, that first contract the 9ers gave him was based on the market back then - lots of interest for his services, while the 9ers coming of a decade-long period of struggle. One could say they needed him more so than he needed them. Once he proved his worth in the NFL, however, it was to be expected he'd ask for a contract adjustment. Personally, I think he's done more than enough to ask to be among the highest paid coaches out there on the basis of his continued success. He may not have won a SB but he made the 9ers a perennial SB contender with only NE being the other team that could match his 49ers in terms of sustained success over that 3-year-long span.
Ultimately, a future contract should pay you for what you can bring to the franchise from now on, not what you've done in the past (at least it's what a smart owner would do). BB has not won a SB for a while now and has had his contract extended several times since his last SB win but you don't see his pay go down because of that. Yes, he's won multiple SBs but that has no relevance to how many titles he may or may not win NE in the future. They keep him there, and keep raising his pay, because he's kept the team competitive year after year and Kraft feels he gives them the best chance to win again. Along the same lines, speaking of Mike Shanaghan ...

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@Dru and other smart people

What do you hope Giants do in the offseason? New defensive coordinator? Special team?

A Giants fan?

Getting used to a new offense aside, the Giants need talent on both sides of the ball. Sure they have had their fair share of injuries but the same goes for just about everybody else and they have failed to adjust and build adequate roster depth.
Also, the Giants have lost some leaders in locker room, while other players have failed to step up to the plate and replace them.
They did the right thing to not fire Coughlin but it's the growing pains of a rebuilding process that they must go thru and that would take some time (load up on young talent and grow locker-room leaders)

 

[Völler]

A Giants fan?

Getting used to a new offense aside, the Giants need talent on both sides of the ball. Sure they have had their fair share of injuries but the same goes for just about everybody else and they have failed to adjust and build adequate roster depth.
Also, the Giants have lost some leaders in locker room, while other players have failed to step up to the plate and replace them.
They did the right thing to not fire Coughlin but it's the growing pains of a rebuilding process that they must go thru and that would take some time (load up on young talent and grow locker-room leaders)

I specifically wrote "other smart people" to avoid your answer. Of course you had to answer me anyway.

 

[acmilan]

I specifically wrote "other smart people" to avoid your answer. Of course you had to answer me anyway.

here you go, sweetness, pull my finger ...

 

[Enron]

Suh.

 

[acmilan]

Suh.

an absolute disgrace of a player - just a notch below D. Raiola in that respect.

 

[Enron]

an absolute disgrace of a player - just a notch below D. Raiola in that respect.

I just saw the play on Rogers. What an idiot. What to up your free agent dollars homey.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I just saw the play on Rogers. What an idiot. What to up your free agent dollars homey.

it did in chicago, would love to have him

 

[Enron]

it did in chicago, would love to have him

Yeah, you guys aren't a playoff team. So his antics probably wouldn't mess things up too bad.

 

[Salvo]

This is still a very talented team. 18 players on injured reserve doesn't help any squad, no matter who you are. When you consider that among those on injured reserve were a starting CB, Your starting Center, Your 1st and 2nd string Nose Tackles, and the best MLB combination in the NFL, you make do with what you can.


The highlights of the season were the emergence of some rookies that came into their own in the 2nd half of the season, like Borland, Ellington, Marcus Martin, Johnson, Hyde to a lesser degree, and especially Aaron Lynch.

Quinton Dial and Tank Carradine got a lot of playing time on the defense, after basically not playing at all last year as rookies.

At least this could make some of the high priced veterans on the defense expendable, like Ahmad Brooks and Justin smith, and they can save on the cap, because the offense, especially, and I can't believe I'm saying this, because I never would have said this at this time last year, the offensive line needs some help.

They had no depth at all on the line. Jonathan Martin was terrible stepping in when Davis was out injured for most of the season, and I really have no idea how, out of all the players on the 49ers, that Staley and Iupati made the pro bowl. The line was beyond awful. The provided no running lanes, and left Kaepernick out to dry more often than not. If you have arguably the most athletic and mobile quarterback in the league, but he still gets sacked nearly 50 times, then the fault has to primarily lie with the offensive line. I'm sorry, but it does. Kaepernick had a down year. It happens, and he shoulders the blame too, but the play calling was beyond bad and way too erratic on the offensive side of the ball.


Kaepernick needs to learn how to look for his secondary receivers, and I think everyone knows that. But at the same time, you can't restrict what he is, which is a superior athlete with a great arm, great escapability , and the ability to make a play with his legs as well as his arm. He's a big play guy, and they need playmakers around him. I would also like to see a more New England type of shorter to intermediate passing game, to increase his accuracy. You can't keep tying to go long if you have no one that can actually do it. Well, I take that back. Brandon Lloyd could do it, but they decided that he was best served as a 5th WR.

I don't know where Vernon Davis was this year. Maybe working at the local Gamestop or something, because he was a non-factor. He wasn't even a good decoy.

And the funny thing is that 2 years ago, I told my best friend that the one person whom Kaepernick would miss the most was Delanie Walker. They are still unable to generate anything with a 2 TE set, because that is where Kaepernick had his success. Vance McDonald can't stay on the field, and when he does, he usually makes a great catch and then fumbles it.


Harbaugh leaving, I really don't get too bothered about it. He wanted to be paid like a super bowl winning coach without actually having won a Super Bowl. There were rumblings before the season started that his style was starting to wear thin. There was a fracture in the relationship between ownership, management, and Coach that couldn't be repaired. 8 million a year to go back to your Alma Mater is really tough to turn down, so I don't blame him. Plus, he gets a built in 2 year honeymoon period with that program because it is severely devoid of talent. There is literally nothing there at Michigan.

I just hope that whoever takes over, whether it is one of the two hot names out there right now (McDaniels or Gase), or if it is someone from within, realizes that this is still a really talented team, and they lost their way. It happens. Oh well.

This! We will be back next year, hopefully with a good coach and some reinforcements, namely a deep threat WR.
I think Dontae Johsnon can be quite good, I am looking forward to see Hyde develop, we have a talent in El Guapo. Borland was amazing, throw him in with Willis and Bowman and it is pretty crazy what they can do, rotating, playing some outside as well. Ellington and Patton will hopefully play more next year, they can be handy weapons. Aldon Smith should be at his best last year, with and Lynch going that pass rush is pretty insane. What about a Justin Smith replacement? Is Tank ready? I am more than certain that Roman had a part in all this, I feel Harbs didn't want to let him go as well. On a positive side it looks like Vic Fangio is going to stay and he has been amazing

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Shanahan might be an interesting option but I'd love for Fangio to become head coach, we would need a really good OC though. I just really don't want to lose Vic and I think he is a better option than Tomsula as HC.

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Adam Gase, Cardinals defensive coordinator Todd Bowles, Seahawks DC Dan Quinn, Patriots OC Josh McDaniels as well as Fangio and Tomsula are who we have contacted about the HC job.
Kyle Shanahan was rumoured but it is believed he will stay.

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I don't see the point in getting a defensive minded HC, or another DC for that matter. We might as well keep Vic or make him HC and get an offensive minded HC

 

[acmilan]

it did in chicago, would love to have him

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This! We will be back next year, hopefully with a good coach and some reinforcements, namely a deep threat WR.
I think Dontae Johsnon can be quite good, I am looking forward to see Hyde develop, we have a talent in El Guapo. Borland was amazing, throw him in with Willis and Bowman and it is pretty crazy what they can do, rotating, playing some outside as well. Ellington and Patton will hopefully play more next year, they can be handy weapons. Aldon Smith should be at his best last year, with and Lynch going that pass rush is pretty insane. What about a Justin Smith replacement? Is Tank ready? I am more than certain that Roman had a part in all this, I feel Harbs didn't want to let him go as well. On a positive side it looks like Vic Fangio is going to stay and he has been amazing

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Shanahan might be an interesting option but I'd love for Fangio to become head coach, we would need a really good OC though. I just really don't want to lose Vic and I think he is a better option than Tomsula as HC.

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Adam Gase, Cardinals defensive coordinator Todd Bowles, Seahawks DC Dan Quinn, Patriots OC Josh McDaniels as well as Fangio and Tomsula are who we have contacted about the HC job.
Kyle Shanahan was rumoured but it is believed he will stay.

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I don't see the point in getting a defensive minded HC, or another DC for that matter. We might as well keep Vic or make him HC and get an offensive minded HC

you are quite the optimist, ain't ya?

would be a lot easier and less painful to just pick another team to root for

 

[KB824]

@Salvo


Just like 4 years ago, when Harbaugh was the one and only candidate that I wanted 4 years ago, I feel confident that McDaniels is the one and only candidate that I want to be the next coach of the 49ers.


I see him as they type of coach who can be a teacher, and sometimes that is what is needed. I don't take too much stock in his only other head coaching tenure at Denver. I believe that he was simply too young and inexperienced 5 years ago.

 

[Salvo]

He sounds like he would be a decent option.

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I still am a fan of Fangio stepping up and us getting a good OC, Kubiak might be an interesting option.
@King of Kings

 

[KB824]

He sounds like he would be a decent option.

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I still am a fan of Fangio stepping up and us getting a good OC, Kubiak might be an interesting option.
@King of Kings

No. Not at all.

I want someone outside the organization. Fangio is very good at what he does, and that is they way it should be.