A Pathetic democracy!!! (5 Viewers)

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PhRoZeN

Livin with Mediocre
Mar 29, 2006
15,893
Ian said:
There is a clear and definable difference between armed resistance to occupation, and terrorism. Suicide bombing cafe's, buses, and nightclubs; reagrdless of whether there are children there or not, is terrorism. Bombing airfields, ports, power plants, etc. is armed resistance. Objectively, it's hard to have a problem with armed resitance, but terrorism is another story.

The people who blow themselves up and try to take as many jews as possible with them are not freedom fighters. Their actions do not free anyone. They are simply exacting the revenge that they feel entitled to, in the manner prescribed by their culture and religion. You would have to be a bigger fool than I think you are to be under the impression that suicide bombing achieves anything for the Palestinian cause, because it certainly does not.
Now that you have brought up teh famous word terrorism which israel most commonly uses to back its causes in killing many civilians.. why not define the word itself.

Here is a definition of terrorism according to dictionary.com.

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

To say that Israel is not doing terrorism is either based on useless knowledge or speculating on ones inner beliefs and stubborn desires. Firstly lets break this definition up... "The unlawful use"..

Now I have used unlawful many times I have already prooven that the actions done by Isarel are worldwide reknowned to be unlawful.. if you dont recognise this then please refre back to the U.N Acts that I brought up earliar. Next is the word "threatened". Israel has threatened to do many tasks where civilians are the cause of affliction. However on this matter I must admit Israel may perform more unlawful actions that actions in which they may threat, this is simply because a person who threats is usually a person who gives a warning to the opposition. However time and time again we dont see this as its a matter of instant action when Israel decide to take over a palestinian camp or may as well kill a few youngsters on the streets who are "performing terrorism.. by throwing mere stones at the soldiers".

Moving on I dont think I need to go onto teh next disjuntion which states the word "violence" I have already specified what kidn of violence occurs as a result of israels dominant tyranny against teh palestinians civilians. The next disjunction mentions against people or property. Notice that in this case it is both, its against people and their property and as a result is what would be reknowned to be truely living by the definition of terrorism. Intention of intimidating.. thee few words certainly round up some of israels actions, they do intend to intimidate and a response from the palestinians.. and for obvious reasons they achieve that, tehre is never a case where they would sit back and accept a suicide bombing.. of course not its not in their nature, theyw ont sit back and say to the rest of the world look, this time I wont fire back simply because I am a peaceful person and want to resolve the matter. Nevertheless we see strikes performed constantly against areas where residents live who may as a result have their feelings or sentinements regarding peace shattered. Now I see the question popping up.. well why on earth dont palestine do that?.

Reasons are a) They are not a democratic nation, infact they aint even regarded as a nation. b) History has shown they have followed such principles but it resulting to be only thwarted back in their face.. I earliar prooved this with the Oslo agreement. c) They dont have enough power and resources to help and refute the oppression which they face daily.. on the contrary israel does not face such oppression simply because they are divided state and lives in independence. I have already prooven this by the the wall division and secondly by the large amount of support provided by the Americans. d) They do not have enough power to spread the news of such ceasefire or resistance which they have stopped and I have also proven this with my post on how media is controlled. And foremost e) They are as a result of israels actions losing more civilians by both methods killing and finally capturing, this as a result psychologically provides the average palestinian no belief in peace.

Moving on.. now armed resistance is clearly a matter of what a person has in terms of weaponry is what he can use. Also whe in idelogical or guerilla warfare whatever you may use to call it..Such resistance only produces the best results through its yield in productivity. What do I mean by this? As I said earliar.. To fight with a klashinov or any other gun would lead in more deaths for the palestinians. These deaths would be very easy for a nation like israel who are one of the most armed country in the world and the ONLY country that actually posess nuclear warfare in the arab region. Ignoring the nuclear warfare matter it has some of teh most sophisticated weaponry that it can fire missles and as a result very easily kill the "guerillas". Now only solution in which they can actually create a greater yield of production and outcry there voice in armed resistance is by yes indeed the word you hate the most and one that brings shivers across your spine... suicide bombing. I have already said earliar on that I hate that tactic, nevertheless it remains one of the only choice to actually bring some sort of "shiver" to the israelis. This is more of a psychological war but at the end it is seen on ground of this as terrorism. Palestine itself does not have an army unfortunately simply because it is not a clear recognised state therefore the people who may fight against the oppression it country recieves is clearly regarded as the army of the people as as time has gone on, this itself has been proven with the elections with hamas. People are losing the feeling of peace and rightly so, simply because the world has not done enough to help both nations live upto their agreement. Once again the Oslo agreement was vital to this yet it was broken by guess who. I have already prooven this if unsure then go back to my original post a few pages back. Therefore very clearly and precisely they are both regarded to be the same, infact they both are the same, you wont a single war out there in the world in which innocent people have not died, terrorism itself exists amongst many wars ane sometimes equally on both sides and sometimes not.. in this case it is very clear, its israel who has teh upper hand in terrorism, why you ask? as I have prooven by teh definition they have lived to proove all the disjunctions in the sentence and rhetorically brought it to be a conjunction of all the sentence. This is by not only destroying peoples home.. but also killing them. As a result what the palestinians have done is just killed, some may say brutal some may say may say its nothing compared to being killed cold blooded, that itself shall remain debated.

As for your your second mini paragraph, yes they aint exactly freedom fighters but they are trying to resolve an issue in retaliation, to some extent this is freedom because freedom will never exist but to resist an occupation, to resist the opression, to resist the tyranny is itself freedom, it may bring more harm in the end but every palestinian and every person who may be victimised would feel the exact way, they seek help, no help is provided as a result more dollars are sent to israel for ammunition. They seek support, no support is sent, they have no alternative, they have sat on desks, worn there favourite suits but nothing has helped. The people of PLO were nothing more than money scvangers themselfs and to a certain extent played a vital role and helping israel more than their own people. The people who may be regarded as terrorists now are infact more related to their people, they care more, they certainly would give there live for them, which shows that they are prepared to do absolutely anything to gain freedom and yes even if it involves an eye for an eye.

The people who blow themselves up and try to take as many jews as possible with them are not freedom fighters. Their actions do not free anyone. They are simply exacting the revenge that they feel entitled to, in the manner prescribed by their culture and religion. You would have to be a bigger fool than I think you are to be under the impression that suicide bombing achieves anything for the Palestinian cause, because it certainly does not. As for your mini statement regarding me to be a bigger fool or whatever, I dont really care what you may think of me, or any other pro palestinian, the bottom line is they really dont have much of an alternative, the only alternative is.. and I repeat is more international pressure, especially on the country who has broken countless UN regulations.

The president of that country nevertheless portrays his hatred and as always has sparked his feelings amongst the residence of israel from the early days, Sharon told magazine Ouze Merham in 1956 "I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do." There are other statements made by Sharon and his cabinet with similar ideology; however, one is enough. Though Sharon's hatred for Palestinians is documented, the United States continues to support Israel. President Bush even went so far as to call Sharon a nice and peaceful man in a speech of his on 17 April 2004. This comment on Sharon’s character is an abomination to any peace loving person. I say no more, let your own minds percieve what you may be destined to feel...
 

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Jul 12, 2002
5,666
Zé Tahir said:
Again, have you not read the history behind the creation of Israel? Israel was created through the same terrorist acts as the Palestinians are trying right now. Just because it's been over 50 years doesn't mean the world should forget this. I don't blame you for not knowing though, since the media nevershows this.
I know about the creation of Israel. I just wasn't aware that the Jews conquered the country by blowing up all the cafe's, nightclubs, and buses...

Zé Tahir said:
In a manner prescribed their culture and religion? Hmm...and how old is this culture and religion? Is there something special about 20th Century that radically changed this culture and religion? Does that make any sense? These cultures and religions have existed longer than these events, it's ignorant to make such remarks.
Just because culture and religion exist independent of the situation does not mean that they have no bearing. Are you honestly trying to say that the Palestinians wouldn't act differently if they weren't Muslim Arabs?


Zé Tahir said:
So you're asking the Palestinians to be thankful to the Israelis for acknowledging their right to exist, when the very land Israel lies on belongs to them? So I can enter and take over your house and then be "generous" to offer you a room in it...I see no logic in this.
You see no logic in this because you take too much for granted. You assume that it is self-evident that the land belongs to the Palestinians. At this point, that assumption is unworkable. Compromises must be made.

Zé Tahir said:
Listen, if you feel that Israel has a right to exist, then please invite them to your home. You wouldn't like it if I invited my guests to stay at your place, that just doesn't make any sense. Please, show the world your hospitality. I'm sure no Arab in the world would mind an Israeli state somewhere in the UK or what ever place you consider home.
I don't have a "home", I'm not nationalist. And I would be happy to live peaceably with whomever desires to live near me.
 
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ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #544
    Ian said:
    I know about the creation of Israel. I just wasn't aware that the Jews conquered the country by blowing up all the cafe's, nightclubs, and buses...
    Unfortunately for you, yes...

    For example, one VEGETABLES market was bombed 6 times in 1948 by Haganah, Stern and Ergun terrorist gangs in Yafa city, the city which was replaced by Tel Aviv now...They bombed this market and many civilian places all around Palestine to make Palestinians be scared for their lives and escape to other countries...

    Unfortunately, many Palestinians at that time were cowards and ran like chicken looking for a peaceful solution for the aliens who came from all over the World to take their lands...

    Until now, we still suffer their coward decision of leaving. And the good thing is that not everybody was stupid enough to make such decision. Around half of the Palestinians are still there refusing to leave their lands...

    Ian said:
    Just because culture and religion exist independent of the situation does not mean that they have no bearing. Are you honestly trying to say that the Palestinians wouldn't act differently if they weren't Muslim Arabs?
    :D Don't tell me that Vietnamese people were Arabs or Muslims, because I can't handle such great information:D

    Tamil tigers have nothing to do with Arabs and Muslims...

    South Africa too is not an Arab or Muslim country, if you care...

    Ian said:
    You see no logic in this because you take too much for granted. You assume that it is self-evident that the land belongs to the Palestinians. At this point, that assumption is unworkable. Compromises must be made.
    Compromises should be reached by the two parties...

    Lands for Peace...

    Palestinians offered peace. What did the Israelis offered?? Nothing...

    Ian said:
    I don't have a "home", I'm not nationalist. And I would be happy to live peaceably with whomever desires to live near me.
    This is correct...

    I also would like to live peacefully NEAR anybody...

    But don't you think it won't be fair if he's living in my house, and I'm looking for a country that may accept me...And you want me to smile whenever I see him talking from my house!!!
     
    May 4, 2004
    11,622
    Ian said:
    I have said repeatedly that killing in general is wrong. I have said repeatedly that the Israelis are wrong, just as are the Palestinians. The issue arises that I feel that the circle of violence is driven mostly by the Palestinians, but also by neighboring arab countries. I believe that the Israelis have a right to a state, as much as the Palestinians. It is my ascertion that because Israel has acknowleged the necessity of a Palestinian state, that it is the failure of the Palestinians to accept the Israeli state which causes the continued civilian deaths on both sides.

    I certainly hope that you don't think that I find no wrong with Israel. It is simply that the wrongs they are accused of do not justify a campaign of terror against their civilians.
    You seem to be using the word Terror when speaking about the Palestinians..
    Why ? Dont you think what Israel is dowing can be called Terror..
    Imo What the Palestinians are dowing, If thats called Terror, then the Israelis are worse then just Terrorist's.............

    Again, i call the Palestinians Freedom Fighters, EVEN if u think, they aint getting any freedom by blowing stuff up... IMO thats the only choise they got..!
     

    un altro alex

    Senior Member
    Jan 15, 2006
    633
    Juve_Kosova said:
    You seem to be using the word Terror when speaking about the Palestinians..
    Why ? Dont you think what Israel is dowing can be called Terror..
    Imo What the Palestinians are dowing, If thats called Terror, then the Israelis are worse then just Terrorist's.............

    Again, i call the Palestinians Freedom Fighters, EVEN if u think, they aint getting any freedom by blowing stuff up... IMO thats the only choise they got..!
    one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. that's the whole point, and it's never going to change. for there to be cause, there must also be someone who supports it

    stay tuned for the next part of "Words of Wisdom"
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    Ian said:
    I know about the creation of Israel. I just wasn't aware that the Jews conquered the country by blowing up all the cafe's, nightclubs, and buses...
    Then read up on that ;)

    Just because culture and religion exist independent of the situation does not mean that they have no bearing. Are you honestly trying to say that the Palestinians wouldn't act differently if they weren't Muslim Arabs?
    Yes I honestly am! Anyone, regardless of their religion, would have done the same. History is filled with such events....do you honestly not know this?


    You see no logic in this because you take too much for granted. You assume that it is self-evident that the land belongs to the Palestinians. At this point, that assumption is unworkable. Compromises must be made.
    I actually agree with you on this. That now that Israel is there, and has existed for about 58 years, the Palestinians should realize that they're can't be rid off and that some kind of solution where co-existence is possible should be made. But! That's an outside point-of-view. I can't possibly, nor anyone else, imagine how a Palestinian feels about this, because they live this nightmare day in and day out. For example, only a mother can feel the real pain of losing a child.


    I don't have a "home", I'm not nationalist. And I would be happy to live peaceably with whomever desires to live near me.
    Well, no suprise here, most Western Europeans don't have nationalism....maybe because their countries have existed for centuries. Young nations, and nations under threat do have a lot of nationalism. I'm sure you would live peacebly with whomever desires to live near you, but what if these people forcebly enter your area and claim your land because of a divine promise? Inviting and welcoming someone to your home is very different from inviting yourself and taking over.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    ReBeL said:
    Unfortunately for you, yes...

    For example, one VEGETABLES market was bombed 6 times in 1948 by Haganah, Stern and Ergun terrorist gangs in Yafa city, the city which was replaced by Tel Aviv now...They bombed this market and many civilian places all around Palestine to make Palestinians be scared for their lives and escape to other countries...

    Unfortunately, many Palestinians at that time were cowards and ran like chicken looking for a peaceful solution for the aliens who came from all over the World to take their lands...

    Until now, we still suffer their coward decision of leaving. And the good thing is that not everybody was stupid enough to make such decision. Around half of the Palestinians are still there refusing to leave their lands...
    Fine. Israel are a bunch of terrorists, but you are fine with terrorism, so what's the problem if the jews are just that much better at it?

    ReBeL said:
    :D Don't tell me that Vietnamese people were Arabs or Muslims, because I can't handle such great information:D

    Tamil tigers have nothing to do with Arabs and Muslims...

    South Africa too is not an Arab or Muslim country, if you care...
    The Vietnamese and South Africans do not act like the Palestinians. There are serious differences.

    ReBeL said:
    Compromises should be reached by the two parties...

    Lands for Peace...

    Palestinians offered peace. What did the Israelis offered?? Nothing...
    Right or wrong, Israel could have all the land. They have offered Palestine land, but all they offer in return is violence.


    ReBeL said:
    This is correct...

    I also would like to live peacefully NEAR anybody...

    But don't you think it won't be fair if he's living in my house, and I'm looking for a country that may accept me...And you want me to smile whenever I see him talking from my house!!!
    Stop whining about your house. Do you really believe that Palestine would be self governed if there were no Zionist movement.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    Zé Tahir said:
    I actually agree with you on this. That now that Israel is there, and has existed for about 58 years, the Palestinians should realize that they're can't be rid off and that some kind of solution where co-existence is possible should be made. But! That's an outside point-of-view. I can't possibly, nor anyone else, imagine how a Palestinian feels about this, because they live this nightmare day in and day out. For example, only a mother can feel the real pain of losing a child.
    I don't need to imagine how a palestinian feels about this. I've had worse things than land theft happen to me and I don't go around blowing shit up.

    Besides, look at the Aboriginies in Australia, or Native Americans. Europeans came in and took their land, do you see them blowing up buses and cafe's?

    Zé Tahir said:
    Well, no suprise here, most Western Europeans don't have nationalism....maybe because their countries have existed for centuries.
    That's a pretty weak statement. Most countries in Western Europe have nationalism, look at France and England. I personally don't believe in nations. We are all human and should not have to divide ourselves into geopolitical units. I moved around the world as a child, so that sort of stems from that.

    Zé Tahir said:
    I'm sure you would live peacebly with whomever desires to live near you, but what if these people forcebly enter your area and claim your land because of a divine promise? Inviting and welcoming someone to your home is very different from inviting yourself and taking over.
    Maybe it's me, but I like to share. People would not have the chance to "enter my area and claim my land", because I would welcome them. Part of this whole issue is the fact that the Palestinians never welcomed the Jews at all, even before all the shit went down.
     
    May 4, 2004
    11,622
    Ian said:
    I don't need to imagine how a palestinian feels about this. I've had worse things than land theft happen to me and I don't go around blowing shit up.

    Besides, look at the Aboriginies in Australia, or Native Americans. Europeans came in and took their land, do you see them blowing up buses and cafe's?
    Just Because you dont blow shit up, that dosent mean the Palestinians dont have the right to do so.. THEY have all the rights to blow people that dont belonge in there land.. people that has stole there land..!!!!

    Im suprised how it can be so hard for you to understand it..

    as my sig. says!!!
     
    May 4, 2004
    11,622
    Ian said:
    Right or wrong, Israel could have all the land. They have offered Palestine land, but all they offer in return is violence.
    How can you offer something to someone, when the something your offering AINT YOURS at all ??????????


    How can you offer land to someone, while the land belongs to the someone that you are offering it to!!??
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    Juve_Kosova said:
    Just Because you dont blow shit up, that dosent mean the Palestinians dont have the right to do so.. THEY have all the rights to blow people that dont belonge in there land.. people that has stole there land..!!!!

    Im suprised how it can be so hard for you to understand it..

    as my sig. says!!!
    Actually, it does. The Palestinians have no right to kill anyone. Murder can not be justified. This is not a war, it's a terror campaign.
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    Juve_Kosova said:
    How can you offer something to someone, when the something your offering AINT YOURS at all ??????????


    How can you offer land to someone, while the land belongs to the someone that you are offering it to!!??
    The land doesn't belong to you anymore, if you let someone take it.
     

    Vinman

    2013 Prediction Cup Champ
    Jul 16, 2002
    11,481
    I cannot understand how Palestinians parents can let/encourage their children to become suicide bombers. I would absorb a million bullets to protect my child...my life means less to me than my daughter's, and I would gladly give it up to protect her.

    If the Palestinian parents want to see someone die for their cause, let them blow themselves up, and leave the kids alone !!!
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    Vinman said:
    I cannot understand how Palestinians parents can let/encourage their children to become suicide bombers. I would absorb a million bullets to protect my child...my life means less to me than my daughter's, and I would gladly give it up to protect her.

    If the Palestinian parents want to see someone die for their cause, let them blow themselves up, and leave the kids alone !!!
    Don't need to go far to give you an analogy for this Vinni. Whenever there's a conflict, it is the young who are always "sacrificed", i.e. who have to pay the price. Who is dying in Iraq right now? The sons and daughters of Americans.
     

    GordoDeCentral

    Diez
    Moderator
    Apr 14, 2005
    69,446
    Ian said:
    Actually, it does.
    The Palestinians have no right to kill anyone.
    Murder can not be justified.
    This is not a war, it's a terror campaign.

    Your syllogisms are contradictory at best, and lack any sort of logic.
    So if the palestinians have no right to kill anyone, that would be inclusive of murder, war, executive branch... but you come back and retract by singling out war as an exception an labelling the palestinian struggle terrorism, so much for being mister objectivity
     

    GordoDeCentral

    Diez
    Moderator
    Apr 14, 2005
    69,446
    Ian said:
    I don't need to imagine how a palestinian feels about this. I've had worse things than land theft happen to me and I don't go around blowing shit up.

    Besides, look at the Aboriginies in Australia, or Native Americans. Europeans came in and took their land, do you see them blowing up buses and cafe's?




    Maybe it's me, but I like to share. People would not have the chance to "enter my area and claim my land", because I would welcome them. Part of this whole issue is the fact that the Palestinians never welcomed the Jews at all, even before all the shit went down.

    first, how arrogant of you to compare the trials of whole nation to your petty life, yes it's petty when compared to that of 8 million people.

    Secondly, good thing you brought up the genocidal tendencies of europeans(i'm european too so dont bother) whose history is hardly fit for one condemning violence in a struggle.

    Lastly, i will take you up on that offer of sharing, How about you share with me your freedom. 3 days a week your life is mine i shall do whatever i want with it. throw in also your food, wife/girlfriend and anything you might possess: how more ridiculous can you get??
     

    Zé Tahir

    JhoolayLaaaal!
    Moderator
    Dec 10, 2004
    29,281
    Altair said:
    first, how arrogant of you to compare the trials of whole nation to your petty life, yes it's petty when compared to that of 8 million people.

    Secondly, good thing you brought up the genocidal tendencies of europeans(i'm european too so dont bother) whose history is hardly fit for one condemning violence in a struggle.

    Lastly, i will take you up on that offer of sharing, How about you share with me your freedom. 3 days a week your life is mine i shall do whatever i want with it. throw in also your food, wife/girlfriend and anything you might possess: how more ridiculous can you get??
    I'm sorry, but this is going into my sig. Post of the Year!
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #559
    Ian said:
    Fine. Israel are a bunch of terrorists, but you are fine with terrorism, so what's the problem if the jews are just that much better at it?
    That makes us go back to the first post in this thread...

    Why do the Western countries deal with Palestinians and Israelis using dual standards, assuming that both of them use the same way of terror as you just said??

    Ian said:
    The Vietnamese and South Africans do not act like the Palestinians. There are serious differences.
    I would like to know those differences please...

    Ian said:
    Right or wrong, Israel could have all the land. They have offered Palestine land, but all they offer in return is violence.
    Well, this is EXACTLY the main obstacle in the fake peace process which died afew years ago...

    Israelis think they can live without giving Palestinians any land. Well, I cant say anything but WHAT A NICE COMPROMISE you offer there!!!

    Ian said:
    Stop whining about your house.
    I'm not whinning, you .................................

    I'm talking about my REAL father's house which was built in 1966. And he couldn't go back to it since 1967.

    Until 1985, we had to pay the debts for building that house which we can't even see since 1967...

    I'm not talking about a fairy tale where I'm sad because of the imaginary events in it where the hero can't marry the stupid princess. I'm talking about my own life here and not whinning.

    Ian said:
    Do you really believe that Palestine would be self governed if there were no Zionist movement
    Another magical question!!!

    How could 200 countries in the World be self-governed without those stupid Zionists??

    Why should Palestine be different than all countries??
     
    Jul 12, 2002
    5,666
    Altair said:
    Your syllogisms are contradictory at best, and lack any sort of logic.
    So if the palestinians have no right to kill anyone, that would be inclusive of murder, war, executive branch... but you come back and retract by singling out war as an exception an labelling the palestinian struggle terrorism, so much for being mister objectivity
    Personally, I don't feel that war justifies killing, but I do realise that a lot of people do. I was simply making the case for them as well.
     
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