What is your god like? (5 Viewers)

[Alen]

You made the claim that there was a possibility that he faked the whole thing. So its on you to prove it.

No, the burden of proof is on DPFL in this case. Seven is not claiming anything.

 

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[Fred]

Because he said it wasn't possible. The burden of proof is on him, because he has to exclude the possibility.

This is mere logics, fred.

I can't prove concretely that he didn't lie. Let's just assume i will entertain the possibility that he did lie, for arguments sake.

Let's just assume i was neutral on this one, how do you intend to convince me that Muhammed(PBUH) lied?

 

[DelpieroForLife]

I did. Joseph Smith.

And my claim was that you can't prove he didn't lie.
My claim was not that he lied.

Two very different things.

Again for the billion time: THIS SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Why can't you understand this very simple thing is totally beyond me.

 

[Seven]

I can't prove concretely that he didn't lie. Let's just assume i will entertain the possibility that he did lie, for arguments sake.

Let's just assume i was neutral on this one, how do you intend to convince me that Muhammed(PBUH) lied?

I don't. I'd agree with you. You can prove neither.

But that's not what DelPieroForLife said.

 

[Fred]

No, the burden of proof is on DPFL in this case. Seven is not claiming anything.

Like i said, for a neutral he has two choices to make. Either Muhammad(PBUH) faked it, he needs proof to believe that. Or Muhammad (PBUH) did not fake it, he needs proof to believe that too.

 

[Seven]

Again for the billion time: THIS SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Why can't you understand this very simple thing is totally beyond me.

Look, you know the two possibilites. There are only two.

A man cannot semi-lie.

 

[Seven]

Like i said, for a neutral he has two choices to make. Either Muhammad(PBUH) faked it, he needs proof to believe that. Or Muhammad (PBUH) did not fake it, he needs proof to believe that too.

No. They are both impossible to prove. It would be easier to prove that he did lie (if he did of course), but still unbelievably hard.

So at this point it's a matter of believing. And I believe he lied. But I can't back that up with evidence.

 

[Alen]

Let's just assume i was neutral on this one, how do you intend to convince me that Muhammed(PBUH) lied?

He doesn't need to convince you that Muhammed lied. He just needs to convince you that there is a possibility (by giving you examples of similar situations when someone lied about it) Muhammed lied.
I think Seven did that. He proved that there is such possibility.

Now those who are convinced Muhammed didn't lie need to prove it.

 

[Fred]

I don't. I'd agree with you. You can prove neither.

But that's not what DelPieroForLife said.

Then i'm sorry i'd rather go with the testimony of the Sahaba (The prophet's companions) who all said that he was illiterate.

 

[Raz]

Muslim humor I guess.

 

[Seven]

Then i'm sorry i'd rather go with the testimony of the Sahaba (The prophet's companions) who all said that he was illiterate.

You can do that. I have no problem with that. As long as you don't say you can prove he didn't lie, I'm fine.

 

[Martin]

I can't prove concretely that he didn't lie. Let's just assume i will entertain the possibility that he did lie, for arguments sake.

Let's just assume i was neutral on this one, how do you intend to convince me that Muhammed(PBUH) lied?

We don't have to. It's enough for us to say you can't prove he wasn't lying. And therefore you can't prove that the Quran comes from god. That's all we ever said.

And some people claimed that you could actually prove such a ridiculous claim.

Like Seven said, this notion that you can rationally prove god is very puzzling to begin with. It's called faith for a reason.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Look, you know the two possibilites. There are only two.

A man cannot semi-lie.

So what?

By listing Quran miracles I'm trying to prove that Mohammed isn't faking as he can never come with such thing by himself but you are totally dropping that point.

 

[Fred]

He doesn't need to convince you that Muhammed lied. He just needs to convince you that there is a possibility (by giving you examples of similar situations when someone lied about it) Muhammed lied.
I think Seven did that. He proved that there is such possibility.

No those who are convinced Muhammed didn't lie need to prove it.

Nope, Seven made an accusation. He accused Muhammad(PBUH) of lying. Now hypothetically, they are both in court, Muhammad (PBUH) being the defendant. Seven has to now prove his accusation.

That somebody else did it is completely irrelevant. That's like saying you robbed my house, why? because i've seen other people do it.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

He doesn't need to convince you that Muhammed lied. He just needs to convince you that there is a possibility (by giving you examples of similar situations when someone lied about it) Muhammed lied.
I think Seven did that. He proved that there is such possibility.

Now those who are convinced Muhammed didn't lie need to prove it.

Alen there is such a possibility for ANYTHING.

X (or) NOT X = TRUE.

How can you possibly ignore that?

 

[Alen]

Nope, Seven made an accusation. He accused Muhammad(PBUH) of lying. Now hypothetically, they are both in court, Muhammad (PBUH) being the defendant. Seven has to now prove his accusation.

That somebody else did it is completely irrelevant. That's like saying you robbed my house, why? because i've seen other people do it.

But Seven thinks Muhammed lied and he admits that he can't back this with evidence. So it's just his personal belief.

If you say that you're convinced Muhammed was telling the truth and you say you can't back that with evidence then it's gonna be your personal belief and Seven will be ok with it.

The problem is if you say he didn't lie and you can prove it. Seven has problem with the proves you're giving to him.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

No. They are both impossible to prove. It would be easier to prove that he did lie (if he did of course), but still unbelievably hard.

So at this point it's a matter of believing. And I believe he lied. But I can't back that up with evidence.

How can proving he is faking being illietrate be easier?

 

[Fred]

But Seven thinks Muhammed lied and he admits that he can't back this with evidence. So it's just his personal belief.

If you say that you're convinced Muhammed was telling the truth and you say you can't back that with evidence then it's gonna be your personal belief and Seven will be ok with it.

The problem is if you say he didn't lie and you can prove it. Seven has problem with the proves you're giving to him.

I did not give any proof. I am not an expert in my religion, and i really don't know that much anyway. Someone more knowledgable than me might be able to prove it, i don't know. What i am saying is that Seven is just speculating.

"He might have lied, afterall xxx did it"

Imo that is irrelevant, like i said. I accuse you of stealing from me, you say you didn't. i say that Seven has done it before so you probably did it too. Not convincing imo.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

But Seven thinks Muhammed lied and he admits that he can't back this with evidence. So it's just his personal belief.

If you say that you're convinced Muhammed was telling the truth and you say you can't back that with evidence then it's gonna be your personal belief and Seven will be ok with it.

The problem is if you say he didn't lie and you can prove it. Seven has problem with the proves you're giving to him.

So that's a deuce if we can say, what is the point of the debate then?

 

[Fred]

Actually an atheists position is the easiest to take. All you have to do is sit down, ask people for concrete evidence (which is almost impossible to provide anyway) and just reject everything you hear.