Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
116,024
The problem with Libertarianism is that it is strictly based on the individual's ability to live without government regulation or oversight. Basically, they want a completely de-regulated economy, as far as the environment goes they believe the individual is responsible for limiting his own pollution (rich:andyandbarcelona: ), same goes with energy use (people will conserve energy at their own truition:andyandbarcelona: ), the government shouldn't provide health care because the individual reserves the right to pick the HMO or insurance provider that won't pay for serious treatment and so on and so forth.
Actually, regulation and government intrusion is partly what got us into this mess.

And it's not like the SEC goes after the big boys anyway. They received tons of flags on Madoff yet they didn't act, but some guy who caught a break of a deal going through and profited on buying stock gets arrested within a couple days.

Some say Madoffs wouldn't exist if there wasn't an SEC, and it could be true. If there was no SEC, people wouldn't be so quick to trust these people.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,661
Actually, regulation and government intrusion is partly what got us into this mess.

And it's not like the SEC goes after the big boys anyway. They received tons of flags on Madoff yet they didn't act, but some guy who caught a break of a deal going through and profited on buying stock gets arrested within a couple days.

Some say Madoffs wouldn't exist if there wasn't an SEC, and it could be true. If there was no SEC, people wouldn't be so quick to trust these people.
Economically speaking yes. But the economy is only a small part of the libertarian platform.

In areas such as the environment, consumption of natural resources, education, health care, etc we could use a lot more government regulation. Are companies going to stop polluting just to be nice? Now way. Are we going to quit using energy at absurdly high levels just because it's the right thing to do? Nope. While libertarians look like they have the economic picture settled they are very lacking in almost every other area, which is why you'll probably never meet a libertarian that makes less than a 6 figure salary.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,755
There are already people in places such as Cali and Florida having tax revolts, generally becoming disenfranchised with the whole system, and I see this spreading as things get worse. And they will.
The bizarre part is that they're trying to generate tax revolts for taxes that don't even exist yet. And at that, taxes that are being talked about that were no different at the top end than under most of Reagan's tenure.

There's a lot of ignorance out there about what tax rates are here compared to elsewhere, how more taxes could be a better and more efficient thing (e.g., healthcare), and just what taxes that means to people personally.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt as usual...

What do you think about the rumors of Texas wanting secession? Man that would be a hoot. I'd give them 30 years before they're begging to come back.
It is << 1%. But the funny thing is that the last real estate development bust, in the early 1990s, was almost centered throughout Texas. They cause at least as much of the problem as they seem to feel victim of... the chumps.

The problem with Libertarianism is that it is strictly based on the individual's ability to live without government regulation or oversight.
I have to side with Aaron here. We've seen the train wreck that develops even against self-interest when the system is left to run itself. You can say that Greenspan's cheap cash policy accelerated it like a Molotov firestorm. But to blame oversight is to give a free pass to every drooling money-grubber who brought this on themselves.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
116,024
Economically speaking yes. But the economy is only a small part of the libertarian platform.

In areas such as the environment, consumption of natural resources, education, health care, etc we could use a lot more government regulation. Are companies going to stop polluting just to be nice? Now way. Are we going to quit using energy at absurdly high levels just because it's the right thing to do? Nope. While libertarians look like they have the economic picture settled they are very lacking in almost every other area, which is why you'll probably never meet a libertarian that makes less than a 6 figure salary.
Well of course regulating emissions and dumping are important, and that's pretty insane if most Libertarians are against that -- or should I say, for pollution.

At least most seem to be against unnecessary wars and spending.

The bizarre part is that they're trying to generate tax revolts for taxes that don't even exist yet. And at that, taxes that are being talked about that were no different at the top end than under most of Reagan's tenure.

There's a lot of ignorance out there about what tax rates are here compared to elsewhere, how more taxes could be a better and more efficient thing (e.g., healthcare), and just what taxes that means to people personally.

Fear, uncertainty, and doubt as usual...
Well, if my state was effectively bankrupt as I mail out my taxes that seem to be increasing every year, thoughts of "what am I paying for" come to mind. Can't say I wouldn't be out there picketing with them.


I have to side with Aaron here. We've seen the train wreck that develops even against self-interest when the system is left to run itself. You can say that Greenspan's cheap cash policy accelerated it like a Molotov firestorm. But to blame oversight is to give a free pass to every drooling money-grubber who brought this on themselves.
But THE oversight WAS partly to blame. Even with overseeing bodies, banks were still able to toss around worthless bonds and the Madoffs had a free reign.

Nobody is against oversight that works, but as we have seen, the institutions and regulations in place right now do not work. And who trusts this government to actually do the job correctly? These people have been taking the wrong actions for decades and have massive conflicts of interest within their jobs, from anything to owning stock to having friends like Madoff in high places. This government shouldn't be trusted in regulating these markets because it provides a false sense of security to people, and thus they get suckered in.

The Federal Reserve, even though it's as federal as Federal Express (to use a Kucinic line), does act as the governmental body over our markets. And what do they do? Create bubbles, fight fire with gasoline, and create more problems.

What we need is efficient oversight and let the market set interest rates itself.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
116,024

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,755
Well, if my state was effectively bankrupt as I mail out my taxes that seem to be increasing every year, thoughts of "what am I paying for" come to mind. Can't say I wouldn't be out there picketing with them.
Are taxes increasing every year, disproportionate from earnings that are increasing every year? I haven't heard that statistic.

That said, the taxes are a public trust that go into services, voter-stipulated earmarks, other earmarks, etc. When people get laid off, the tax base shrivels up, and where is that money supposed to come from? So they have to cut services, but they can't let schools and roads rot.

You have to be pretty clueless (and I know people are) to believe that the collective economics of the state and how taxes/spending work would not be affected the same way individual families have been.

But THE oversight WAS partly to blame. Even with overseeing bodies, banks were still able to toss around worthless bonds and the Madoffs had a free reign.

Nobody is against oversight that works, but as we have seen, the institutions and regulations in place right now do not work.
But no libertarian is generally going to be in favor of oversight, even if it "works".
 

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