Able Xavier Converts to Islam (19 Viewers)

[GordoDeCentral]

Before Islam, during Mohammad, after Mohammad, until today, you can see a pattern in the behavior of the nobility when put in the same position as Abu Sufyan. I can't help you people if you think that your shit doesn't smell as bad as my shit or any other's shit.
When you were on top and you had great privileges, you'll do whatever needed to keep these privileges. Just because Muslims think that everyone joined them because they realized that there is one true God and one true religion, doesn't mean it happened.
And yes, many normal people did join them for that. Islam was progressive and prosperous at the time and the place. No wonder many found it attractive. But from 7th till mid 15th century I have many examples (with various sources from different provenience) that show why did the nobility accept Islam or, if didn't convert to Islam, fought in Islamic armies, which makes me think that it was no different during Mohammad's time.
Live with it.


Btw, are you Moroccan?

P.S: And if we want a different source, can we check what do the Shia Muslims say about Abu Sufyan and his reasons why he converted to Islam?

Here it is:
"The Shia divide the companions into three factions: First, are those who
believed in Allah (SWT), believed in the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and gave all
they could for the sake of Islam. These are the highest in rank. These
companions ALWAYS supported the Prophet and were WITH him. They never
disobeyed him in every other issue, nor did they ever accused him of
talking non-sense! (may Allah protect us). Examples include, but are not
limited to, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (AS), Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, Salman al-Farsi,
Miqdad, Amar Ibn Yasir, Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari, ... may Allah (SWT)
be pleased with them.

The second group, are those who were Muslims, but were not sincere in
their acts.

The third group, are those who became apostate after the death of Prophet
as al-Bukhari recorded (see below), or those who neither believed in Allah
(SWT), nor the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the first place, but managed to
infiltrate the Islamic isles to be included among the Muslims. These are
the hypocrites, like Abu Sufyan, his son Muawiyah, and his grandson Yazid.
Yazid, when he became caliph, said:
"Hashimite played with the throne, but no revelation was revealed, nor
was there a true message!!!""
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/shia4.txt

first and foremost dont call me you people, i never said i was a muslim/jew/hindu. Instead of all this speculation i asked you a simple question. sure its answer wont be in wikipedia, but it's still a simple question in what state did he die? let's simply look at the few fact we know, mmh say like historians would.
See Alen, thats where you cant fool me, you, at your own personal convenience and preference, choose the scientific method when it suits you yet very nimbly switch to the same hearsay you accuse your antagonists of. We both know you know nothing of the subject, i wonder why you keep on arguing, convenient ignorance maybe or is it mental masturbation?

As for where i am from? if it is any help for you to actually answer the questions i ask you then i ll be glad to fax you a copy of my passport.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Zé Tahir]

Before Islam, during Mohammad, after Mohammad, until today, you can see a pattern in the behavior of the nobility when put in the same position as Abu Sufyan. I can't help you people if you think that your shit doesn't smell as bad as my shit or any other's shit.
When you were on top and you had great privileges, you'll do whatever needed to keep these privileges. Just because Muslims think that everyone joined them because they realized that there is one true God and one true religion, doesn't mean it happened.
And yes, many normal people did join them for that. Islam was progressive and prosperous at the time and the place. No wonder many found it attractive. But from 7th till mid 15th century I have many examples (with various sources from different provenience) that show why did the nobility accept Islam or, if didn't convert to Islam, fought in Islamic armies, which makes me think that it was no different during Mohammad's time.
Live with it.


Btw, are you Moroccan?

P.S: And if we want a different source, can we check what do the Shia Muslims say about Abu Sufyan and his reasons why he converted to Islam?

Here it is:
"The Shia divide the companions into three factions: First, are those who
believed in Allah (SWT), believed in the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and gave all
they could for the sake of Islam. These are the highest in rank. These
companions ALWAYS supported the Prophet and were WITH him. They never
disobeyed him in every other issue, nor did they ever accused him of
talking non-sense! (may Allah protect us). Examples include, but are not
limited to, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (AS), Abu Dhar al-Ghifari, Salman al-Farsi,
Miqdad, Amar Ibn Yasir, Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari, ... may Allah (SWT)
be pleased with them.

The second group, are those who were Muslims, but were not sincere in
their acts.

The third group, are those who became apostate after the death of Prophet
as al-Bukhari recorded (see below), or those who neither believed in Allah
(SWT), nor the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the first place, but managed to
infiltrate the Islamic isles to be included among the Muslims. These are
the hypocrites, like Abu Sufyan, his son Muawiyah, and his grandson Yazid.
Yazid, when he became caliph, said:
"Hashimite played with the throne, but no revelation was revealed, nor
was there a true message!!!""
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/shia4.txt

Alen did you just read about Abu Sufyan on wikipedia a few hrs ago and came to argue?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

What argument? You always come up with the most unrelated stuff laughing at people calling them ignorant and stupid without even backing your words. You need to realize that you don't necessarily have to say something when you don't have something to say. This is the way you are: People are discussing a matter. You come up calling a group wrong as if you know the ultimate truth. And that's about it. You only can point out who is wrong and who is right, who is stupid and who is not and nothing else. It's either vanity or that you don't know a thing about the matters about all of which you want to say something.

well let's please then read if it's any help, only our little exchange shall we and see who did all the ad hominem and who actually refrained and chose to discuss the points instead


i answered this to you original post notice how i didnt say anything about you, rather your post

yaaay lets throw confetti i finally found a way to argue with muslims, you people really need hobbies. As for the kaaba, all arabs believed kaaba was built by abraham, a monotheist, as a matter of fact even pre-islamic arabs believe that. Muhammad saw those statues in that holy place as sacrilegious to that creed/line of thinking(think a cross in a temple).
Secondly that argument commits the very elementary mistake of confusing the dogma and some of its practitioners, what are we discussing here? the written or the seldom practiced?

And hoori i find it sad you side your civilized, though ignorant, post with the ramblings of a hateful run of the mill bigot.

to which you only replied to the last sentence, more of a N.B

The sadder thing is vanity. The saddest thing is faking to be someone you are not.

Do you know how is a drum's sound like? It's deep and loud. Its vessel is hollow though. An empty inside with a loud sound. For some reason you always remind me of a drum' construction.

so yes we can easily see who knows nothing about what they're talking about.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Alen did you just read about Abu Sufyan on wikipedia a few hrs ago and came to argue?

the thing is, it's all a non-issue really, more of a musing to showcase my vain self if you will , the point is there are laws on this forum just like in real life and hate speech is not allowed whether you're perceived a hypocrite or not. That last sentence alone ends the argument.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Nay, i doubt theres any hatred at all from any of the latter 4 toward the other. Its just a touchy subject and can get a bit heated sometimes. I'm sure they're all smart enough not to hold it against each other.

It is a touchy subject and that's why I beg to differ.

They are loosing the respect for each other (if there's any left) the more this conversation goes on and it's pretty clear. They might not be insulting that will lead to perma bans as they are all fairly reasonable but it's how they pick on each other and laughing at them, showing how ignorant they are. This sort of topic leaves consequences because it's not something you will forget, it's how you'll see certain members in different light. This goes on, you think less of them, even if they might not agree, it's how it goes. I'm pretty sure there's a bloodboil going on between Deneb and Alen/Hoori, Hoori and Ze. I find it sad that this sort of topic will do that, when we're all on a football forum. This is like having 5 Andries that don't want to get banned.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

you might be right on the lack of use of such discussions, but i dont think any of us will hold grudges, i wont, it's silly to, Alen brings so much to this forum and i consider hoori a friend. we make mistakes we regret things but to hold on to grudges is simply silly.

 

[IrishZebra]

Dusan, it's not as if there are closet Islamophobes here that are reveal a neferious plot or some sort.

E.g. you all know that I detest all religions equally and I'd like to think that people know i'm only ever arguing out of logic and curiousity rather than spite, so much so that I just bought a book on Islam from Amazon 15mins ago.

 

[Dostoevsky]

you might be right on the lack of use of such discussions, but i dont think any of us will hold grudges, i wont, it's silly to, Alen brings so much to this forum and i consider hoori a friend. we make mistakes we regret things but to hold on to grudges is simply silly.

They way you try to make your points makes me want to squeeze my balls.

Dusan, it's not as if there are closet Islamophobes here that are reveal a neferious plot or some sort.

E.g. you all know that I detest all religions equally and I'd like to think that people know i'm only ever arguing out of logic and curiousity rather than spite, so much so that I just bought a book on Islam from Amazon 15mins ago.

I said what I meant. I might be wrong.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

They way you try to make your points makes me want to squeeze my balls.

what do you mean?

 

[IrishZebra]

I said what I meant. I might be wrong.

Fair enough, but if people can't handle a little discussion without bearing a grudge then going on the internet at all is a bad idea.

 

[Dostoevsky]

what do you mean?

Not you, all of you actually.

Sometimes you go too far. Go back and read, you will see arrogancy. Even if you think someone might be wrong, you don't need to insult somebody's knowledge and if you think it's a false argument, beat it, don't laugh at it where you actually want to 'humiliate' the other one.

 

[IrishZebra]

need a step ladder?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Not you, all of you actually.

Sometimes you go too far. Go back and read, you will see arrogancy. Even if you think someone might be wrong, you don't need to insult somebody's knowledge and if you think it's a false argument, beat it, don't laugh at it where you actually want to 'humiliate' the other one.

will do sir

 

[Alen]

first and foremost dont call me you people, i never said i was a muslim/jew/hindu. Instead of all this speculation i asked you a simple question. sure its answer wont be in wikipedia, but it's still a simple question in what state did he die? let's simply look at the few fact we know, mmh say like historians would.
See Alen, thats where you cant fool me, you, at your own personal convenience and preference, choose the scientific method when it suits you yet very nimbly switch to the same hearsay you accuse your antagonists of. We both know you know nothing of the subject, i wonder why you keep on arguing, convenient ignorance maybe or is it mental masturbation?

As for where i am from? if it is any help for you to actually answer the questions i ask you then i ll be glad to fax you a copy of my passport.

Alen did you just read about Abu Sufyan on wikipedia a few hrs ago and came to argue?

Admittedly, Islam, or its history, was never an interest of mine. I only learned what I had to know about it and its influence in Asia minor and the Balkans. Apart from my main field of interest, I find the history of the Ottoman Empire extremely interesting and my main knowledge about Islam and its practices come from there, which, as once Tahir told me, is wrong, because I can't judge Islam based on how one person or one state is practicing it. That's why I stopped doing any comparisons using the practices of the Ottoman empire.

I was never ashamed to actually ask what I want to know but I don't know well or don't know at all. In this particular discussion though, I believe I have enough knowledge about the particular thing I was talking about and first Fred and then Tahir doubted.
Note how I never claimed anything. I only doubted some "facts" and said that there can be another possibility.

As for where i am from? if it is any help for you to actually answer the questions i ask you then i ll be glad to fax you a copy of my passport.

No, I don't want a copy of your passport. I simply asked if you're Moroccan. I didn't ask if you're a Muslim or not. I don't know why, instead of a Yes or a No, you chose to say what you said.
And why would anyone hide his origins here?

As for your question, I know the story about his life, surprisingly even without using wikipedia, and what he was doing before he died, but I can't say that I know in what state did he die. Neither can you.

 

[Alen]

Actually, I want to ask you in what state did he die.

 

[Dostoevsky]

need a step ladder?

I didn't get that.

 

[IrishZebra]

I didn't get that.

to get down of your high-horse

 

[Martin]

As for where i am from? if it is any help for you to actually answer the questions i ask you then i ll be glad to fax you a copy of my passport.

One copy for me please.

 

[Dostoevsky]

to get down of your high-horse

No, I don't like to ride things.

If a speech needs to be held I'll ask either you, Nenna or Deneb to lie down so I can stand on the mountain.

 

[Alen]

One copy for me please.

It will probably be an US passport. I'm more keen to learn more about his origin.