Without Religion, would homosexuals be more accepted? (9 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

No, there is no personal "choice" in how you react to certain stimuli. Deciding upon grocery shopping today or tomorrow is a personal choice, just like it is in liking a certain football club. But you can't choose the way your brain and body functions.

 

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[Dragon]

It's all jumbled up generalizations and stereotypes.

Unfortunately.

If we were to ask a gay man/woman why are they gay what would they say? I'm intrigued to see if they would answer "personal choice"

 

[Dragon]

What kind of dudes do you party with Fabi?

What do you mean?

 

[rounder]

So if I say I like the color red, that isn't a personal choice but the choice was affected by my family/friends/media?

It's not purely personal, no. There are just too many factors involved that influenced your decision to like the color red. I like to think about it this way. Imagine you were born in a completely different society which for some reason despised the color red. Everyone you knew hated the color red for the same reason. Chances are, you won't like the color red. Just like how if you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would probably a sunni muslim. And if you were born in Sweden, probably an atheist and so on and so forth.

I don't think there is any way around this. The best think we can do is to question our beliefs and look for the answer ourselves.

 

[Bjerknes]

You conveniently chose to ignore the latter part of my post and my other post in here.

The only difference between heterosexuals, homosexuals, necrophiliacs, and pedophiles is that heterosexuals and homosexuals have the convenience of being 'themselves' because they can find other consenting adults. There is no medical proof (yet) that people are born one way or another. The only issue with pedophiles and necrophiliacs is that they desire something immoral and illegal in nearly all societies, however if these people could control their desires then why not accept them into society? Why should they continue to be stigmatized? After all they might be born that way if you argue that homosexuals and heterosexuals are.

Kleptomaniacs are a medically recognized group and so long as their not stealing shit (which is considered wrong and illegal everywhere) no one hates them. Why hate on 'passive' if you will, pedophiles and necrophiliacs then?

It's a good question, but again, we have to revert back to keeping children safe. Urges will most likely be acted upon by pedophiles in one way or another, so whether they were born with it or not does not matter. Support groups should be in order.

 

[Enron]

What do you mean?

What kind of guys gets you going? What features do you like? Broad shoulders, muslces, soft lips, brown hair, blonde hair, red hair, etc.

 

[Dragon]

It's not purely personal, no. There are just too many factors involved that influenced your decision to like the color red. I like to think about it this way. Imagine you were born in a completely different society which for some reason despised the color red. Everyone you knew hated the color red for the same reason. Chances are, you won't like the color red. Just like how if you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would probably a sunni muslim. And if you were born in Sweden, probably an atheist and so on and so forth.

I don't think there is any way around this. The best think we can do is to question our beliefs and look for the answer ourselves.

Okay, I see your point, but what if I was born in a country were being gay is wrong and realized I have a thing for other girls? Just because everyone despises gays where I live am I gonna stop feeling sexually attracted to girls?

 

[Enron]

It's a good question, but again, we have to revert back to keeping children safe. Urges will most likely be acted upon by pedophiles in one way or another, so whether they were born with it or not does not matter. Support groups should be in order.

Why do we let heterosexuals roam about? They could be pedophiles.

 

[Dragon]

What kind of guys gets you going? What features do you like? Broad shoulders, muslces, soft lips, brown hair, blonde hair, red hair, etc.

It's a balance between personality, good looks and chemistry

 

[Enron]

It's a balance between personality, good looks and chemistry

I'm not talking about who you "like". It's what you're attracted to, even before you speak to a person. Everyone has a certain set of attributes that stimulate a certain part of your brain. That's why some guys like blondes, some brunettes, others redheads.

 

[rounder]

Okay, I see your point, but what if I was born in a country were being gay is wrong and realized I have a thing for other girls? Just because everyone despises gays where I live am I gonna stop feeling sexually attracted to girls?

Absolutely not. That's where biology comes in play. You could be gay but you certainly wouldn't express it as much as you would normally do in America for instance.

 

[Dragon]

I'm not talking about who you "like". It's what you're attracted to, even before you speak to a person. Everyone has a certain set of attributes that stimulate a certain part of your brain. That's why some guys like blondes, some brunettes, others redheads.

So these same attributes make you attracted to women/men ?

 

[Ford Prefect]

Seriously what kind of weak and pathetic argument is that? I can make up any statistic here as we type that 9 out of every 10 Juventuz members usernames starting with 'j' are gays.

Im more than comfortable being heterosexual thank you. As for homophobia well actually as much as the western world seems to be bridging it there still remains a big divide in the rest of the world. If you put together all the worlds population im sorry you certainly wont get 1 out of 10.

Heres a wiki answer for you http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percent_of_the_world_is_gay

Its time you went for 1 out of 20 or expand that ratio even further.

No statistic can ever tell you how many people in the world are ever one thing, because in every hour thousands of people are dying and being born. What i said i have read from pyschological studies which we were given to study at my Christian secondary school. Personally i would feel happier seeing a higher statistic of gay men or women. I in no way feel threatened by it, i dont care what anyone else does and knowing that people were being comfortable and open about who they are would make me extremely happy. I have this weird thing i do where i care about people and just want people to do what they want.

I feel i should point this out now as i think iv worked out why i have caused quite a few arguments by misunderstanding. When i talk about religion, i will nearly always be talking about organised religion, not a specific person, i may discuss logical falicies but that is about it. I do not care about what people believe so long as they don't contravene someone elses right to be free and have their own beliefs. Organised religion opposes that ideology, which i view as a basic human right (freedom of choice). Religious believe should be a personal ideal, and when it is kept like that it is a pure thing, the belief that there is a reason and that there is someone there for you, its not a notion i sign up for but i recognise why people choose to. Organised religion is corrupt, morally and in practise, like raping little kids corrupt, becoming rich from the poor corrupt, telling the poorest people in the world to not wear condoms and spreading aids and increasing populations in areas that cannot sustain them corrupt. If you want to stick up for that kind of corruption then :luckyluke:

I know its off topic, but as i was on a free to choose hippy rant i thought i clear up what i think i have caused arguments over.

 

[Enron]

So these same attributes make you attracted to women/men ?

No. Your brain chemistry in certain areas of the brain make you attracted to those attributes. But yes that is pretty much what makes you gay, straight, pedo, necro and all the other things mentioned in this thread.

It also negates the argument that homosexuality is a choice. Your born with those feelings (brain chemistry) which is why you have them in the first place. Those feelings you have are not a choice.

 

[Dragon]

No. Your brain chemistry in certain areas of the brain make you attracted to those attributes. But yes that is pretty much what makes you gay, straight, pedo, necro and all the other things mentioned in this thread.

It also negates the argument that homosexuality is a choice. Your born with those feelings which is why you have them in the first place. Those feelings you have are not a choice.

Okay, interesting answer... but what about people who at first liked one gender and then switched to the other? Were the feelings hiding somewhere?

 

[Ford Prefect]

Okay, interesting answer... but what about people who at first liked one gender and then switched to the other? Were the feelings hiding somewhere?

Human brains are extremey complex, they can easily create logical falicies and illusions based on outside influences subconciously to alter our perceptions. I dare say that it is innevitable these falicies and illusions would end.

It also negates the argument that homosexuality is a choice. Your born with those feelings (brain chemistry) which is why you have them in the first place. Those feelings you have are not a choice.

I feel it unfair to say that homosexuality is choice or nature, if someone feels naturally homosexual then its up to how they feel, if they feel they have chosen to become a homosexual it is again their choice. I wouldn't impose either ideology onto anyone.

 

[Enron]

Okay, interesting answer... but what about people who at first liked one gender and then switched to the other? Were the feelings hiding somewhere?

If you see a boy who isn't exactly what you're immediately attracted to yet he has a great personality, isn't bad looking, has great chemistry, and on top of that everyone tells you that you would be great together what do you do?

This is where the societal norm comes in. Even in America the societal norm is toward heterosexuality. In like grade 5 (10 years old) you have your first boy-girl dance. Your expected to go out and get a date. Even if you like girls and fail to get a date you get made fun of. At the same time there is pressure on the girls to get a boy to ask her. It's like this but at more intense levels as we grow older. And as you reach puberty your hormones are triggered and you may go out, kiss, and even have sex with someone but it doesn't mean anything regarding you sexuality. This is nurture. And also the reason most homosexuals come out in there early twenties or later in life, when they have a proper support system.

 

[Enron]

I feel it unfair to say that homosexuality is choice or nature, if someone feels naturally homosexual then its up to how they feel, if they feel they have chosen to become a homosexual it is again their choice. I wouldn't impose either ideology onto anyone.

I don't know what fairness has to do with anything. Sure I'm not going to tell a gay fellow that his homosexuality is against his will. But that doesn't mean what he thinks is true.

I've read a lot about the brain. And the consensus I've seen is that even though an understanding of impulses may not come until later in life, that doesn't mean they were never there. The brain controls much of our impulses things such smell, taste, and other preferences are so because thats the way we're made up.

Then again I'm not a neurologist. I just had a subscription to a to a couple journals when I was younger.

 

[Dragon]

You know a lot about this Aaron, I'm glad you came on here and cleared things up

 

[Enron]

Well when you seem to be a magnet for "coming out" parties you tend to do a little research.