World Cup 2018 LIVE thread (54 Viewers)

[swag]

VAR is still subjective, but it's an improvement as at least the ref gets to see it from different angles. He also get a little bit of breathing time to make his decision. Ultimately we as fans will just have to accept the ref's decision after VAR review (unless of course the mistake is so obvious you'd have to think of bribery). Personally I find it much easier to accept these calls even if I disagree with them, because of the aforementioned reasons.

Btw pretty interesting to see Brazil get penalized by the ref yesterday. That does not happen often.

You could argue that my position on VAR is ignorant in that I almost follow the logic of "if it's only correct 98% of the time and not 100%, throw it out!" But VAR is still a seductive and deceptive false reality. We are replacing a human point of reference with multiple, sometimes conflicting, perspectives aided with slow-motion cameras and then fed to humans for judgement. And with technology, I feel there's a major cognitive gap with fans thinking that VAR eliminates all controversy and human decision-making when, in fact, it couldn't be further from the truth. It's just the level of detail at which we argue calls now

The romantic in me prefers we prioritize the viewpoint of those in the stadium at the match, on the pitch, in real time, and that the match isn't played for remote robots, cameras, and casual fans watching on TV. But what we're saying with VAR is that cameras don't lie. But the truth is they do, and I am not just talking about deep fakes and conspiracies like that.

Hence VAR to me is just a Sisyphean effort to produce "Truth Theater"... a false comfort in a belief that we're closer to the truth and devoid of controversy when that is always an element of a human game being performed and judged by fallible humans.

 

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[Monty]

You could argue that my position on VAR is ignorant in that I almost follow the logic of "if it's only correct 98% of the time and not 100%, throw it out!" But VAR is still a seductive and deceptive false reality. We are replacing a human point of reference with multiple, sometimes conflicting, perspectives aided with slow-motion cameras and then fed to humans for judgement. And with technology, I feel there's a major cognitive gap with fans thinking that VAR eliminates all controversy and human decision-making when, in fact, it couldn't be further from the truth. It's just the level of detail at which we argue calls now

The romantic in me prefers we prioritize the viewpoint of those in the stadium at the match, on the pitch, in real time, and that the match isn't played for remote robots, cameras, and casual fans watching on TV. But what we're saying with VAR is that cameras don't lie. But the truth is they do, and I am not just talking about deep fakes and conspiracies like that.

Hence VAR to me is just a Sisyphean effort to produce "Truth Theater"... a false comfort in a belief that we're closer to the truth and devoid of controversy when that is always an element of a human game being performed and judged by fallible humans.

VAR is a tool, its not like some AI is making the decisions

 

[swag]

VAR is a tool, its not like some AI is making the decisions

But it's a tool that is changing our locus of observation and distorting our perception of what is reality and what is a technologically constructed facsimile of it.

 

[Monty]

But it's a tool that is changing our locus of observation and distorting our perception of what is reality and what is a technologically constructed facsimile of it.

I reckon its actually bridging the gap

Before VAR we, the viewer, already had access to the replays and were left to jump to our own conclusions

Now the refs also have access to those replays and are allowed to make a more nuanced decision, thus adding more colour to our perception

 

[Jethro]

Balkan i knew someone will fuck up something. We're known for that.

 

[Fred]

You could argue that my position on VAR is ignorant in that I almost follow the logic of "if it's only correct 98% of the time and not 100%, throw it out!" But VAR is still a seductive and deceptive false reality. We are replacing a human point of reference with multiple, sometimes conflicting, perspectives aided with slow-motion cameras and then fed to humans for judgement. And with technology, I feel there's a major cognitive gap with fans thinking that VAR eliminates all controversy and human decision-making when, in fact, it couldn't be further from the truth. It's just the level of detail at which we argue calls now

The romantic in me prefers we prioritize the viewpoint of those in the stadium at the match, on the pitch, in real time, and that the match isn't played for remote robots, cameras, and casual fans watching on TV. But what we're saying with VAR is that cameras don't lie. But the truth is they do, and I am not just talking about deep fakes and conspiracies like that.

Hence VAR to me is just a Sisyphean effort to produce "Truth Theater"... a false comfort in a belief that we're closer to the truth and devoid of controversy when that is always an element of a human game being performed and judged by fallible humans.

That's the problem though, that is just an unrealistic expectation. Refereeing decisions are by their very nature subjective, there is nothing you can do to ever change that. Many decisions even after reviews and replays, you'll still get differing opinions from referees. It won't eliminate controversy and human decision making, it won't give you 100% correct calls, what it will do in my opinion is take you from 70% correct calls to 80%, I'm making numbers up here, the main point is that it will decrease the error rate. Some decisions that are straight forward and that the refs may have missed in real time, will be corrected via VAR. When one refereeing decision could eliminate a team from a cup competition, many times unfairly, I think its definitely worth it.

 

[swag]

I reckon its actually bridging the gap

Before VAR we, the viewer, already had access to the replays and were left to jump to our own conclusions

Now the refs also have access to those replays and are allowed to make a more nuanced decision, thus adding more colour to our perception

And that's a little bit of my objection to it. We knew observations were flawed at the stadium and on the pitch and in the stands. Barring corrupt officials and players, of course, that's just part of the game from the time kids start playing at the earliest of ages.

But what constitutes the reality of the game and how its judged has been moved to the perspective of TV viewers, away from the live stadium experience. And that's driven by beer, car, and financial services revenues ... not really the fans so much (and least not directly).

I of course admit that when you see a play call reversed and it appears correct on the TV, and the call is made in a timely manner, I get the sense that justice has been served and accurate. But then I pause and think that's only because I'm watching it on TV and have access to multiple camera angles and slow motion shots... which is closer to an eSports video game experience than it is to an actual in-the-flesh sporting event.

 

[ALC]

@swag do you feel the same way about challenges in tennis?

 

[Monty]

And that's a little bit of my objection to it. We knew observations were flawed at the stadium and on the pitch and in the stands. Barring corrupt officials and players, of course, that's just part of the game from the time kids start playing at the earliest of ages.

But what constitutes the reality of the game and how its judged has been moved to the perspective of TV viewers, away from the live stadium experience. And that's driven by beer, car, and financial services revenues ... not really the fans so much (and least not directly).

I of course admit that when you see a play call reversed and it appears correct on the TV, and the call is made in a timely manner, I get the sense that justice has been served and accurate. But then I pause and think that's only because I'm watching it on TV and have access to multiple camera angles and slow motion shots... which is closer to an eSports video game experience than it is to an actual in-the-flesh sporting event.

When I go to the stadium, I go to see a sporting contest between human players and admire their human skills...i could care less if its an actual robot making the referee decisions

 

[ALC]

When I go to the stadium, I go to see a sporting contest between human players and admire their human skills...i could care less if its an actual robot making the referee decisions

It’s not a robot making referee decisions tho, it’s still the referees but they get to watch replays of it to prevent them from making the wrong decision. Every other sport uses it and there hasn’t been any issues

 

[Monty]

It’s not a robot making referee decisions tho, it’s still the referees but they get to watch replays of it to prevent them from making the wrong decision. Every other sport uses it and there hasn’t been any issues

ugh, not what im saying...it's part of my thread with swag

 

[BayernFan]

FFS

Do you think Real Madrid fans hate S.Ramos? Do you think Barca fans hate Pique, Alba and Busquets? Atletico fans with D.Costa? Fact is all fans love their teams arseholes, if you really are a Bayern fan, then I have sneaking suspicion you actually love Kimmich.

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I'm a proponent of VAR too. Resistance to change will mean its going to be hard for football fans, especially those of us who have been watching football for a long time, to accept. But I think even if its still subjective, there will eventually be less glaring referee mistakes than without it. Also, I'm sure as refs get used to it more, it will become a little more effective with time.

I like nearly all Bayern players, but sometimes you come across players you dont like or feel any affection for in youre team.

Totally natural.

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I get why you dislike Kroos,but why Kimmich ? I thought he was good,really good RB !


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I never questioned his qualities. Its something about his person I dont like.

 

[DAiDEViL]

FFS

Do you think Real Madrid fans hate S.Ramos? Do you think Barca fans hate Pique, Alba and Busquets? Atletico fans with D.Costa? Fact is all fans love their teams arseholes, if you really are a Bayern fan, then I have sneaking suspicion you actually love Kimmich.

@lgorTudor and I successfully spread the Bayern hate. Soon @BayernFan will abandon his club completely.

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Balkan i knew someone will fuck up something. We're known for that.

Won't be missed.

 

[ALC]

ugh, not what im saying...it's part of my thread with swag

Ugh

 

[Fred]

@lgorTudor and I successfully spread the Bayern hate. Soon @BayernFan will abandon his club completely.

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Won't be missed.

Yes you do.

I hate Bayern too, but only because they beat us so often.

 

[Klovn]

@lgorTudor and I successfully spread the Bayern hate. Soon @BayernFan will abandon his club completely.

you made me a bayern fan

 

[swag]

@swag do you feel the same way about challenges in tennis?

Don't really watch tennis. But then I can't see how that's all that different from football. May as well have video cameras calling balls and strikes in baseball games.

When I go to the stadium, I go to see a sporting contest between human players and admire their human skills...i could care less if its an actual robot making the referee decisions

I like this argument, btw. So the question is then, "Why should this matter?" I think it matters because, particularly in the Italian use of VAR, it completely fucks up the game. Spending minutes not knowing whether to celebrate a goal or not sucks. I'd rather do away with any perceived improvement of accuracy just for having a raw experience in-the-moment, flawed calls and all.

The World Cup has implemented this in a way that seems a lot faster. We shall see if there are real lagging review delays as we've seen in Serie A. But again, this is a cost being imposed on the game by the desire for "Truth Theater" for TV viewers so more beer can be sold. As long as I don't experience those costs, it matters a lot less.

 

[Jethro]

Kimmich is nowhere near Ramos level in being asshole. It's actually BayernFan who doesn't like him.

 

[DAiDEViL]

you made me a bayern fan

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Kimmich is nowhere near Ramos level in being asshole. It's actually BayernFan who doesn't like him.

Stop it. He's a Müller like bitch. No one likes him except for Bayern fans and if you don't wanna hear that, then you might be in the wrong forum.

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Forza Korea!

 

[Jethro]

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Stop it. He's a Müller like bitch. No one likes him except for Bayern fans and if you don't wanna hear that, then you might be in the wrong forum.

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Forza Korea!