What's The Point of United Nations?? (6 Viewers)

Slagathor

Bedpan racing champion
Jul 25, 2001
22,708
#41
That's so clear, I think...
Is it? Perhaps the US, but other than that?

Ok, let me ask you who the murderers you're saying that UN stood against??

And I don't want the thread to become just about how UN deals with Israel like a spoiled child, so ignore what they're doing there, because simply they don't forbid any annihilation as you claim...
You have so far only offered examples of where the UN failed, and used it to motivate your claim the UN are completely useless. That isn't true.

The absence or decline of violence in regions such as the Balkans, Haiti, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia and many other places is mostly due to UN presence.

Yes, things have been known to go horribly wrong, such as in Srebrenica. But they could have been far worse if the UN hadn't intervened.

And the UN doesn't just intervene through military presence, its diplomatic machine is more powerful than a lot of people will give it credit for.

The problem is that it's very easy to point out UN failures (and I won't deny there are many) and that it's very difficult to point out UN achievements because they are not always as obvious. Absence of violence isn't something that makes it to the news, be that on CNN, the BBC or Al Jazeera. But the achievements of the UN are not to be underestimated.

Dismantling the UN and abolishing international law is the dumbest thing anyone could do right now. It's not perfect, but it's as close as we can ever get and more important that most people realise.
 

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Slagathor

Bedpan racing champion
Jul 25, 2001
22,708
#42
Yeah, that came out wrong. My bad. :disagree:

What I meant to say is that humans are not allowed to kill neither humans or animals. And it says so in the bible: 'Do not kill'

I think I agree with Seven on this topic. Men are not equal, all men have their unique soul - an image of God. So of course, they are gonna be different.
Actually the Bible says "You shall not murder", which is often interpreted as murdering fellow human beings because Murder is usually defined as the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

Killing doesn't fit that definition because it simply means to deprive of life, which would include, for example, hunting.

In that respect, one could argue the Bible allows killing, but forbids murder. Meaning it is perfectly fine to hunt, kill and eat animals.

As for equality: would you say God gives people different difficulties to overcome? Such as some people being born handicapped and others not, is that God's doing? (fascinating part of religion for me, this)
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,420
#44
More than 50 years have passed since the UN charter was ratified and the system it established was put into operation. It would not be excessive to say that this system has proven itself sound, even if it has not always been able to assert itself effectively. That is to say, the system, due to its inherent wisdom, has been able to keep alive the hope that the rule of law will prevail among nations, even if, at times, it has appeared so feeble as to give rise to doubts about its validity.

Such scepticism must be avoided at all costs. To renounce our faith in the supremacy of law among nations, given the vast disparities between them in power and development, is to condemn the world to lawlessness, to a virulent Darwinism.

This danger is very real -- so real as to have inspired many conscientious and noble efforts to avert it. These efforts reflect a concerted and steadfast commitment to promoting the need to abide by the principle of the international supremacy of law. One major contribution is this International Model UN, in which you are taking part. I find this programme very encouraging. There is no greater sustenance for the validity of an idea than when youth are moved to embrace it, for then the idea has a future. Indeed, it may hold the very key to the future.



***

Among the inherent qualities of youth is its unrestrained capacity to engage in a process that is extremely vital to human evolution. This is the process of "query and revision." In fact, the failure to invoke this faculty from one generation to the next would bring mankind's progress to a standstill.

Query and revision is the only bulwark against the automatic mimicking of former generations and the degeneration of ideals into hollow rites and rituals. History has demonstrated that the "mummification" of ideals does not prolong their life, however it might preserve a glimmer of their memory.

I believe that all of you here in this conference stand before a very crucial moment. This moment has brought you, a new generation of youth, face to face with the formidable demands of an entirely new age, one that will summon your profoundest and most exacting powers of querying and revision.

It is no small honour to have been given the opportunity to address this assembly of today's youth, and I trust that you will permit me to contribute something of direct bearing to your activities in this conference. I have read the list of topics that are to be the focus of your various committees, and I find them all compelling and potentially productive.

However, you, the participants in this conference on the Model UN, are now being called upon to engage in that dialogue with your world, to tell it what you think and to listen to what it has to say, to change the world and change with it, to enter into that dialectic between human aspiration and the wisdom of history. Yours is the generation whose turn has come to prevent the stagnation of ideals into rituals cloaked with an outward reverence but devoid of vigour.



***

Therefore, with your generation before me and with the exigencies of a new age in mind, I would like to raise a very crucial issue. I would like to suggest to you that all those who subscribe to the international supremacy of law and defend the charter of the UN have a duty before them that precedes all others.

This duty is to seek a reconciliation between the US, the dominant power of today's world, and the UN, the living embodiment of the rule of law above all nations.

My career has coincided with that historical conjunction between the rise of the US as the dominant power in the world and the emergence of the UN as the contractually agreed upon instrument for upholding the international rule of law.

I had my first opportunity to gain first hand acquaintance with the UN system in 1948. In August and September that year I covered a special Security Council session that was held in Palais de Chaillot in Paris to deliberate the crisis of the war in Palestine.

The UN, at the time, was still a roving organisation, with only temporary headquarters in Lake Success near New York, while awaiting the completion of its permanent headquarters on the banks of the East River. Soon, however, it settled into its new premises and I was able to tour them during my first visit to the US in September 1951.

From then until now, half a century later, my career has kept me abreast with the international issues and crises that were brought to that forum. Indeed, I covered many of them myself, particularly those pertaining to this region, from the Suez War of 1956, through the 1967 and 1973 wars, up to the present. Moreover, I have had the good fortune to have met and conversed with every secretary-general of the UN, from Trygve Lie to Kofi Annan.

Over these years, I have reached the conviction, confirmed by events and made more compelling by the transformations wrought by changing times and eras, that unless the US reconciles itself with the UN the future of the international supremacy of laws is in peril.
 

Bisco

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2005
14,420
#45
The relationship between the US and the UN has passed through several phases.


When the UN charter was first being drafted, the US feared that certain parties were seeking to contest the basis on which the UN was to be founded. The forces of Nazism and fascism had just been defeated in a war in which American resources and command played a prime role. The helm of the new world order -- the Security Council -- was placed in the hands of the five nations that had led the allied victory in the war. The US, however, had certain reservations over some of the candidates. In addition there were pressures to place the US on par with other permanent and, perhaps, non-permanent Security Council members. The US resented this reluctance to recognise it at least as the first among equals. Indeed, this was one of the factors that gave rise to the Cold War.


In the 1950s, a decade after the creation of the UN, global upheaval came from the direction of Africa and Asia, where the tide of national liberation movements gained momentum beneath the banner of Non-Alignment. The US perceived Non-Alignment as an alignment against the US. The Soviet Union, for its part, enthusiastically endorsed the anti-colonial liberation movement and grasped the chance to lend emerging nations political, military and economic support to bring them closer to its orbit and to deepen the gulf between them and the US. In this decade, 1956 marks a significant turning point in the history of US-UN relations. The US's opposition to the tripartite aggression against Suez that year was its last major stand as a cooperative and integral member of the UN.


As growing numbers of newly independent nations -- prime among them the People's Republic of China -- became part of the UN order in the late 1950s and early 1960s, the US began to feel that "others" had taken control of the organisation. Its response was to draw apart, to let them discover that without the US the UN would be nothing but words without action, resolutions without fire. For words without action, however solidly they are backed by law, are powerless, and resolutions that cannot be enforced, however just their intent, are futile.
But, not only did the US draw apart, it took with it the major international causes, such as disarmament, nuclear weapons, and space exploration. These issues, it held, were too important to give a say on them to countries that were not familiar enough with their intricacies to make the necessary crucial decisions. It also took with it the handling of international crises, such as the war in Vietnam, the Middle East conflict, and the contest between the superpowers at the time. Here it argued that such thorny questions could not be resolved by majority vote, not with the ever-present risk at hand that cold war could escalate to nuclear war.



The 1970s and 1980s brought a precarious fluidity to the Cold War. The Soviet Union was beginning to show the symptoms of crisis and the Third World had begun to beat a retreat. Over this period, the US appropriated all the major causes of war and peace. In so doing, it not only sought to bypass the UN but, often, to exclude the international body entirely. The arena the US had decided to keep for itself, above all, was the Middle East. Thus, from the first contact between Egypt and Israel in 1974 to the Oslo accord between the Palestinians and Israelis in 1993, the US, alone, steered negotiations and engineered settlements, all outside the procedural framework of the UN, and in defiance of its charter as well.


In the 1990s, the collapse of the Soviet Union gave rise to hopes that the US would take the initiative to reconcile itself with the UN. The Cold War had ended and the confident, fiery spirit of national liberation had deflated considerably. However, it turned out that the US did not want to return to the UN. It wanted the UN to come to it.

In August 1990 the world was stunned by Iraq's bid to annex Kuwait. Many in the Arab world and abroad felt that Iraq had crossed the red line. It was then that the US took a first step towards the UN, after which there emerged a spate of resolutions, the most significant being Resolution 678, sanctioning a new procedure for armed intervention to enforce an international resolution. What is crucial here is that the intervention that took place was not international. It may have been undertaken in the name of the UN, but the power to carry it out was conferred upon a group of nations said to be "cooperating with the government of Kuwait." The result was the US-led international alliance that waved its mandate in the air and acted as it saw fit.



***

The decision to permit this form of intervention in the Gulf set the precedent of granting one party, or set of parties, a free licence to take law enforcement into their own hands. Nothing could more flagrantly violate the spirit of law. The law is that corpus of contractual provisions voluntarily and unanimously approved by all parties to a constituent entity. On the basis of these provisions, power to enforce the law is conferred upon a pre-designated agency, and implementation must follow pre-designated regulations and procedures. These provisions, moreover, are intended to ensure that all actions taken to enforce the law are subject to an autonomous body of rules and principles that derives its authority independently from any one party or sub-group of the constituent entity.

In the case of the UN, the law that received the voluntary and unanimous consent of its constituent members is embodied in the UN charter and its subsidiary principles and articles.

When the Gulf War began on 17 January 1991 under the banner of the "international alliance to free Kuwait," it was understood that the UN charter was serving this goal. After the war accomplished its aim, it became clear that there was another agenda. To achieve it the General Assembly had been frozen and the Security Council privatised.

Yet, the sovereignty of law inherently cannot be the preserve of any single party. The law does not brook monopolisation.

It is ironic that the country that has been able to impose the respect for the spirit and text of the law on all its citizens, from the highest official in the land down, and the country that has called the weak and oppressed from around the world to come to its shores to share in the dream of equal opportunity and the equality of all beneath the law -- it is ironic that this country should today be summoned to support the supremacy of law above all nations, including itself.



***

The starting point of any session of the UN General Assembly is the agenda. The normal procedure for setting the agenda begins before the session, when the UN General Secretariat takes the previous year's agenda, crosses off those items that have been dealt with or lapsed, and then adds new items imposed by recent events, put forward by the general committees, or requested by the accredited delegations.

Your agenda for this session of the Model UN features a diverse range of fundamental issues. Peace-Keeping, Expanding the Security Council, Human Rights, Crime Prevention, the World Trade Organisation, the International Court of Justice all reflect the prime concerns of today and merit our fullest attention and sincerest dedication.

Nevertheless, may I be so bold as to propose to this generation of youth, which holds the key to the future, that you include another item on your agenda? I am moved to do so for I strongly believe that this item should supersede all other concerns, because, quite simply, it informs each and every one of them and increases their chances of success.


This agenda item is called "The US and the UN."

Below it we read:

* How can we effect a reconciliation between the US and the UN in order to secure the supremacy of law above all nations?

* How can we convince the most powerful nation in the world today and the standard bearer of democracy to respect the sanctity of law and the legitimacy of democratic rule among the community of nations, as embodied in the UN?

* Finally: How do we make the US realise that its attempts to reach a settlement over Palestine, outside the framework of UN's authority and procedures, have not brought peace, and that its monopolisation of the Security Council in its dealings with Iraq has not brought security?


Sustaining international peace and security is the most pressing concern of our times. When the UN sought to undertake this task without the backing of the US, law lacked the might to reinforce it. When the US tried, outside of the scope of the UN, the might was there but the law was absent. Fostering international peace and security demands the coexistence of both: the supremacy of law and the power to enforce it.

both posts where taken from the speech given by renowned political analyst Mohamed Hassanein Heikal delivered on Tuesday 13 March at the opening ceremony of the American University in Cairo's 13th International Model United Nations conference
 

Ascension

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2005
1,882
#46
Actually the Bible says "You shall not murder", which is often interpreted as murdering fellow human beings because Murder is usually defined as the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

Killing doesn't fit that definition because it simply means to deprive of life, which would include, for example, hunting.

In that respect, one could argue the Bible allows killing, but forbids murder. Meaning it is perfectly fine to hunt, kill and eat animals.

As for equality: would you say God gives people different difficulties to overcome? Such as some people being born handicapped and others not, is that God's doing? (fascinating part of religion for me, this)
Doesn't matter how you wrap it in, it is a sin to kill animals. In the bible there are 10 commandments as most people know, and one of them says you cannot kill or 'murder' as you say.

Can you honestly say killing a cow is not murder?
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,346
#47
I haven't actually read the Bible, but seeing as it "should have been" made 2000 years ago, I can tell you they slaughter animals in it.
 

Rami

The Linuxologist
Dec 24, 2004
8,065
#57
And besides if we were supposed to eat vegetables and fruits, isn't that some sort of killing...since plants are beings also!
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
#59
And besides if we were supposed to eat vegetables and fruits, isn't that some sort of killing...since plants are beings also!
God created the Earth, including the plants. They are living things. You cannot murder plants, it's a sin!!
 

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